Checking Mic Phase

VivaLaVinyl · 4th August 2006

I'm wondering about some techniques those of you with years of tracking experience use
for checking the phase on drums, guitar amps, acoustic instruments...
anything with more than one mic, obviously.

I've learned/practiced one technique whereby you send white noise through a guitar cab,
and then adjust the mics (with one flipped out of phase) until you hear maximum cancellation
of the white noise.

From a tracking experience, I learned about putting drum overheads to high, by hearing
the drums get really thin as I brought them up against the OHs...

Just wondering if the experienced of the lot might have 2cents to throw our way (us greenies)
with regard to minimizing phase issues whilst tracking.

tINY · 4th August 2006

Here's one:
Don't worry about it too much. Move the mics until a live, scratch mix sounds good and go for it.

-tINY

stagefright13 · 6th August 2006

Or you can use a tape measure and a calculator. Sound travels about 1130 ft/sec. Then add a time plugin for the latency. Or even just look at the waveforms. Or move mics till it sounds good.

Wayne · 7th August 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by VivaLaVinyl

..From a tracking experience, I learned about putting drum overheads to high, by hearing the drums get really thin as I brought them up against the OHs...

I'm curious what you meant by this. 'to high' as in too high abouve the kit?

VivaLaVinyl · 7th August 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne

I'm curious what you meant by this. 'to high' as in too high abouve the kit?

Yes, too high above the kit.

JBRecording · 7th August 2006

in general I always roll off the lows on the drum overheads (unless I didn't mic the toms) so that always helps control any kind of low-end phase issues that may result. I do a gentle roll off from about 125 Hz on down.

thenoiseflower · 7th August 2006

make your self a headphone mix, with related things panned hard L+R ei, OHL and OHR, move the mics until it sounds right, OHR + SNARE move until it sound in phase, then OHL + snare, move til it sounds in phase. bam, then listen to them all w/ the snare up the center. move sommore if it needs it - for guitars its eaisier, say acoustic, body mic left, neck mic right, panned hard in the phones, get someone to play the guitar and make the body mic sound great in its own spot, and then move the neck mic until it sounds "open" together your there.

for tracking and getting sounds, an set of assistant or enginneers headphones are great. but unplug or mute them when the red light gets pressed

Stefan Elmblad · 7th August 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by tINY

Here's one:
Don't worry about it too much. Move the mics until a live, scratch mix sounds good and go for it.

-tINY

I agree with this. Or buy a IBP and fix it later.

thenoiseflower · 7th August 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan Elmblad

I agree with this. Or buy a IBP and fix it later.

- the ibp is an unbeleivable tool, but it technicly ony works one way, I.E. - snare and far room mic are out, you put the IBP on the snare and sort of slurrr the sound, slowing it down so it mached the room in a more musical, tigher way.

sides, i use the IBP when tracking..dude, micing IS VERY IMPORTANT, it cannot be fixed later.

thenoiseflower · 7th August 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan Elmblad

I agree with this. Or buy a IBP and fix it later.

- the ibp is an unbeleivable tool, but it technicly ony works one way, I.E. - snare and far room mic are out, you put the IBP on the snare and sort of slurrr the sound, slowing it down so it mached the room in a more musical, tigher way.

sides, i use the IBP when tracking too..dude, micing IS VERY IMPORTANT, it cannot be fixed later.

Wayne · 8th August 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by VivaLaVinyl

Yes, too high above the kit.

If that is the case then a polarity flip could bring the low end back (and to the original question) where mids and highs go in and out of phase when the path difference changes just a few inches, the bottom end takes several feet.
That would open it back up to small changes to dial it back in.

9th August 2006

Mono button, best test.

A27Hull · 9th August 2006

galaxy audio? i believe makes a device to check phase...

any of you use one?

-if so, how do they work (the principle)?

uvc1977 · 9th August 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lou Judson

Mono button, best test.

paulneedles · 9th August 2006

for instruments with speakers(guitar amps, organs) here's a two-mic tip:
set up 2 mics, 1 close to speaker, 1 further away, use 2 different kinds of mic - dynamic and condenser for instance
get the speaker to make noise - hold the guitar cable tip and/or turn up the gains.
solo both channels in headphones quite loud
move one of the mics from back to front
you will hear a swishing phase effect
find the spot where the noise seems most clear and full-sounding
lock down your mic in that spot, get the headphones off, turn down the amp to normal level, and plug in and record both tracks, or record to one if tracks are tight

if you could find a way to make drums 'noisy' like feeding low frequencies through a sub attached to the underside of a drum riser to make the kit rattle and shake uniformly, you might be able to apply this theory to overheads. I don't have a riser or a sub-bass speaker so i can't try it out. but i may improvise with a bass amp and a synth next to the snare on my next session and see how that works. any thoughts?

4th August 2006	#1
VivaLaVinyl Gear Head Joined: Dec 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 74 Thread Starter	Checking Mic Phase I'm wondering about some techniques those of you with years of tracking experience use for checking the phase on drums, guitar amps, acoustic instruments... anything with more than one mic, obviously. I've learned/practiced one technique whereby you send white noise through a guitar cab, and then adjust the mics (with one flipped out of phase) until you hear maximum cancellation of the white noise. From a tracking experience, I learned about putting drum overheads to high, by hearing the drums get really thin as I brought them up against the OHs... Just wondering if the experienced of the lot might have 2cents to throw our way (us greenies) with regard to minimizing phase issues whilst tracking.

7th August 2006	#6
JBRecording Gear maniac Joined: Nov 2003 Location: Northern New Jersey Posts: 156	in general I always roll off the lows on the drum overheads (unless I didn't mic the toms) so that always helps control any kind of low-end phase issues that may result. I do a gentle roll off from about 125 Hz on down. __________________ iMac 3.06Ghz PT 9 Digi002R Presonus Digimax LT Dangerous D-Box Mackie big knob Universal Audio 6176, Focusrite Twin Trak Pro Genelec 8030a / Yamaha NS-10m

9th August 2006	#13
A27Hull Lives for gear Joined: May 2005 Location: Tennesse Valley, AL Posts: 706	phase clicker boxes galaxy audio? i believe makes a device to check phase... any of you use one? -if so, how do they work (the principle)?

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4th August 2006	#2
tINY Gear Guru Joined: Jul 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 10,233	Here's one: Don't worry about it too much. Move the mics until a live, scratch mix sounds good and go for it. -tINY

6th August 2006	#3
stagefright13 Lives for gear Joined: Apr 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,221	Or you can use a tape measure and a calculator. Sound travels about 1130 ft/sec. Then add a time plugin for the latency. Or even just look at the waveforms. Or move mics till it sounds good.

7th August 2006	#7
thenoiseflower Lives for gear Joined: Apr 2006 Location: Boston Posts: 1,425	make your self a headphone mix, with related things panned hard L+R ei, OHL and OHR, move the mics until it sounds right, OHR + SNARE move until it sound in phase, then OHL + snare, move til it sounds in phase. bam, then listen to them all w/ the snare up the center. move sommore if it needs it - for guitars its eaisier, say acoustic, body mic left, neck mic right, panned hard in the phones, get someone to play the guitar and make the body mic sound great in its own spot, and then move the neck mic until it sounds "open" together your there. for tracking and getting sounds, an set of assistant or enginneers headphones are great. but unplug or mute them when the red light gets pressed

9th August 2006	#12
Lou Judson Guest Posts: n/a	Mono button, best test.

9th August 2006	#15
paulneedles Gear maniac Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 175	for instruments with speakers(guitar amps, organs) here's a two-mic tip: set up 2 mics, 1 close to speaker, 1 further away, use 2 different kinds of mic - dynamic and condenser for instance get the speaker to make noise - hold the guitar cable tip and/or turn up the gains. solo both channels in headphones quite loud move one of the mics from back to front you will hear a swishing phase effect find the spot where the noise seems most clear and full-sounding lock down your mic in that spot, get the headphones off, turn down the amp to normal level, and plug in and record both tracks, or record to one if tracks are tight if you could find a way to make drums 'noisy' like feeding low frequencies through a sub attached to the underside of a drum riser to make the kit rattle and shake uniformly, you might be able to apply this theory to overheads. I don't have a riser or a sub-bass speaker so i can't try it out. but i may improvise with a bass amp and a synth next to the snare on my next session and see how that works. any thoughts?