Login / Register
 
Is firewire a dying breed?
New Reply
Subscribe
Trainwreckmusic
Thread Starter
#1
24th October 2012
Old 24th October 2012
  #1
Gear Head
 
Trainwreckmusic's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 33

Thread Starter
Trainwreckmusic is offline
Is firewire a dying breed?

Went out shopping for a laptop today something I can run my old 002 rack & Digimax LT adat mic pres into so I can do live off the board recordings in PT 8 from my mixers aux sends. Seems Apple is going to thunderbolt loosing FW even doing away with optical drives. I could not find one new windows lap top with a FW input....Are FW interfaces going the way of tape adat machines?
__________________
If it doesn't have have tubes... I'm not plugging my Gtr or singing into it!

Mac mini 2.53 Ghz 4Gb ram
ProTools Le 8.0.5, Digi 002, Presonus Digimax LT & Central station, KRK Rockit 8v2, KRK Rockit 10s, Chameleon Labs TS2, Rode Nt-5s
Too many vintage guitars & amps to list!
#2
24th October 2012
Old 24th October 2012
  #2
Lives for gear
 
heyman's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2005
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 3,281

heyman is offline
__________________
Best quote ever....!
Posted by Infernal Device..

"Guitar Center....
Even the good news is in the moan zone."
#3
24th October 2012
Old 24th October 2012
  #3
Gear nut
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Germany - Bavaria
Posts: 94

Kultjoe is offline
It seems so, and with faster USB 3.0 connections it is very likely that there will be a increasing number of multichannel USB Interfaces on the market.
USB is just more common, stable and faster by now.
#4
25th October 2012
Old 25th October 2012
  #4
Gear Guru
 
tINY's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Orygun
Posts: 12,089

tINY is offline

FW is a great interface for recording or HD video steaming. But, the promise of "fast enough" interrupt driven interfaces like USB3 seems to be making this irrelevant.

If it initalizes correctly, FW is more stable than USB because it has gauranteed bandwidth, so latency can be set lower.

It looks to be dying except for Apple - and who knows how long they will support it?



-tINY

#5
25th October 2012
Old 25th October 2012
  #5
Lives for gear
 
guitarmax_99's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: Cape Cod
Posts: 741

Send a message via Yahoo to guitarmax_99
guitarmax_99 is offline
I'm curious about what direction the companies that make audio interfaces go. What format will they embrace as FW loses support? Even though FW400 is somewhat out of date, many interfaces are still using it (why didn't they go with FW800?). Finding hard drives that support FW400 is a pain. I guess I'm standing pat with my interface for the moment, but there will come a point when I need to upgrade (or even just replace what I've got). What's it gonna be? USB3?
#6
25th October 2012
Old 25th October 2012
  #6
Lives for gear
 
FilmNMusicman's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: Marz
Posts: 941

FilmNMusicman is offline
APPLE basically does whatever it wants, some companies like Lacie do bend more to APPLE's way and release products that are more "Mac Friendly". Realistically I like to think that AUDIO really doesn't need much more bandwith that a FW400 or a USB 2.0 connection when we're talking in a MASS MARKET sense.

The size of audio is PUNY compared to say video. I work at a mostly video post facility and well audio is 5 Gigs for an 6+2 HD movie and a ProRes HQ movie is about 150GB for 90 minutes. Streaming out those 5 gigs is small so the pipeline doesn't need to be Thunderbolt fast for that and especially for those of us recording 1 or 2 tracks simultaneously at home, I mean, there isn't a real need when we're talking for the masses.

I prefer Firewire personally, especially 800 and I wish it has been adopted as a more universal standard. Seems like people just like USB, OLD PEOPLE even get it.
__________________
SYNTH: Moog Little Phatty/DSI Tetra/DSI Evolver/Sequential Circuits MultiTrak/Korg MS2000B
RACK: MR816CSX/Presonus Eureka/PRE73+EQ73/Valley People Dynamite/Ashly CL52E & PQX571/DBX 166A/VLA PRO
PEDALS: Moogerfooger MF102 RingModulator, Way Huge Aqua Puss MKII, Way Huge Green Rhino MKII, EHX Big Muff

http://soundcloud.com/godsons
#7
25th October 2012
Old 25th October 2012
  #7
Gear addict
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 379

zzzxtreme is offline
$29 for thunderbolt-firewire adapter is el-cheapo. thumbs up for apple
#8
25th October 2012
Old 25th October 2012
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Jul 2011
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 576

Send a message via Skype™ to Ezionjd
Ezionjd is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmNMusicman View Post
The size of audio is PUNY compared to say video.
Love that word. Puny.
It just rolls off the tongue, gotta put it in a song someday, lol.
__________________
"I`m Ron Burgundy?"
#9
25th October 2012
Old 25th October 2012
  #9
Gear maniac
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 291

lostintime is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by tINY View Post
FW is a great interface for recording or HD video steaming. But, the promise of "fast enough" interrupt driven interfaces like USB3 seems to be making this irrelevant.
Huh? USB 3.0 has a bitrate of 5 Gbps, over six times that of Firewire 800.

Quote:
If it initalizes correctly, FW is more stable than USB because it has gauranteed bandwidth, so latency can be set lower.
USB has always had guaranteed bandwidth. Also, guaranteed bandwidth doesn't necessarily mean lower latency. The RME Fireface UFX and UCX, both of which have both a USB and a Firewire interface, give superior latency performance when used via their USB interface.

Quote:
It looks to be dying except for Apple - and who knows how long they will support it?
Firewire has been dying for a long time now. Now that we have USB 3.0 when Firewire finally does disappear completely it won't be missed.
#10
25th October 2012
Old 25th October 2012
  #10
Gear Guru
 
tINY's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Orygun
Posts: 12,089

tINY is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostintime View Post
Huh? USB 3.0 has a bitrate of 5 Gbps, over six times that of Firewire 800.

Yup, so it's "fast enough". But try daisy chaining 3 devices with 50 feet of cable....

Quote:
USB has always had guaranteed bandwidth. Also, guaranteed bandwidth doesn't necessarily mean lower latency. The RME Fireface UFX and UCX, both of which have both a USB and a Firewire interface, give superior latency performance when used via their USB interface.

No, it's an interrupt-driven protocol. That means that the host responds to requests from each device.

Firewire has allocated data blocks where each client gets an allocation of the bandwidth once the handshaking is done. There is no danger that a converter will have to wait longer to transmit data because of hiccups with the request state machine or other devices using the link asynchonously.

Quote:
Firewire has been dying for a long time now. Now that we have USB 3.0 when Firewire finally does disappear completely it won't be missed.


...unles you like a robust, efficient way of connecting 16+ channels of 24/96 audio. In reality, all but the big studios can probably live fine with simple USB3.0 connections. Some of us may have to re-buy converters, interfaces, control surfaces and data storage, which is disappointing.



-tINY

Trainwreckmusic
Thread Starter
#11
25th October 2012
Old 25th October 2012
  #11
Gear Head
 
Trainwreckmusic's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 33

Thread Starter
Trainwreckmusic is offline
Thanks for the FW to TB adaptor tip is there a FW to USB 3 adaptor?
I am really leaning to getting rid of my 002 while it is still worth something though not much......Technology & planed obsolesce marches on!
#12
25th October 2012
Old 25th October 2012
  #12
serious amateur
 
omtayslick's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Indiana
Posts: 586

omtayslick is offline
Hurray for PCI cards!!!!
Quote
1
#13
25th October 2012
Old 25th October 2012
  #13
Gear maniac
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 291

lostintime is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by tINY View Post
Yup, so it's "fast enough". But try daisy chaining 3 devices with 50 feet of cable....
USB supports this just as well as Firewire.

Quote:
Firewire has allocated data blocks where each client gets an allocation of the bandwidth once the handshaking is done. There is no danger that a converter will have to wait longer to transmit data because of hiccups with the request state machine or other devices using the link asynchonously.
How is this different from USB? They both support isochronous transfers.
#14
26th October 2012
Old 26th October 2012
  #14
Gear Guru
 
tINY's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Orygun
Posts: 12,089

tINY is offline

From Wikipedia:
Quote:
FireWire is capable of safely operating critical systems due to the way multiple devices interact with the bus and how the bus allocates bandwidth to the devices. FireWire is capable of both asynchronous and isochronous transfer methods at once. Isochronous data transfers are transfers for devices that require continuous, guaranteed bandwidth.[5] In an aircraft, for instance, Isochronous devices include control of the rudder, mouse operations and data from pressure sensors outside the aircraft. All these elements require constant, uninterrupted bandwidth. To support both elements, FireWire dedicates a certain percentage to isochronous data and the rest to asynchronous data. In IEEE 1394 80% of the bus is reserved for isochronous cycles, leaving asynchronous data with a minimum of 20% of the bus.[22]



Also from Wiki on the USB page:
Quote:
USB device communication is based on pipes (logical channels). A pipe is a connection from the host controller to a logical entity, found on a device, and named an endpoint. Because pipes correspond 1-to-1 to endpoints, the terms are sometimes used interchangeably. A USB device can have up to 32 endpoints, though USB devices seldom have this many endpoints. An endpoint is built into the USB device by the manufacturer and therefore exists permanently, while a pipe may be opened and closed.

There are two types of pipes: stream and message pipes. A message pipe is bi-directional and is used for control transfers. Message pipes are typically used for short, simple commands to the device, and a status response, used, for example, by the bus control pipe number 0. A stream pipe is a uni-directional pipe connected to a uni-directional endpoint that transfers data using an isochronous, interrupt, or bulk transfer:

isochronous transfers: at some guaranteed data rate (often, but not necessarily, as fast as possible) but with possible data loss (e.g., realtime audio or video).

interrupt transfers: devices that need guaranteed quick responses (bounded latency) (e.g., pointing devices and keyboards).

bulk transfers: large sporadic transfers using all remaining available bandwidth, but with no guarantees on bandwidth or latency (e.g., file transfers).


To me, it seems a shame that so many IP lawyers got involved. I think that is the biggest issue that's killing off Firewire.


-tINY

#15
26th October 2012
Old 26th October 2012
  #15
Lives for gear
 
enossified's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,282

enossified is offline
What killed FW is that USB 2.0 was fast enough for the masses of users, is a bit cheaper to implement and was backwards compatible with USB1.1. To mfrs of peripherals it's a no brainer, devices with only one protocol to deal with are cheaper to make. Cameras (esp. video cameras) adopting USB 2.0 probably drove the switch more than anything else.

So far I haven't seen much in the way of USB 3.0 peripherals outside of hard drives.

There might be some USB 3.0 speed bumps, too...check out this from the folks at M-Audio
#16
26th October 2012
Old 26th October 2012
  #16
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,264

Manfrensengensen is offline
FW can support daisy chaining up to 63 devices on one port. I'll stick with it until I need a new computer or I'll just add a Mac Mini server and network it to my IMac and use Logic Node to share the load.
__________________
27" Imac 2.93 ghz I7 12GB ram OSX 10.6.5,
MacBookPro 2.4 ghz duo 4GB ram,
Mackie Onyx 1640I, Motu Ultralite Mk3,
LA610 Solo, Logic Pro 9.1.6 DAW
Quote
1
#17
26th October 2012
Old 26th October 2012
  #17
Gear maniac
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 193

RonaldDumsfeld is offline
Quote:
The reason is that some USB 3 controllers that claim to be fully compatible to USB 2 devices actually have problems when you try to connect certain USB 2 high-speed audio interface.

The problem is that our drivers use a technology called 'isochronous streaming'.

The standard USB specifications cover this feature, and every USB2 controller
supports it.
But all USB3 controllers we tested do have problems with 'isochronous streaming'
with high speed audio interfaces.
The above is a quote from NI tech support but it appears that all USB 2.0 interface manufacturers except RME have the same problem.
#18
26th October 2012
Old 26th October 2012
  #18
Gear interested
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 9

Uncle Dennis is offline
Regarding these Thunderbolt firewire adaptors, i have a question regarding extending firewire cable runs. I've still got a firewire interface (yamaha n12) and have a need to extend the cable beyond the 10ft (approx) maximum recommended length. I've heard that firewire extenders can mess with the drivers +/ timings or whatever the computer side needs to keep it stable. Can we expect to extend the cable runs (and lifespan!) of firewire devices by plugging into thunderbolt slots with appropriate adaptors?. And what is the current state of the art regarding thunderbolt cable length with existing tech?
Thanks
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+ 
 
Topic:
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
nomraun / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording
54
verb / So much gear, so little time!
21
cleantone / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording
14

Forum Jump

SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.