Hoping for a microphone suggestion

[prizebeatz1]

In my opinion, you'd better off using the money for a killer preamp instead. That will make all of your mics much more useable. I have a Dav BG1 and it has solved all of my sibilance issues. You will like the KSM 32 a lot better and you will be surprised at the sound you can get even from a lowly SM57 or SM58. My 2 cents.

[brianvaughn]

Hey thanks for the advice jdomini. Any particular preamp suggestions?

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

You might try approaching the mic differently, using a pop filter, taping a pencil in front of the capsule, or any number of other solutions. That was never my favorite microphone but enough people swear by them to make my personal opinion sorta meaningless. I own a pair of Korbys, one with the four heads and one custom built as a U47, so I appreciate what you are saying, but what you describe is a function of how the Shure is being used, not a flaw in the Shure itself.

[kslight]

I'll be honest, thinking the mic probably isn't your weakest link. I use a Shure KSM44 for my vocals usually, which is not a drastically different mic from the KSM32 I believe...and I don't find it particularly sibilant at all. I don't use a pop filter normally, but that might help you to establish some distance from the mic. Lately I've been using a JBL/UREI 7510b as my preamp, which is a pretty dark sounding pre...but even when I've used it in neutral pres it does not approach sibilant to me, especially compared something like a Rode.

[brianvaughn]

Agh. I can't believe I left that detail out!

I have been using a pop-filter. I'm not sure how much pop-filters vary (ie whether the one I have is a bad one or whether they're practically all the same).

[ROBOCOPROBOT]

As far as pop filters go, the metal ones are better than the fabric ones. Fabric muffles the sound, where as metal deflects large blasts of air while preserving the waveform coming from your mouth.

I'd say go for a nice mic pre. I like tube preamps, but a solid state one may also suit your purposes. While I've never used them, I've heard the tube/solid state combo mic pres are kinda crummy. They have both options, but aren't good at either.

As far as the mic goes, I'm saving up for a Neumann TLM 102 right now. It's not like a u47 or anything, but it sounds better than most mics in the same price range and is a great improvement over the CAD I'm using now. Plus the sound of it is neutral enough that you can shape it to be whatever you want given the right preamp, room and use of eq. They cost about $700, but it's well worth it.

[brianvaughn]

Thanks ROBOCOPROBOT! I'll give a nicer pop filter a go first.

Hope the 102 works out well for you!

[ROBOCOPROBOT]

Originally Posted by brianvaughn

Thanks ROBOCOPROBOT! I'll give a nicer pop filter a go first.

Hope the 102 works out well for you!

Thanks! I'm hoping it works well for me too!

A better pop filter is a good start! You'll notice a slight difference in tone.

Metal ones can go for up to $60, which seems to pricey for me. I think you can get ones that do just as fine for around $20-25.

[mattjew24]

I'm sure it's not the pop filter... Most studios I've been in use standard fabric ones. Try a different preamp. Or singing from an angle. Move the mic, play with it

[ROBOCOPROBOT]

Originally Posted by mattjew24

I'm sure it's not the pop filter... Most studios I've been in use standard fabric ones. Try a different preamp. Or singing from an angle. Move the mic, play with it

I do agree with this. A better pop filter helps, but maybe try prioritizing this way.

1) Try new mic techniques.
2) Get a new/better mic pre.
3) Buy a better mic.
4) Get better cables. (Mogami and Gotham make good ones)
5) Get a new pop filter.

[John T]

The mic choice for your voice is the beginning of capturing "your" sound. If possible, audition some mics before you plop the money down. If you can afford the Korby Audio Convertible then you can certainly find a quality mic for your voice without quite that much expense. Find a suitable mic and a good preamp. The AT 4047 works really well on vocals for a very reasonable price. A UA 610 is really inexpensive for the sound you get from it. I'm not sure the combo is right for you, but it's a thought. Good luck.

[quagga]

The FF400 has excellent preamps, they are the same digital pres as the high end RME pres. Pick up a nice ribbon mic for it.

[Gizzmo0815]

Originally Posted by ROBOCOPROBOT

As far as pop filters go, the metal ones are better than the fabric ones. Fabric muffles the sound, where as metal deflects large blasts of air while preserving the waveform coming from your mouth.

What?? Where's the evidence for that claim? Metal pop filters might be less breakable, but they're hardly "better" than a fabric one. They might sound different in some way, but that doesn't mean anything really. Your explanation simply doesn't hold water. Anything that's placed in front of your mouth will affect the sound coming out of it, fabric, metal, plastic...pizza...whatever. Putting a metal "something" in front of your mouth will affect the output just as much as a fabric "something".

The preamps on the RME are just fine for what you're seeking to accomplish. Realistically you would need a combination of an excellent preamp, excellent room (meaning treated by someone that knows how) and excellent microphone to get the best possible sound. However, for a home studio the RME preamps are more than adequate, and you've already got a great microphone. Sibilance is most easily thwarted by mic technique. Don't sing too close (3 feet from the capsule at least), use a pop filter (it doesn't really matter what kind) and try raising or lowering the mic above or below your mouth so that the air pressure isn't focused directly at the capsule.

If you want to get a new microphone then the only good answer is to try one out. YOUR voice is unique, so none of us can determine what mic you should use based on a forum description. Take a friend who knows what to listen for and find a place that will allow you to try out a bunch of mics. THEN choose which one you like most.

[ROBOCOPROBOT]

[QUOTE=Gizzmo0815;8337197]What?? Where's the evidence for that claim? Metal pop filters might be less breakable, but they're hardly "better" than a fabric one. They might sound different in some way, but that doesn't mean anything really. Your explanation simply doesn't hold water. Anything that's placed in front of your mouth will affect the sound coming out of it, fabric, metal, plastic...pizza...whatever. Putting a metal "something" in front of your mouth will affect the output just as much as a fabric "something".

Just something I've picked up from assisting in studios and going to school for audio.

It has to do with the way the blasts of air from plosives are diverted. A metal one acts more like the vents on the dashboard of your car, it diverts the air around. Fabric ones tend to disperse or block it. They both a different sounds, it's not a major concern in one's vocal chain, but it is something to consider.

Nothing to get too fired up about, just pop filters dude.

[donsolo]

Originally Posted by ROBOCOPROBOT

Just something I've picked up from assisting in studios and going to school for audio.

It has to do with the way the blasts of air from plosives are diverted. A metal one acts more like the vents on the dashboard of your car, it diverts the air around. Fabric ones tend to disperse or block it. They both a different sounds, it's not a major concern in one's vocal chain, but it is something to consider.

I too have an education in this and a background making many records and working records from both major and indie labels.

Here's the reality:
The pop filter is probably not the problem. The difference tonally between the two are minimal. Sibilance is an issue with humidity. Just use a De-esser. Try a different mic placement, try a different part of the room, but don't start buying new stuff to solve this problem.

That being said, the KSM32 is a pretty bright microphone so something like an AT4047 which is a far warmer mic might fit the vocals better.

The ribbon idea is also a good one but ime, the pres off a FF aren't strong enough to amplify a ribbon to the levels that you really need without introducing some noise.

I'm all for buying a very good preamp for things like this, it helps a lot but also, pairing the mic with the source is super-important too.

Audition a bunch of mics and find one that sounds the best to your ears with the source you're working with. That's the only real advise I can give. The FF pres are fine for Condensors but once you get into the realm of dynamics and ribbons, you'll need something with a bit more clean output to make the mic work for you.

the KSM series is like the R0DE NT series, they're bright. De-essing is where I'd start if you're happy with the tone otherwise.

[ROBOCOPROBOT]

Originally Posted by donsolo

I too have an education in this and a background making many records and working records from both major and indie labels.

Here's the reality:
The pop filter is probably not the problem. The difference tonally between the two are minimal. Sibilance is an issue with humidity. Just use a De-esser. Try a different mic placement, try a different part of the room, but don't start buying new stuff to solve this problem.

.

I don't know where humidity fits into sibilance, if it does at all. A sibilance is caused by the way one's tongue is shaped and where it's contacting their mouth when they make certain consonant sounds.

Either way, a pop filter only blocks air blasts from plosives, not sibilance, so I'm not sure why sibilance has been brought up.

I'm not arguing with you about whether or not buying a new pop screen will help. I agree, it's not to much of a concern and more attention should be paid to good mic technique and more important pieces of gear.

[Gizzmo0815]

Originally Posted by ROBOCOPROBOT

I agree, it's not to much of a concern and more attention should be paid to good mic technique and more important pieces of gear.

So you agree then...the pop filter has little to do with it. But you brought it up

At lest we agree that the pop filter won't really do much to prevent sibilance. Which is the main problem the original poster was asking about. A preamp won't likely fix a sibilance problem, but a different mic could reduce the effect. More likely it's simpler than that though.

Sibilance is a multifaceted issue...there are many things that can be altered to reduce sibilance. De-essing is one way but it's more of a band-aid fix than a true solution to the problem. The real problem is at the source. Either change the way you're singing so as to emphasize 's' sounds less or do other things like sing further from the mic, or place the mic off axis from your mouth.

[Big Zimm]

I would first try backing the singer away from the mic and see if that helps. It might just be a matter of mic placement. If you are still having issues I would try throwing a DeEsser on the track and see if that cleans things up enough. If both of those fail I would recommend purchasing an SM58 while you save up to purchase a new mic, or preamp. They are incredibly underrated for recording, and they're inexpensive. It would at least get you another option for the bands you have coming in until you can purchase a new mic or preamp.

While I think a new mic preamp is always a more useful purchase than a new mic, I have found that if I don't like a microphone changing out the preamp won't help. You might want to look into getting a new mic if mic placement and a DeEsser don't solve your problems.

[halcyo]

Only on gearslutz does everyone recommend a new mic preamp for a guy who's using a KSM32. Obviously dude is not able to spend a bunch of money, so really- how much pre is he really gonna be able to purchase that will change his outcome THAT much.

If you don't like the sound of the mic, try other mics. The KSM32 is famous for being an all-around good sounding mic, especially on instruments, but it's not exactly famous for being a vocal mic by any stretch of the imagination. Very plain and sm7bish...

The top end (high frequency content, where the 'esses' are) is a facet of a microphone that tends to separate the big boy mics from the rest. You'll spend some money and start to realize that the breathy, airy, essy, portion of the sound sounds way more musical on a better built microphone. For example, I extensively used a Telefunken AR-51 for some time on a lot of vocalists. It is 'aiming' for that 251/C12 kinda sound. It is even BRIGHTER than the KSM32. However, it has such a beautiful, smooth high end that it sounds incredible up there in the bright stuff vs. the KSM32 which is showing it's limitations there.

It's a bold statement, as there are certainly exceptions, but it sounds like you are getting to the point where you probably will be considering spending over $1000 on your next mic. Get into the 'big leagues', so to speak.

[donsolo]

Originally Posted by ROBOCOPROBOT

I don't know where humidity fits into sibilance, if it does at all. A sibilance is caused by the way one's tongue is shaped and where it's contacting their mouth when they make certain consonant sounds.

This is what I was always told. That being said, there's tons of bad information in regards to audio that floats around so I very well may be wrong.

The way it was explained to me is that air with a higher water content is more efficient at moving high frequencies which is why humid rooms cause more sibilance in the microphone. That very well may be incorrect information.

But, in my experience in recording in varying rooms in different parts of the country, I have found this theory to hold some truth. The gear was always different in each room but the humid ones, for whatever reason, had sibilance issues.

The only time the gear has been constant is the recordings I did in my humid Boston college dorm room vs my heavily-air conditioned Texas studio.

Those tests also though, are not completely valid as I tend to not use the same mics on vocals anymore (R0DE NT1-A for example was a very sibilant mic but since moving, I haven't used it on vocals)

So, that's my anecdotal experience of my claim and the reasons that were explained to me.

A quick google search didn't turn up any corroborating evidence so truthfully, it may be a debunked audio myth, but one I stick to based on my experience. I am human and we are all flawed one way or the other.

[Silent Sound]

Originally Posted by donsolo

This is what I was always told. That being said, there's tons of bad information in regards to audio that floats around so I very well may be wrong.

The way it was explained to me is that air with a higher water content is more efficient at moving high frequencies which is why humid rooms cause more sibilance in the microphone. That very well may be incorrect information.

But, in my experience in recording in varying rooms in different parts of the country, I have found this theory to hold some truth. The gear was always different in each room but the humid ones, for whatever reason, had sibilance issues.

The only time the gear has been constant is the recordings I did in my humid Boston college dorm room vs my heavily-air conditioned Texas studio.

Those tests also though, are not completely valid as I tend to not use the same mics on vocals anymore (R0DE NT1-A for example was a very sibilant mic but since moving, I haven't used it on vocals)

So, that's my anecdotal experience of my claim and the reasons that were explained to me.

A quick google search didn't turn up any corroborating evidence so truthfully, it may be a debunked audio myth, but one I stick to based on my experience. I am human and we are all flawed one way or the other.

Yeah, I did a bunch of research on this a couple of years ago. It always seemed to me that sound travels further in the winter time. It's usually less humid in the winter, so I thought that might have something to do with it. I also looked up correlations between sound and air pressure and sound and temperature. I couldn't find anything very definitive. In the end, I just decided that sound travels further in winter because during the summer everyone has their air conditioners on and all that white noise raises the signal to noise ratio. It's still not scientific, but that's what I'm going with.

All that being said, to me the biggest advantage of a metal pop filter is washability. The fabric one's sound better in my ear. But they're close enough, that I'll use whichever one is easiest to get to.

I understand the recommendations for a better preamp. I've got a couple of preamps that can really bring out the sibilance in some mics. But an RME 400 is pretty good, and I don't think a better preamp would necessarily get rid of the sibilance. Maybe something like a FMR RNP might help. It's pretty clean, but for whatever reason, it tends to get along better with my most sibilant mics. In any case, I'd suggest some better singing technique. Though that's not always an option given time constraints. Next I'd look to different microphone placements and a de-esser. If that doesn't work, then I would look at getting a new microphone. The KSM 32 is a bit sibilant in my experience. Not as bad as many other mics, but more so than a few. However, to say which mic would go with your voice... well that's a question that we can't really answer for you. Just try a bunch out and see which works best for your situation. When you bought the KSM 32 you probably didn't know a whole lot about recording and didn't know what you wanted. Now that you've got some experience under your belt and can say more about what you want, so it'd be a good time to do some experimenting.

[brianvaughn]

First off, thank you all for your recommendations and inputs. I have a lot of things to try now. Sounds like the first and easiest one is to play with my microphone placement a little more.

Originally Posted by John T

A UA 610 is really inexpensive for the sound you get from it.

As far as preamps go, I'm really leaning towards the 610 at the moment (given the reviews and the price). Considering pairing it with something like the Lauten Atlantis. Clearly I'll want to rent/try both before making a commitment. It's a little hard for me to do since there aren't any good pro audio shops in my area, but my Sweetwater rep says that it won't be a problem for me to try mics through them so problem solved.

Originally Posted by quagga

The FF400 has excellent preamps, they are the same digital pres as the high end RME pres. Pick up a nice ribbon mic for it.

I have very little experience with ribbon mics, but you're not the first person to suggest this! Would you recommend any specific ones to look at? (If not I'm sure I can check into it myself, no problem.)

Originally Posted by Big Zimm

I would first try backing the singer away from the mic and see if that helps.

This seems to be a reoccurring suggestion. I'm going to have to revisit my mic placement.