Let's Talk Boundry Microphones

[tINY]

Mostly, the PZMs are good for "unobtrusive" micing where you have a reasonably large, flat surface nearby.

They get used on podiums, in conference rooms and on stage for musicals and plays.

About the only place they really excell for recording is drum overheads when the ceiling is low. But, sometimes they solve problems (like the bottom side of a conga, or for bass guitar cabinets in rooms with modal problems).

Audio Technica has the most comprehensive line I am aware of.



-tINY

[JustMastering]

Originally Posted by tINY

About the only place they really excell for recording is drum overheads when the ceiling is low. But, sometimes they solve problems (like the bottom side of a conga, or for bass guitar cabinets in rooms with modal problems).

+1. I've had great luck with them recording loud instruments in difficult rooms. Eg, recording a grand piano in a small room. Ambience micing for drums is a gear use, too.

Cheers!
Rob

[mlange]

I like them as room mics on drums, placing them in unusual locations within guitar combo cabs, & on a piano's soundboard. Some have a flatter response than others - some models have a nice rise on the top-end.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by Jazz Noise

Has anyone any experience with them? I certainly see people talk of them but I can't find any shootouts. Any experience with different boundry mics? Any closet boundry mic fiends? What's good, what sux? Do you prefer to just lie your condensors on the ground?

Any comment is welcome!

Even Yours

As Tiny says, the ATs seem to have it covered. I own a few Shure 91s. I've used several different manufacturers offerings in several ways and never found them to be the prefect replacement for anything else. You should look into the design and how they are supposed to work, as people tend to arrange them in a way that defeats the design. Mounting them on a large panel improves response. A friend had a pair on tall stands mounted on Lucite panels which he used to record big bands and smaller orchestras. People mount them inside kick drums. They can often be found lined across the front apron of stages for performances like plays, operas, etc. I had one mounted on the studio wall for a while to use as the third mic in a close mic/short distance mic/long distance mic setup for ambiance. I think they are more useful for the A/V and boardroom circuit than for music recording or sound work, but there can be uses for most any mic, depending. The Crowns and Radio Shacks are okay, certainly cheap enough.

[dlmorley]

I like mine as room mics. I recorded a writing session in my living room (piano, acoustic guitar and vocals) with my Audio Technica (871r I believe) as well as close mics and they added a really nice room sound. I really like them for that and I got my pair on ebay for something like €150.

[Jazz Noise]

Another question. I see some spec'd as Cardiod and some as Omni. Surely they should all be half-Omni, unless they're using multiple capsules?

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by Jazz Noise

Another question. I see some spec'd as Cardiod and some as Omni. Surely they should all be half-Omni, unless they're using multiple capsules?

PZM (microphone) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Jazz Noise]

Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome

PZM (microphone) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fairly sure I read that article yet missed that bit, weird. Thanks!

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Jazz Noise

Has anyone any experience with them? I certainly see people talk of them but I can't find any shootouts. Any experience with different boundry mics? Any closet boundry mic fiends? What's good, what sux? Do you prefer to just lie your condensors on the ground?

Any comment is welcome!

It depends what you want them for.

I have used boundary mics several times and they are the sort of thing that should be in every mic. kit.

The best for recording are the Schoeps BLM 3 with CMC 6 or the Neumann GFM 132 (though the Neumann was recently discontinued).

The Crown boundary mics are a step down from these.

There are quite a few around designed for voice reinforcement in conference rooms or special versions for musicians on stage - particularly bass drum use.

Yes, you could just place an SDC on the floor and it would sound OK - but - it would pick up all the dirt and vibrations from the floor and would likely get walked on and would probably be unusable (though small tie mics such as the DPA 4060 stuck to the lid of a grand piano work very well).

A good modern solution is to use a "Turtle.

This is a heavy duty metal frame with patented Rycote "Lyre" anti-vibration mounts. It holds (almost) any SDC microphone just above the floor, fully shock protected and also protected from being walked over. The added advantage is that when a boundary mic. is not needed, the SDC can be removed from the Turtle and used as normal.



The Schoeps and Neumann options are not cheap - the Schoeps are about £1,450 each and the Neumann was about £1,000 more expensive.

The Turtle is a good option as they are affordable and you can use the microphones for other things when you don't need to use them as a boundary mic.

[tINY]

That Turtle looks interesting. Probably works well for relatively distant sources using directional SDCs.

I'm not sure if the inch or so between the center of the diaprhagm and the boundary would work well for close-mic'd applications. The units designed as boundary mics have smaller gaps, pushing the comb filtering up out of the audible range.



-tINY

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by tINY

That Turtle looks interesting. Probably works well for relatively distant sources using directional SDCs.

I'm not sure if the inch or so between the center of the diaprhagm and the boundary would work well for close-mic'd applications. The units designed as boundary mics have smaller gaps, pushing the comb filtering up out of the audible range.



-tINY

It actually works pretty well.

It was designed with help from Schoeps and when it was tested at Gefell on a drum kit they were very impressed.

[legato]

Looks good, John.

A nice (stereo) boundary twist is this:
SASS-P MK II




Henk

[Howie J]

I've used the Crown PCC's in various situations...Micing a table where 4 people were speaking to an audience, front of stage for tap dance numbers, theater area mics, etc.

Tomorrow I'm taking delivery of a pair of DPA 4061's and the SMK kit. Part of the kit includes two shallow cone type mounts that let you use the 4061's as a type of boundary mic. I'm curious how it will work in that situation.

DPA SMK4061 | Sweetwater.com

[tINY]

Originally Posted by legato

Looks good, John.

A nice (stereo) boundary twist is this:
SASS-P MK II

How well did those things actually work? I always thought of them as the poor man's Fritz...



-tINY

[daivadisc]

[daivadisc]

First, a few clarifications. There are boundary mic techniques using most if not all sensitivity patterns -- is the poster looking for omnis or directional ones (sub- cardioids, cardioids, or hypercardioids)?

Second, some manufacturers -- notably Schoeps -- provide mounts to use most of their capsules as boundary layer mics. There's no reason why the topic of BL mics should be considered "low end"! The cost of some BL mics and their vulverability in some typical applications, however, may make the risk of damage unacceptable to many users.

Third, while a number of manufacturers make BL mics for non-critical applications, their self-noise usually rules them out for critical applications.

I use, or have used, the Schoeps BLM 3 and Schoeps capsules in Schoeps BL adapters, Crown PCC 160, Sanken CUB-01, and, most recently, Bartlett Recording Microphones. Check the Bartlett website for examples of boundary layer mic recordings -- I've praised the Bartletts many times now, and I continue to like their sound quality and superb ruggedness.

daivadisc

[kpbenoit]

For some big band recordings (especially where the drums are uncontrollably loud in on the stage, I'll gaff tape some PZMs to the lid of the piano and shut it completely. Best isolation I can get. Makes for a pretty bright in-you-face kinda sound, but the FOH guys love it b/c they can actually get some piano in the room without pushing a bunch of other weird stuff up with it, and it really helps define the piano in the mix on the recording side.

[Jazz Noise]

Originally Posted by daivadisc

First, a few clarifications. There are boundary mic techniques using most if not all sensitivity patterns -- is the poster looking for omnis or directional ones (sub- cardioids, cardioids, or hypercardioids)?

Probably Omni or Sub Cardiods. I mostly want these for drum ambience so the need for directionality you might have with audience noise during a drama would not be a factor for me. Asides from intent to buy I see very little written about them, so I was generaly curious as to what GS take on them is.

I've found what I've read so far very interesting. I'm aware many boundry mics are far from "Low Budget" but I was curious to see what people had had good experience with. The recordings I've heard using Schoeeps and DPA mics have been of a very high quality and they're always high up in any of the blind tests I do, but until my money tree starts taking root I may have to opt for something cheaper!

[tINY]

Originally Posted by Jazz Noise

The recordings I've heard using Schoeeps and DPA mics have been of a very high quality and they're always high up in any of the blind tests I do, but until my money tree starts taking root I may have to opt for something cheaper!

Again, the Audio Technica boundary mics are good and far less expensive. The U8xx series is more than adequate for your needs.

...if you can get them on the Emerald Isle.




-tINY

[John T]

I've used the Crown PZM's and Sure PZM's in live applications and they really work well for picking up stage stuff (tap, theater stage noise, etc.). I get great results from the Sure SM 91 inside the kick.

[Scott003]

Great thread . +1 The piano lid trick is awesome. Not bad under mallet keyboards either, at least live. Used crowns as discreet ambience mics, sounded good enough, didn't know they were of that lower/ utilitarian quality. Did record a percussion cluster with lika low tom snare and other stuff with a pzm and a room mic and it turned out pretty nice

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Jazz Noise

The recordings I've heard using Schoeeps and DPA mics have been of a very high quality and they're always high up in any of the blind tests I do, but until my money tree starts taking root I may have to opt for something cheaper!

Both very good.

My own boundaries are the, now discontinued, Neumann GFM132 which I have had for many years.

I don't actually use them that much - nowadays I would put my normal SDCs into a Turtle.