Login / Register
 
Room Creation after editing
New Reply
Subscribe
krheatman
Thread Starter
#1
27th December 2012
Old 27th December 2012
  #1
Lives for gear
 
krheatman's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Location: Motorcity
Posts: 2,882

Thread Starter
krheatman is offline
Room Creation after editing

I record drums with stereo OH and individual mics on SN,HH,Toms,FT,Kick.Then I use Slate to change all drum sounds to taste.I then edit any hits to get rid of off hits.This means I only can use my OH's for cymbals.

What is the best way to recreate a room if you will?Drums sound too unreal, dry.I have tried mixing them into a reverb,but maybe I am not doing something right.Hard to make it realistic.

Sent from my PC36100
#2
27th December 2012
Old 27th December 2012
  #2
Gear maniac
 
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 185

djmj is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by krheatman View Post
I record drums with stereo OH and individual mics on SN,HH,Toms,FT,Kick.Then I use Slate to change all drum sounds to taste.I then edit any hits to get rid of off hits.This means I only can use my OH's for cymbals.

What is the best way to recreate a room if you will?Drums sound too unreal, dry.I have tried mixing them into a reverb,but maybe I am not doing something right.Hard to make it realistic.

Sent from my PC36100
Acoustic instrument needs acoustiq environment. You must have non-linear walls and ceiling. Otherwise you get a hall of mirror effect on the soundwaves. Drums need more acoustic reflections from the room then many other instruments, like a close micked guitar, violin etc, they have their own acoustic chamber.

A grand piano needs an acoustic room as well etc. If the room is full of acoustic absorbers, then your drum sounds like cardboard paper. Clapping hands is good to find nice acoustc
Johan
krheatman
Thread Starter
#3
27th December 2012
Old 27th December 2012
  #3
Lives for gear
 
krheatman's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Location: Motorcity
Posts: 2,882

Thread Starter
krheatman is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by djmj View Post
Acoustic instrument needs acoustiq environment. You must have non-linear walls and ceiling. Otherwise you get a hall of mirror effect on the soundwaves. Drums need more acoustic reflections from the room then many other instruments, like a close micked guitar, violin etc, they have their own acoustic chamber.

A grand piano needs an acoustic room as well etc. If the room is full of acoustic absorbers, then your drum sounds like cardboard paper. Clapping hands is good to find nice acoustc
Johan
This does not solve my problem.If I move kick,snare or tom hits in the DAW,you can't use room mics or overheads.

I need to simulate the room
#4
27th December 2012
Old 27th December 2012
  #4
Lives for gear
 
Arthurelletson's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2010
Location: London
Posts: 542

Arthurelletson is offline
Can you re amp it through a PA system?
Quote
1
#5
27th December 2012
Old 27th December 2012
  #5
Gear nut
 
Blaine Misner's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2010
Location: Washington DC
Posts: 138

Blaine Misner is offline
Why don't you try getting better sounds at the source?
Quote
1
krheatman
Thread Starter
#6
27th December 2012
Old 27th December 2012
  #6
Lives for gear
 
krheatman's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Location: Motorcity
Posts: 2,882

Thread Starter
krheatman is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthurelletson View Post
Can you re amp it through a PA system?
I could reamp it into a room,that might work with trial and error.
krheatman
Thread Starter
#7
27th December 2012
Old 27th December 2012
  #7
Lives for gear
 
krheatman's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Location: Motorcity
Posts: 2,882

Thread Starter
krheatman is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaine Misner View Post
Why don't you try getting better sounds at the source?
It is not about getting better sounds,it is about getting a great take out of a not so great drummer.
#8
27th December 2012
Old 27th December 2012
  #8
Gear maniac
 
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 185

djmj is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by krheatman View Post
It is not about getting better sounds,it is about getting a great take out of a not so great drummer.
//What is the best way to recreate a room if you will?Drums sound too unreal, dry.I have tried mixing them into a reverb//
Wasnt that your question?
#9
27th December 2012
Old 27th December 2012
  #9
Lives for gear
 
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 501

gogar is offline
Create an edit group of ALL the drum tracks, slide the bad hits left/right to taste, but as you move you will move ALL the tracks, and you can still use OH, and room mics. Lengthen/shorten and crossfade to get rid of the holes you create when you slide.


You can buss or aux every track into a convolution reverb; sometimes I use Waves IR/x with the 'direct' button pushed and find a good room reverb and mix it back in.
#10
28th December 2012
Old 28th December 2012
  #10
Moderator
 
psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: Sydney via London
Posts: 23,303
My Recordings/Credits

Send a message via Skype™ to psycho_monkey
psycho_monkey is online now
If the drummer is really this bad, it's probably better to record Kick/Snare/Toms, then hats separate, cymbals separate.

Most drummers you can edit as a group as gogar says. If you can't get them to hit hat/snare tightly enough together, I'd be tempted to record individually as above, or just program kick/snare/toms and add live hat and cyms. the end result will be broadly similar anyway, it's just a lot less work.
__________________
Recent Indie credits include:

Jack Robert Hardman (New EP now on sale), Morgan Joanel,
Edens March
and High-Tails.

If I've helped you out, please consider supporting these artists as a favour to me!

Major label credits include Pharrell/Alicia Keys, Ricky Martin (Aus #3), John Legend, Taylor Henderson (Aus #1 ARIA Album), Di-Rect (Dutch #1 single), etc
krheatman
Thread Starter
#11
28th December 2012
Old 28th December 2012
  #11
Lives for gear
 
krheatman's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Location: Motorcity
Posts: 2,882

Thread Starter
krheatman is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
If the drummer is really this bad, it's probably better to record Kick/Snare/Toms, then hats separate, cymbals separate.

Most drummers you can edit as a group as gogar says. If you can't get them to hit hat/snare tightly enough together, I'd be tempted to record individually as above, or just program kick/snare/toms and add live hat and cyms. the end result will be broadly similar anyway, it's just a lot less work.
This should work on most stuff.I have heard of this before,just never tried it.I typically mix into a room reverb and it still sounds good,that is until you here it next to a great natural sounding drum set recorded in a great room ,by a great drummer.I am a guitar player,but drums are just so much more important to me when mixing,they have to be right or the whole thing sounds contrived.
#12
28th December 2012
Old 28th December 2012
  #12
Moderator
 
psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: Sydney via London
Posts: 23,303
My Recordings/Credits

Send a message via Skype™ to psycho_monkey
psycho_monkey is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by krheatman View Post
This should work on most stuff.I have heard of this before,just never tried it.I typically mix into a room reverb and it still sounds good,that is until you here it next to a great natural sounding drum set recorded in a great room ,by a great drummer.I am a guitar player,but drums are just so much more important to me when mixing,they have to be right or the whole thing sounds contrived.
A room reverb won't replace the sound of the overheads on a kick. I'm definitely of the "ohs = picture of kit" mode of thinking, not "oh = cymbal mics". Close mics DON'T sound like the drum to me - they sound like the attack of the drum. Room verb might compensate for room mic, but not for overheads.

Alternative - use pads to trigger kick/snare toms, live top kit...the tapping on the pads should be relatively unobtrusive once the samples are in there (and then you can quantise the triggers).

Still - the great drummer/great kit/great room scenario SHOULD trump even this setup - that's why people do it! For the right style of course..for quantised pop rock, it probably won't matter.
#13
28th December 2012
Old 28th December 2012
  #13
Lives for gear
 
Sotsirc's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Location: Bogustown, Europe
Posts: 1,851
My Recordings/Credits

Sotsirc is offline
Isn't there a way to fake OH's in your DAW? I've always thought there was but haven't quite cracked it. Maybe something like the plugin Proximity could be a part of the solution. Would be cool to have a plugin that sounds like realistic OH's. Might be good for electronic drums too.
__________________
Some killer tips I come up with in my everyday audio production work. "Production Tips" on Twitter!: www.twitter.com/MgntcSound

Instagram: magnetic_sound
#14
28th December 2012
Old 28th December 2012
  #14
Moderator
 
psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: Sydney via London
Posts: 23,303
My Recordings/Credits

Send a message via Skype™ to psycho_monkey
psycho_monkey is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sotsirc View Post
Isn't there a way to fake OH's in your DAW? I've always thought there was but haven't quite cracked it. Maybe something like the plugin Proximity could be a part of the solution. Would be cool to have a plugin that sounds like realistic OH's. Might be good for electronic drums too.
How can you fake something that wasn't captured in the first place?

Best thing you could do to "fake" it would be to trigger an OH sample for each drum along with the close mics...but if you're getting that detailed, would be quicker to program it in the first place...and would sound pretty much the same!
#15
28th December 2012
Old 28th December 2012
  #15
Gear addict
 
nikodemos's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Location: Greece
Posts: 326

nikodemos is offline
reamping is a nice idea.....regardless if you have a big real live room or a smaller one , you can use reamping in order to capture a unity image of the drum kit, either in mono or stereo. Then you can work further in this single mix of the drum kit in order to recreate an artificial roomy and ambient sound. Compression is pretty useful there as it can help you tame the initial transients of the drum kit and bring forward the sustained kit resonances and the room vibe.

From what i understand your goal is not to just add ambience to your drum sounds but to re-unite the discrete elements (samples) of your mix to a solid sounding drum kit.....as we say, to glue things back together.

So you should aim at recreating an artificial room mix, either by reamping or by simply busing your elements together but in a different balance compared to your actual drum mix in order to mimic a specific room's behavior, distance and type of mics etc etc
__________________

The Sonic Ark / Rundevilrun records
recording studio & Label
Thessaloniki - Greece
http://www.thesonicark.com
My Personal Webpage
Check my Tutorial Videos Page on Facebook
#16
28th December 2012
Old 28th December 2012
  #16
Lives for gear
 
Nick Morris's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,238

Nick Morris is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by krheatman View Post
I record drums with stereo OH and individual mics on SN,HH,Toms,FT,Kick.Then I use Slate to change all drum sounds to taste.I then edit any hits to get rid of off hits.This means I only can use my OH's for cymbals.

What is the best way to recreate a room if you will?Drums sound too unreal, dry.I have tried mixing them into a reverb,but maybe I am not doing something right.Hard to make it realistic.

Sent from my PC36100
Are you saying you edit the tracks individually or as a group? It should be as a group. Are you saying because of the edits you can only use the OH as cymbals? Have you tried blending in the slate rooms? This should help simulate room sounds for your drums. As for the oh and cymbals, eq and good reverb/IR's can do the trick, just choose wisely.
__________________
www.ElaireStudios.com
Robo-Mic RMS robotic remote controlled mic stands aimed at mic'ing amps
#17
28th December 2012
Old 28th December 2012
  #17
Lives for gear
 
TornadoTed's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2005
Location: Wales
Posts: 1,547

TornadoTed is offline
Pumping through a PA sounds like the best option to me.

As well as compression I find Transient Designer and blending a convolution reverb with the room mics great for shaping the room sound. My room is small'ish and bright, I often knock off the attack with Transient Designer and then blend in a darker, longer room IR in makes for a more balanced room sound.
__________________
Ed Lewis
Giant Wafer Studios, UK

www.giantwafer.com
Quote
1
#18
28th December 2012
Old 28th December 2012
  #18
Lives for gear
 
Sotsirc's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Location: Bogustown, Europe
Posts: 1,851
My Recordings/Credits

Sotsirc is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
How can you fake something that wasn't captured in the first place?

Best thing you could do to "fake" it would be to trigger an OH sample for each drum along with the close mics...but if you're getting that detailed, would be quicker to program it in the first place...and would sound pretty much the same!
Well, isn't that what you do with room sound? Surely you could recreate what a drum sounds like from a certain distance with an algorithm? I know you don't have all the information from a close miked recording but if you have a lot of close miked snares and the same ones from the OH maybe you could draw some conclusions and make some math. Ok, I clearly don't know what I'm talking about and it's been a very long day. But I like the thought of this.
#19
28th December 2012
Old 28th December 2012
  #19
Moderator
 
psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: Sydney via London
Posts: 23,303
My Recordings/Credits

Send a message via Skype™ to psycho_monkey
psycho_monkey is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sotsirc View Post
Well, isn't that what you do with room sound? Surely you could recreate what a drum sounds like from a certain distance with an algorithm? I know you don't have all the information from a close miked recording but if you have a lot of close miked snares and the same ones from the OH maybe you could draw some conclusions and make some math. Ok, I clearly don't know what I'm talking about and it's been a very long day. But I like the thought of this.
Well yes - if you have a sample of the OH, then you don't NEED to fake it - you just trigger the sample at the correct point in relation to the OH. This is how things like Slate or Superior drummer work - when you use those programs, you can adjust or record the levels of the OH mics and the close mics individually. That's what I said above - it's a lot of work, it'd be quicker to just sample the individual drums, program the drum part, and record live hat and cymbals.

But it's just triggering samples. An OH mic above a kit is different to a room mic in that you're generally aiming to record a direct signal from the whole kit, not an ambient picture of it. A reverb generates reflections based on the source sent to it; with an OH you'd need to generate a whole new sound.
krheatman
Thread Starter
#20
29th December 2012
Old 29th December 2012
  #20
Lives for gear
 
krheatman's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Location: Motorcity
Posts: 2,882

Thread Starter
krheatman is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Morris View Post
Are you saying you edit the tracks individually or as a group? It should be as a group. Are you saying because of the edits you can only use the OH as cymbals? Have you tried blending in the slate rooms? This should help simulate room sounds for your drums. As for the oh and cymbals, eq and good reverb/IR's can do the trick, just choose wisely.
I can try blending the rooms.I am not editing as a group if I am moving snare and kick hits.This is why I can only use the cymbals from the overheads and you can't use room mics either.Reamping into a room and recording will probably gain quite a bit and you could get a more cohesive mix,and a more realistic feel this way,even adding guitars etc.,basically creating a new room mic mix.
#21
29th December 2012
Old 29th December 2012
  #21
Gear interested
 
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 13

localrockstar is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by krheatman View Post
I can try blending the rooms.I am not editing as a group if I am moving snare and kick hits.This is why I can only use the cymbals from the overheads and you can't use room mics either.Reamping into a room and recording will probably gain quite a bit and you could get a more cohesive mix,and a more realistic feel this way,even adding guitars etc.,basically creating a new room mic mix.
you absolutely have to edit as a group. even if you are moving the snare / kick hits, you need to also move the bleed into all the other mics from that off hit as well. if you edit as a group, i think you will find this is much simpler than your current workflow.

in other words, when you edit as a group, you move an off-beat snare into position, but along with that you move the room mic / overhead / tom bleed / etc. So you can record a room mic when tracking and edit as a group, all will be peachy.

for your current situation with no room mic tracked, maybe a PA into an empty room is a decent idea. but from now on, it's probably worth tracking the room mic just because, even if you end up not using it.
krheatman
Thread Starter
#22
29th December 2012
Old 29th December 2012
  #22
Lives for gear
 
krheatman's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Location: Motorcity
Posts: 2,882

Thread Starter
krheatman is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by localrockstar View Post
you absolutely have to edit as a group. even if you are moving the snare / kick hits, you need to also move the bleed into all the other mics from that off hit as well. if you edit as a group, i think you will find this is much simpler than your current workflow.

in other words, when you edit as a group, you move an off-beat snare into position, but along with that you move the room mic / overhead / tom bleed / etc. So you can record a room mic when tracking and edit as a group, all will be peachy.

for your current situation with no room mic tracked, maybe a PA into an empty room is a decent idea. but from now on, it's probably worth tracking the room mic just because, even if you end up not using it.
I will try it.I can still get full info from OH on some mixes and see how that works.
krheatman
Thread Starter
#23
29th December 2012
Old 29th December 2012
  #23
Lives for gear
 
krheatman's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Location: Motorcity
Posts: 2,882

Thread Starter
krheatman is offline
Lots of good input here,Thx.I may have missed other threads with the same conversation?

Sent from my PC36100
#24
29th December 2012
Old 29th December 2012
  #24
Gear interested
 
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 13

localrockstar is offline
If you are using Pro Tools, just throw elastic audio on the drum group and be done with it! There's got to be some good YouTube videos out there that can help you get started
#25
29th December 2012
Old 29th December 2012
  #25
Moderator
 
psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: Sydney via London
Posts: 23,303
My Recordings/Credits

Send a message via Skype™ to psycho_monkey
psycho_monkey is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by localrockstar View Post
If you are using Pro Tools, just throw elastic audio on the drum group and be done with it! There's got to be some good YouTube videos out there that can help you get started
Sigh....ignoring for the moment that I don't think EA does your drum sound any favours (smeary transients), this doesn't help you much if your drummer can't hit a simultaneous kick/crash or snare/hat! Beat detective and if you must elastic audio can help lock a good drummer to loops, or make a drummer with wobbly timing but decent hitting ability sound pretty tight - but it can't fix everything.
#26
29th December 2012
Old 29th December 2012
  #26
Gear interested
 
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 13

localrockstar is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Sigh....ignoring for the moment that I don't think EA does your drum sound any favours (smeary transients), this doesn't help you much if your drummer can't hit a simultaneous kick/crash or snare/hat! Beat detective and if you must elastic audio can help lock a good drummer to loops, or make a drummer with wobbly timing but decent hitting ability sound pretty tight - but it can't fix everything.
well if the alternative is slate-replaced kick, snare, tom and a PA-produced room mic, I'd take the smeary transients.

but right on about keeping the relative internal hits tight.
#27
29th December 2012
Old 29th December 2012
  #27
Moderator
 
psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: Sydney via London
Posts: 23,303
My Recordings/Credits

Send a message via Skype™ to psycho_monkey
psycho_monkey is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by localrockstar View Post
well if the alternative is slate-replaced kick, snare, tom and a PA-produced room mic, I'd take the smeary transients.
No, the alternative is to tighten with BD/manually and keep the sound!

There's nothing that EA lets you do that you can't do with beat detective - and BD always sounds better, IME.

Replacing drums is a totally different issue. The 2 are mutually exclusive.
#28
30th December 2012
Old 30th December 2012
  #28
Lives for gear
 
crying1986's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2010
Location: Minneapolis

crying1986 is offline
Convert kick, snare, and toms to midi. Then trigger superior drummer or a similar program that has room mic samples. Done.
#29
30th December 2012
Old 30th December 2012
  #29
Lives for gear
 
Sotsirc's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Location: Bogustown, Europe
Posts: 1,851
My Recordings/Credits

Sotsirc is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Well yes - if you have a sample of the OH, then you don't NEED to fake it - you just trigger the sample at the correct point in relation to the OH. This is how things like Slate or Superior drummer work - when you use those programs, you can adjust or record the levels of the OH mics and the close mics individually. That's what I said above - it's a lot of work, it'd be quicker to just sample the individual drums, program the drum part, and record live hat and cymbals.

But it's just triggering samples. An OH mic above a kit is different to a room mic in that you're generally aiming to record a direct signal from the whole kit, not an ambient picture of it. A reverb generates reflections based on the source sent to it; with an OH you'd need to generate a whole new sound.
Yes I know how triggering works, I'm talking about faking it, not using samples. Just like you fake that a sound is coming from far away by considering stuff like compression, high frequency absorption, lowering of the fundamental, etc. I think it would be possible to create that "whole new sound" (at least well enough to mix it in at low levels to increase realism) by taking into account the position of the different elements of the drum kit, the distance to the microphones, and analysing lots of close miked drums and the same drums through the OH mics. Any reason this would be impossible?
#30
30th December 2012
Old 30th December 2012
  #30
Gear addict
 
stafs's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 496

stafs is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by crying1986 View Post
Convert kick, snare, and toms to midi. Then trigger superior drummer or a similar program that has room mic samples. Done.
This! I use BFD for it, but any dedicated drum sampler with great sounding kits will work. Just load snare, kick and toms, a and play with relations between direct, OH, Room and ambience. Then tweak reverb until it sounds close that BFD room and add it to Oh's. Usually i lightly compress whole drum bus, to glue freshly created kit together. That way i have got some killer roomy drum sounds.

My other method is to use PA and mess around with mics and positioning, to get that 'real' roomy sound. PA must be LOUD! In my experience,very snappy, bright sounding samples with sharp attacks, create more problems than solve, when reamped that way. It's crucial to send right mix of elements to PA. You can remove some mids, hi mids from samples when reamping and dial them back in later, at mix stage. Sometimes it's possible to get decent roomy glue by recording edited and sample replaced drums thru monitors in control room.
__________________
Here and now.
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+ 
 
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
soundbarnfool / Mastering forum
17
peeder / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording
27
Ravian / Music Computers
3
wildplum / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording
3

Forum Jump

SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.