Gotta be trolls. That's the only thing that makes sense to me, especially when I hear "pros" saying they can't mix with this mic. Mixing vocals with this mic doesn't get much easier.
For real. I've only been doing this recording thing for 3 years now.
I was doing this for 10 years before I realized that the AKG 414 wasn't the greatest mic in the world. Always learning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarboy94
I'm far from being a pro, but jeez, I can easily cut very nice vocals with an SM7b. Do folks not know how to cut some mids to remove the supposed mud and EQ in a little air?
Firstly, that mic needs a "ton" of top end to match my aesthetic and secondly, yeah. I don't "know how to cut some mids to remove the supposed mud".
Here's the thing. In case I haven't already typed this out.
When I use this mic, I have two main problems. Both of which pains me to no end.
1. The mic is dark. But when you make it bright enough, it starts to sound abrasive. And if you back off one damn inch so it doesn't spew blood from your ears, it sounds too muffled again. It has no sweet spot. So you just have to find a compromise. But it's never perfect.
2. The mic builds up too much lo mid mud. But when you roll all that gunk out of the vocal, it sounds thin. Bring it back up, and boom. There's that mud again. It has no sweet spot. So you just have to find a compromise. But it's never perfect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarboy94
Again, I'm not an expert, but
But you think you know better than one. That's OK. You've got it figured out and after almost 30 years, I'm still learning. Oh well.
Gotta be trolls. That's the only thing that makes sense to me, especially when I hear "pros" saying they can't mix with this mic. Mixing vocals with this mic doesn't get much easier.
Yeah. Because we're all searching for the same thing. Care to share some of your mixes?
Don't worry. I won't rip you a new one. I'm just curious what you consider a perfect vocal sound.
definitely a great mic!! we have mostly high end stuff at our studio. i've been using this mic on a lot of different type of singers. doesn't matter if they sound like a suffering dog or an angel sent from heaven!! i can ALWAYS get at least a very workable sound from this mic. our selection of pre's help quite a bit also. but we also bought a few gap pre73's and it sounds killer through it!! i just don't understand how someone CAN'T get a usable sound from this mic!
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Yeah I'd be recording hip hop vocals. Are their any $100-$200 preamps that get the job done? Right now I'm also considering just making the jump and getting a gap pre73 but I'd like to get input on other decent set-ups as well.
FYI I live over an hour away from a store that sells preamps so testing them out myself is out of question.
yeah go for the GAP73, you'll be much better off with that than anything in the 100 - 200 dollar range. Either that or the B12a API Clone that Black Lion Audio makes will do the job really well, i personally stand by the B12a/SM7 combination its all i've been using all year and have gotten really great results from it
I would agree that a SM57/58 would be just as good. Honestly people should take out their 57/58 and record a vocal...they would save some dough.
OP should buy a 57 and a duet and call it a day!
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I think the 57 and SM7b sound drastically, I mean DRASTICALLY different. The only thing they share in common are a similar tonality, but man, the SM7b is smooth as butter and thick sounding...two things the 57 aren't.
I know you've got your opinions, and that's fine. To each his own. But I'm guessing the majority of pros out there using the AKG 414 and the SM7b can cut some killer vocals with thes mics. In fact, thousands upon thousands of vocals HAVE been cut with these mics. That's why I find it a bit suspect when a person comes in here and starts going on about how the AKG 414 sucks and how the SM7b sucks on vocals. Thousands of major studio recordings using these mics appear to prove otherwise. I'm not making this up. I'm going off of records I own that are produced by professionals, not hacks like myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia
I was doing this for 10 years before I realized that the AKG 414 wasn't the greatest mic in the world. Always learning.
Firstly, that mic needs a "ton" of top end to match my aesthetic and secondly, yeah. I don't "know how to cut some mids to remove the supposed mud".
Here's the thing. In case I haven't already typed this out.
When I use this mic, I have two main problems. Both of which pains me to no end.
1. The mic is dark. But when you make it bright enough, it starts to sound abrasive. And if you back off one damn inch so it doesn't spew blood from your ears, it sounds too muffled again. It has no sweet spot. So you just have to find a compromise. But it's never perfect.
2. The mic builds up too much lo mid mud. But when you roll all that gunk out of the vocal, it sounds thin. Bring it back up, and boom. There's that mud again. It has no sweet spot. So you just have to find a compromise. But it's never perfect.
But you think you know better than one. That's OK. You've got it figured out and after almost 30 years, I'm still learning. Oh well.
Have you ever tried running your sm7b through a Neve style preamp? I've noticed that my fully modded Gap Pre73 with Carhnills opens up the mic more and removes some of that dynamic mic "boxiness" you get with the SM7b. When I run it through a really clean preamp, oddly, it tends to sound less open and more dull. This mic definitely benefits from the help of a character preamp to help get rid of the "Midnight DJ" sound that this mic is known and designed for. If anything, it can be too smooth and dull, and benefits from the transformer grit you get with a Neve style preamp.
Have you ever tried running your sm7b through a Neve style preamp? I've noticed that my fully modded Gap Pre73 with Carhnills opens up the mic more and removes some of that dynamic mic "boxiness" you get with the SM7b. When I run it through a really clean preamp, oddly, it tends to sound less open and more dull. This mic definitely benefits from the help of a character preamp to help get rid of the "Midnight DJ" sound that this mic is known and designed for. If anything, it can be too smooth and dull, and benefits from the transformer grit you get with a Neve style preamp.
Same here with my character preamps. But what's the need of desperately trying to convince kenny of the pros of an sm7b? You can't talk somebody into loving something and the world would be a very boring place if we were loving all the same things...
I know you've got your opinions, and that's fine. To each his own. But I'm guessing the majority of pros out there using the AKG 414 and the SM7b can cut some killer vocals with thes mics.
"Can" being the key word here. I've gotten great results in a bad situation many times, that doesn't mean I endorse that bad situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarboy94
In fact, thousands upon thousands of vocals HAVE been cut with these mics. That's why I find it a bit suspect when a person comes in here and starts going on about how the AKG 414 sucks and how the SM7b sucks on vocals. Thousands of major studio recordings using these mics appear to prove otherwise. I'm not making this up. I'm going off of records I own that are produced by professionals, not hacks like myself.
And even more records were mixed on NS10s yet people claim they suck too. Just because I think something sucks (I didn't say the 414 does BTW) does not mean everyone will agree. But it does mean that this person thinks so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarboy94
Kenny,
Have you ever tried running your sm7b through a Neve style preamp?
It was running thru a real Neve preamp. I don't own anything clean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarboy94
I've noticed that my fully modded Gap Pre73 with Carhnills opens up the mic more and removes some of that dynamic mic "boxiness" you get with the SM7b.
And that's the thing. Why not choose a mic without it?
What's the need of desperately trying to convince kenny of the pros of an sm7b? You can't talk somebody into loving something and the world would be a very boring place if we were loving all the same things...
Exactly. I wouldn't even bother with this thread if I wasn't a mixer.
I'd let you use what you like and I'd use what I like. Done.
But as someone who mixes a dozen records a year, I have to "deal" with this mic thanks to all the hype it gets on this forum. So it makes my job harder than it needs to be. So I speak up.
Could it be that I just have different sensibilities? Sure. That's possible but I can't remember the last time I had a mix comment that involved the lead vocal sound. Other than more or less effects (reverb, delay etc). So I'm doing something right in making their microphone choice sound like I recorded it myself. Which is the goal.
The only difference is that when I track vocals (without the SM7b) I don't have to work hard to mix them. A little compression, some top end EQ and it's good. So while I can get there with that mic, it's a struggle. And why would you want to struggle?
Well, the same struggle you feel about trying to mix the Sm7b might be similar to the struggle-wuggle I feel when trying to mix vocals tracked with a condenser in a big mix. The vocal track just seems to either get lost because of lack of meaty mids, or else it just floats about on the top of the mix like cake icing with no real meat to it. What kind of stuff do you mix anyway? If you're doing bright stuff like pop and rap, I could see why you'd be going for a brighter sounding vocal.
But go figure, to each his own. I'm sure you know what you're talking about Kenny, but you just make me scratch my head.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia
Exactly. I wouldn't even bother with this thread if I wasn't a mixer.
I'd let you use what you like and I'd use what I like. Done.
But as someone who mixes a dozen records a year, I have to "deal" with this mic thanks to all the hype it gets on this forum. So it makes my job harder than it needs to be. So I speak up.
Could it be that I just have different sensibilities? Sure. That's possible but I can't remember the last time I had a mix comment that involved the lead vocal sound. Other than more or less effects (reverb, delay etc). So I'm doing something right in making their microphone choice sound like I recorded it myself. Which is the goal.
The only difference is that when I track vocals (without the SM7b) I don't have to work hard to mix them. A little compression, some top end EQ and it's good. So while I can get there with that mic, it's a struggle. And why would you want to struggle?
Well, the same struggle you feel about trying to mix the Sm7b might be similar to the struggle-wuggle I feel when trying to mix vocals tracked with a condenser in a big mix. The vocal track just seems to either get lost because of lack of meaty mids, or else it just floats about on the top of the mix like cake icing with no real meat to it. What kind of stuff do you mix anyway? If you're doing bright stuff like pop and rap, I could see why you'd be going for a brighter sounding vocal.
But go figure, to each his own. I'm sure you know what you're talking about Kenny, but you just make me scratch my head.
I mix just about anything but it's mainly pop, pop/rock or hard rock. But I do like a nice "bright" vocal.
I did this with a TLM 103 as I didn't get my Brauner yet:
That vocal sound is my sensibility. I'd imagine that you'd hate that as it certainly shouldn't be yours. I posted it so we could see how different taste can be.
I remember years ago my partner asked me to get a vocal sound like this song:
It was difficult because it's not my thing. It sounds great but very little definition compared to the first song.
Mandy Moore tune sounds really good, man!
I do agree that vocals in the tune from Weezer sound kind of buried and small, but it works in the tune, giving it a low-fi, garage rock vibe.
I've only used 103 on vox twice. Both singers had some grit and distortion to their voices and the 103 seemed to sound harsh. For Mandy's voice it would fit great, or did fit great. Definitely adds a lot a detail and brightness.
Exactly. I wouldn't even bother with this thread if I wasn't a mixer.
But as someone who mixes a dozen records a year, I have to "deal" with this mic thanks to all the hype it gets on this forum. So it makes my job harder than it needs to be. So I speak up.
I did not know that Bruce Swedien chooses to frequent this board for mic advice.
It all depend's on which song you are working and what vocal sound you like. I like the SM7 a lot but of course you can't use it for everything. If you want a crystal clear bright sound it's the wrong choice.
Exactly. Kenny's opinions seem to make a lot of sense now in light of the genre of music he mixes. For pop music and even metal, bright, airy vocals is the norm. I love his mix on Mandy's song, but I definitely would not want vocals that bright and airy on a folk/Americana type of song, which is my genre. I'm into Tom Petty, Pete Yorn, Ryan Adams, Bob Dylan, etc. Something would not sound right if vocals from any of the above singers came out sounding like a bright, fluffy pop song. I dig lots of mids and only a little top end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stev
It all depend's on which song you are working and what vocal sound you like. I like the SM7 a lot but of course you can't use it for everything. If you want a crystal clear bright sound it's the wrong choice.
Exactly. Kenny's opinions seem to make a lot of sense now in light of the genre of music he mixes. For pop music and even metal, bright, airy vocals is the norm. I love his mix on Mandy's song, but I definitely would not want vocals that bright and airy on a folk/Americana type of song, which is my genre. I'm into Tom Petty, Pete Yorn, Ryan Adams, Bob Dylan, etc. Something would not sound right if vocals from any of the above singers came out sounding like a bright, fluffy pop song. I dig lots of mids and only a little top end.
Agreed.
Although, listen to this vocal:
Probably going to eat my hat when someone tells me that this was done with an SM7b.
I don't like bright vocals, much prefer this sound and I'm pretty sure it's SM7B , I had recorded once a singer with similar voice on SM7 and it sounded very much like it :
Love this Petty tune. I believe Rick Ruben mixed this record? I've heard that Ruben likes to compress his vocals pretty heavy, to the point where you hear every little breath. Sometimes some really nice compression can take the place of loads of brightness.
I do know that Petty is known to track vocals with an SM57 into a Neve. I'm not sure what he used on this tune. He likes the U47 as well, from an interview I once read. This is a little more stripped down song (mostly drums and bass), which makes his vocal really stand out.
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