Fireface 800.

[Winey]

Has anyone ran a mix out of the Fireface analog outs and straight back in?
Either the converters really stink, or something is seriously wrong.
The top end is destroyed, and it's not subtle either. WTF?

I discovered this while I was patching in some outboard gear for an ITB mix.
It sounded so bad that I just patched Mogami TRS-TRS lines in and I still couldn't believe how bad it sounded just from the trip out and back in.
Wondering if other FF800 users have experienced this.
It worries me to say the least.

[TrueZebra]

i just wrote in the rossetta vs FF400 topic that all FF800 users are happy about their device....
e

[Winey]

The converters seem to sound fine when I'm tracking and monitoring.
This has got to be a bigger issue, as there is no way the converters alone could be doing what I'm hearing... at least I hope not.
Why would a simple single trip from the D-A - A-D sound this bad?
Once again the audio is not just a litlle dull after this, it's destroyed.

[kingofswing]

Originally Posted by Winey

The converters seem to sound fine when I'm tracking and monitoring.
This has got to be a bigger issue, as there is no way the converters alone could be doing what I'm hearing... at least I hope not.
Why would a simple single trip from the D-A - A-D sound this bad?
Once again the audio is not just a litlle dull after this, it's destroyed.

Are you recording in 16 bit or 24 bit, and what sample rate?

FWIW i have come out of my FF800 and back in at 24/96khz and it sound fine to me. At 16 bit, its a different story. Even 24/44 sounds pretty cool. It depends on the source material.

Also worth noting that the RME FF800 has better DA's than its AD's. The D-A is at 120db dynamic range, which is why it spoils you whilst tracking / playback. The A-D is over 112db dynamic range.

hope it helps.

[DrDeltaM]

I'm using a Fireface for outboard compressor loops. Sounds good here. Make sure to check levels yes, you could be clipping the AD. Also, you can select different reference levels for DA and AD stage. I run both at +4dBu.

[RainbowStorm]

Originally Posted by bugsstar

i just wrote in the rossetta vs FF400 topic that all FF800 users are happy about their device....
e

I hope they are not reading this thread, I mean that would be best for you...!

[theblotted]

how drastic we talking here?

just in case: did you check your cables?

cuz it sounds fine, and in fact i'm testing out the Totalmix's mix bus vs. Logic's mix bus as i'm typing this now. it's summing together at 2 outputs, out analog, in analog. still sounds fine (in fact better than before )

[RainbowStorm]

Originally Posted by Winey

Has anyone ran a mix out of the Fireface analog outs and straight back in?
Either the converters really stink, or something is seriously wrong.
The top end is destroyed, and it's not subtle either. WTF?

I discovered this while I was patching in some outboard gear for an ITB mix.
It sounded so bad that I just patched Mogami TRS-TRS lines in and I still couldn't believe how bad it sounded just from the trip out and back in.
Wondering if other FF800 users have experienced this.
It worries me to say the least.

Actually you can hear this sound degradation simply by using reveiling monitors on only one A/D/A conversion path. But now you convert twice and get more noticable side effects, in terms of thicker high end and less decay. Simply put, a lifeless sound. I guess you should try a jitter attenuation device like UPCI/JISCO to see if it will correct some of the problem. I have not tried these myself though, so I don't know if they work or not.

[TrueZebra]

so a not so good clock in the FF800 ?

I would check the cables, balanced to balanced and are they wired correctly.

Might i ask why you are going out of the fireface and straight back in ?
realtime conversion ?

[Winey]

hmmm.
24/44.1, good cables, levels were fine.
I might simply have a faulty FF.
It could be Nuendo external FX is messing with it somehow.
I'll try a few different things today.
I'll report back.

[Winey]

Originally Posted by bugsstar

so a not so good clock in the FF800 ?

I would check the cables, balanced to balanced and are they wired correctly.

Might i ask why you are going out of the fireface and straight back in ?
realtime conversion ?

I'm trying to send an ITB mix to a couple analog comps.
Cables are good.

[Rodney Gene]

I can do it right now without any noticable audio loss.
What exactly is the procedure you are performing?

Originally Posted by bugsstar

i just wrote in the rossetta vs FF400 topic that all FF800 users are happy about their device....

You mean like all Monitors? Or Mics? Or DAWs? Or any piece of gear that people research, try, buy and own?

I Agree. People tend to stick with gear that works for them.

Much Respect,

[kingofswing]

Originally Posted by RainbowStorm

Actually you can hear this sound degradation simply by using reveiling monitors on only one A/D/A conversion path.

FWIW I tried the Fireface 800 through the K&H o300s and Adam S3a's, and yes it still sounded great after in & out through the A-D-A.

[RainbowStorm]

Originally Posted by Winey

I'm trying to send an ITB mix to a couple analog comps.
Cables are good.

Are you using very good monitors? That will make the loss more audible and you will be more irritated about it...

[RainbowStorm]

Originally Posted by kingofswing

FWIW I tried the Fireface 800 through the K&H o300s and Adam S3a's, and yes it still sounded great after in & out through the A-D-A.

I think you need better monitors calibrated in the right way to hear the difference. My Mackie HR824s reveil the sound degradation, but of course much better monitors would reveil it much more.

BTW. My hearing was tested to better than normal, so it could be my ears as well, or the combination.

[Rodney Gene]

Originally Posted by RainbowStorm

I think you need better monitors calibrated in the right way to hear the difference. My Mackie HR824s reveil the sound degradation, but of course much better monitors would reveil it much more.

BTW. My hearing was tested to better than normal, so it could be my ears as well, or the combination.

You may find yourself in the deep minority if you believe the HR824's to be superior or more revealing than the S3a's.(Or a ton of other monitors for that matter). Nothing wrong with being in the minority if the results are there. But, since you do indeed have superior hearing than the average bloke, you might consider checking out some higher end monitors back to back, just to compare for yourself. Unless you have already?

In my experience it doesn't take much to hear where the Macks fall short.
They sound fine, they translate fine, they are great tool for the studio, they can be learned, they can be setup to work well etc.... but in my opinion, it really does get a whole lot better without much effort.

Much Respect,

[kingofswing]

what can i say, im lost for words

I don't have a problem with my ears or my hearing, infact they are better than average. I tend to hear things that others (close to me) have to try harder.

As for the Mackies, well i wouldnt call them revealing tutt

Have you heard the Adams or the K&H?

I also use my HD 600's which are much more revealing than those Mackies

[Winey]

I'm going to try it without using the Nuendo external FX routing. I think my problem is
most likely happening there.
I have a feeling it will be fine if I just take a group out to a new stereo track.
I didn't have any time to mess with it today, but I'm going to try it out when I get an extra hour away from sessions.
Thanks for the idea's.
I'll report back.

[Winey]

Well. Same deal not using Nuendo.
Sounds very dull after the straight D-A A-D loop.
Time for tech support I suppose.

[jgrif08]

not sure how this turned into a conversation about monitors... it seems clear to me from ur orignal post that something in the signal chain is faulty. i run my FF thru outboard all the time and far from `destroying' the audio it sounds great. if all the obvious stuff has already been checked then i would def get with tech support asap.

[Winey]

It's got to be the unit itself.
I'll have to test the other one I own to see if I get the same thing.
I do have 2 very early units as I pre-ordered them when they first came out.
I wonder if that could be the problem.
I do remember thinking each input sounded slightly different when I bought them. Not a good sign.
Now I wonder if my incoming audio has been effected with these units.
Not good if that's the case.
All this testing is making me crazy.
Thanks for the help you guys.

[RainbowStorm]

Originally Posted by Winey

Well. Same deal not using Nuendo.
Sounds very dull after the straight D-A A-D loop.
Time for tech support I suppose.

Unfortunately I think you should expect a certain amount of dullness from the way you are using this unit. Like I first pointed out, I can notice dullness only from one ADA when I'm using my Fireface. The Fireface has quite a lot of jitter and by doing it twice you will really get more than twice the amount of jitter noise artifacts in the signal. What sample rate are you using? Try lowering it to 44,1KHz if you haven't, that should improve the quality a bit...

To do these kind of loops I think you'll need something like a Benchmark ADC-1 and Benchmark DAC-1.

[DrDeltaM]

Originally Posted by RainbowStorm

Unfortunately I think you should expect a certain amount of dullness from the way you are using this unit. Like I first pointed out, I can notice dullness only from one ADA when I'm using my Fireface. The Fireface has quite a lot of jitter and by doing it twice you will really get more than twice the amount of jitter noise artifacts in the signal. What sample rate are you using? Try lowering it to 44,1KHz if you haven't, that should improve the quality a bit...

To do these kind of loops I think you'll need something like a Benchmark ADC-1 and Benchmark DAC-1.

I do such loops all the time on my Fireface when I'm mixing. I defenately gain more with the use of the outboard then I lose by making the DA-AD conversions IMO.

This short demo-mix I did has an independent I/O loop on almost all individual tracks:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attac...1&d=1147446625

[Winey]

Losing a bit of top would be one thing, but what I'm hearing is pretty drastic.
Maybe I should post a clip.
It's really easy to hear on any speakers.

I have separate FW800 cables going from the Lacie FW800 card to each FF800.
The units are not daisy chained.
The second FF800 is clocked (autosync) to the first (master).
The project I used for testing was 24\44.1.
FF800's are set to +4\+4.
I tried multiple short TRS - TRS lines to rule the cables out.
Same result with different cables.
I get the impression that the D-A is fine, and the A-D is messing things up.

I love the functionality of the RME, so hopefully I can get this solved and feel secure in using them.
I already started looking at the Lynx Aurora 16 online because I'm paranoid my tracks are being effected just running through the A-D at all.
I'll have to test the two units separately and see what happens.
This is strange for sure.

Thanks you guys.

[Winey]

Quick MP3 Clip.
This happens with BOTH my FF800's.
Strange.

I Don't know why - Live Analog FF800.mp3

I Don't know why - Live - pre-production- 01.mp3

[theblotted]

listened to the tracks. good song, btw.

my FF800 definitely doesn't sound like that after a ADDA loop. if any difference, it'll be VERY small.

question:

when you say you use "A/D", are you going thru either the Line or Mic in the front? do you get the same high-end attenuation thru the back?

i ask this b/c the ones in front goes thru the preamp (at least the XLR in's anyway), and that'll muddy things as the pre's aren't the most up to snuff. from the clips, it wouldn't surprise me if you did it that way. if you're going thru A/D on the back, i'll prob call RME.

[DrDeltaM]

Indeed, that difference isn't normal, something is wrong with your unit (if the rest of your signal chain is fine). Contact RME

[Winey]

Strange huh?
I'm going straight from line out to line in on the back.
What I'm wondering is, if both my FF800's are doing this, could it be a word clock issue or a bad FW800 cable?
It seems pretty strange to have the two FF800's both sounding like this.

I'm finally registered at synthax for tech support so I'll run it past them today and see what they think.

[theblotted]

so... how did you manage to record vocals, etc. without that attenuated high's? or did you do the tracking elsewhere?

i'm assuming this happens to all 8 in's on back?

bad FW800 cable isn't like an analog cable, you'll get more probs: serious latency, clicks & pops, if working at all. similar for word clock..

and have you tried experimenting w/ different settings in DDS/Steady Clock?

just to rule out other possibilities, have you also tried recording anything other than Nuendo?

[kingofswing]

That clip sounds terrible, nothing like the conversion i get from my Fireface, not even close. I use 24/44 most of the time too.