Double-Tracking Vocals

cassius · 27th June 2006

I am trying to double-track the vocals on one of my songs, a la Elliott Smith, but running into some problems:
-Both tracks, when played together, are quieter than either track played alone.

-I can't decide if the tracks should be hard-panned left and right, or slightly blended together at, say, 10 and 2.

-at one point, a third (falsetto) vocal part comes in with the double-tracked vocals. at that point, it sounds way too busy and disjointed.. the tracks aren't "working together" as i'd like them to.

Any suggestions?

-Cassius

Reza · 27th June 2006

This is called phasing. Basically, the sound frequencies cancel each other out.

You should read up about this as it will help your mixes alot!!!

cassius · 27th June 2006

Yeah, I've read about engineers having "phasing problems," but never really understood. Now I know.

Any tips on how to avoid phasing problems when playing back double-tracked vocals at the same volume? Is it a problem with mic placement, or... ?

zenkonami · 27th June 2006

It's tough because it's kind of an effect...If the doubled vocal were exactly the same it would just be louder. I mean, you could single track and then mult out the vocal and play with it that way if you were just going for a bigger sound, but if your after like a Beach Boys thing...

If you're using a DAW, you can try nudging the waveform over a bit until the peaks line up. That might help. Also, panning them hard left and right may help, though I don't know if that'll give you what you want in your mix.

I do a lot of doubletracked vocals on my stuff, but also a lot of harmonies. If I buss them all over somewhere and compress them a bit (with a nice short verb tucked under) I get a nice tight effect, but I may be offsetting some of the phasing/volume issues due to having all those harmonies mixed in (or I'm just not noticing it as much in my mix.)

If your mic is the same distance from you every time, and your performance is tight, then maybe it's a room issue? Some reflection somewhere? That's a crazy guess, though.

There's my inexperienced (and worthless) $0.02

nathanvacha · 27th June 2006

The thing about elliott smith doing it was that he was extremely talented and very very thight. I've had singers before vary so much on the double sounds really weird. If you're just a little off, maybe try using two different signal chains on each take. If this is your own music, then you have some time to experiment. Find two different mics and pres and maybe compress one more than the other. Or if you don't have the time, compress each take separately and differently with different comps. It may not be the effect you're looking for, but try it, it may help.

There is definitely phasing issues on elliott smith's vocals, pretty much all of them. It was a part of his sound.
If I'm not mistaken, most of his songs were two tracks straight through with guitar and vocals all at once--the acoustic is doubled too... all that fingerpicking and singing is double tracked and wouldn't work if he wasn't tight.

aussie_techie · 27th June 2006

flip the phase of one track .....

davode · 27th June 2006

i wouldn't pan it, because your phase problem will still exist when you check your mix in mono.

666 · 29th June 2006

I was gonna say, mix them in mono, get them sounding good (or retrack) then worry about panning. I'm personally a fan of loose double tracked vocals when they sound right.

stegdump · 30th June 2006

Yeah,
Sounds like you need to flip the POLARITY or one of your tracks. Almost every DAW on the market will let you do it. It is a really good exercise to try, can give you good understanding of what is happening when summing signals together.
See ya,
M
P.S. If is is a polarity problem, you should find out what caused it, i.e. a revered cable.

RadioMoo · 30th June 2006

Don't run them both at the same level. Try pitching one of them up 2 cents. Try cutting some of the low-mids on one of them.

27th June 2006	#1
cassius Gear interested Joined: Jun 2006 Location: A van Posts: 6 Thread Starter	Double-Tracking Vocals I am trying to double-track the vocals on one of my songs, a la Elliott Smith, but running into some problems: -Both tracks, when played together, are quieter than either track played alone. -I can't decide if the tracks should be hard-panned left and right, or slightly blended together at, say, 10 and 2. -at one point, a third (falsetto) vocal part comes in with the double-tracked vocals. at that point, it sounds way too busy and disjointed.. the tracks aren't "working together" as i'd like them to. Any suggestions? -Cassius

30th June 2006	#9
stegdump Gear interested Joined: Nov 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 15	Flip it! Yeah, Sounds like you need to flip the POLARITY or one of your tracks. Almost every DAW on the market will let you do it. It is a really good exercise to try, can give you good understanding of what is happening when summing signals together. See ya, M P.S. If is is a polarity problem, you should find out what caused it, i.e. a revered cable.

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27th June 2006	#2
Reza Gear addict Joined: Feb 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 409	This is called phasing. Basically, the sound frequencies cancel each other out. You should read up about this as it will help your mixes alot!!!

27th June 2006	#4
zenkonami Gear nut Joined: Apr 2006 Location: North Hollywood Posts: 116	It's tough because it's kind of an effect...If the doubled vocal were exactly the same it would just be louder. I mean, you could single track and then mult out the vocal and play with it that way if you were just going for a bigger sound, but if your after like a Beach Boys thing... If you're using a DAW, you can try nudging the waveform over a bit until the peaks line up. That might help. Also, panning them hard left and right may help, though I don't know if that'll give you what you want in your mix. I do a lot of doubletracked vocals on my stuff, but also a lot of harmonies. If I buss them all over somewhere and compress them a bit (with a nice short verb tucked under) I get a nice tight effect, but I may be offsetting some of the phasing/volume issues due to having all those harmonies mixed in (or I'm just not noticing it as much in my mix.) If your mic is the same distance from you every time, and your performance is tight, then maybe it's a room issue? Some reflection somewhere? That's a crazy guess, though. There's my inexperienced (and worthless) $0.02

27th June 2006	#5
nathanvacha Lives for gear Joined: Dec 2005 Location: Orlando Posts: 1,231	The thing about elliott smith doing it was that he was extremely talented and very very thight. I've had singers before vary so much on the double sounds really weird. If you're just a little off, maybe try using two different signal chains on each take. If this is your own music, then you have some time to experiment. Find two different mics and pres and maybe compress one more than the other. Or if you don't have the time, compress each take separately and differently with different comps. It may not be the effect you're looking for, but try it, it may help. There is definitely phasing issues on elliott smith's vocals, pretty much all of them. It was a part of his sound. If I'm not mistaken, most of his songs were two tracks straight through with guitar and vocals all at once--the acoustic is doubled too... all that fingerpicking and singing is double tracked and wouldn't work if he wasn't tight.

27th June 2006	#6
aussie_techie Lives for gear Joined: Jan 2004 Location: Perth, Australia Posts: 2,709	flip the phase of one track .....

27th June 2006	#7
davode Gear nut Joined: Jan 2005 Location: new jersey Posts: 133	i wouldn't pan it, because your phase problem will still exist when you check your mix in mono.

29th June 2006	#8
666 Gear addict Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 382	I was gonna say, mix them in mono, get them sounding good (or retrack) then worry about panning. I'm personally a fan of loose double tracked vocals when they sound right.

30th June 2006	#10
RadioMoo Lives for gear Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 526	Don't run them both at the same level. Try pitching one of them up 2 cents. Try cutting some of the low-mids on one of them.