Forgive me if you've seen this posted on other forums. I am trying to build a consensus on this concept, so I thought I'd post the idea on this site as well:
My DAW of choice is Logic. I would like to explore the idea of working in Logic with Dell ST2220T touch screens running Touch-Base software drivers to create a full-featured/large-scale/low cost DAW control surface.
If the Touch-Base driver/ST2220T combo works, then one could buy two or three of them and use them as a touch screen mixer in Logic. Even with the $220 price tag for the software and $300/ea for the monitors, that solution would be far superior to any DAW control surface (Euphonix, Mackie, Behringer, etc.) in the following ways:
No stepper motor sounds inherent to motorized faders
Access to every mixer parameter directly--no assigning "v-pots" or faders
No wear and tear on faders and pots
WAY, WAY cheaper.
I could see having two or three conventional 1080p 22" monitors at eye level for plug-ins and the timeline window, etc., and two 22" touch screens on the desk at a low 15º angle as a 48+ channel touch screen mixer. Compare that in price to a Mackie MCU ($999) + 5 extenders ($699/ea = $4500 total). With more features, and completely silent operation.
When I saw the demonstration of the ST2220T online for the first time, my very first thought was that it might make DAW-based work more productive. When I found these YouTube links confirming that it could at least be done, I was surprised that more people hadn't tried it
Here's a clip of a guy who did it with another DAW:
Here's a demo of the Red Leaf guys who are selling a pricier 32" version of this idea:
Another demo by a competing company (WARNING: the audio track is irritating, and typos abound [obviously ESL]):
Another competitor, this one implementing multiple finger activation, i.e., you can move several faders @ once (up to all 10 fingers):
But these all-in-one solutions aren't as cheap as the one I'm proposing--TouchBase drivers and Dell's ST2220T monitors. BTW, according to Touch-Base's site, they have multi-gesture pretty much worked out for SL/Lion (Mac OS 10.6 &10.7). Maybe they'll work on a multi-finger version strictly for DAWs.
When I look at all of the control surface options for mixing big projects, anything decent is wildly expensive for what you get. Still, people buy them because they make work more productive, and in a studio time is money.
Assuming the hardware and software can be configured for reliable and responsive operation, I suppose the only other major drawback to the Touch-Base + ST2220T set up is you can only control one parameter at a time, like a mouse, whereas it is possible to move several faders at once with a dedicated piece of hardware like a Mackie MCU, Behringer BCF2000, Euphonix Artist, etc. I, for one, could live with that limitation (as I already do using a mouse) if the payoff were instant one-touch access to every mixer function on a 48+ channel onscreen mixer.
What say you, GearSlutz? Great idea, or just a glitchy gimmick and not a real solution for expanded DAW control?
When I've posted this idea at several forums, the reaction has generally been "meh." I don't know if that is a useful response or one coming from communities that don't like to take too many risks on new equipment ideas or configurations. Maybe the GS crowd will have a different take.
If all you want to do is to push faders, maybe. If you need to do editing, the resolution of touch screens will cause you to do an awful lot of zooming in and out... slowing down the workflow significantly and making it pretty annoying. I dislike touch screens, and looking down.
And if you want to push faders, you might consider using a d8b and the d8bridge software to turn that d8b into a DAW controller. Pretty cheap answer, too.
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If all you want to do is to push faders, maybe. If you need to do editing, the resolution of touch screens will cause you to do an awful lot of zooming in and out... slowing down the workflow significantly and making it pretty annoying. I dislike touch screens, and looking down.
If one is using Multitouch gestures, zooming in and out is quick and easy. I haven't played around with how accurate the touch pointing is, so you may be right on that, but how much worse could it be than using a mouse?
Also, I'd want to do a fair amount of experimentation as to monitor placement. Looking down more or less continually will give you quite a crick in the neck after a while, but having a touchscreen at 90º will lead to shoulder strain from reaching forward repeatedly to tweak. I think I'd keep the most important display items--tracks, editing, and plug-ins--in front of me, and the mixer itself lower. At least that would be a good place to start.
BTW, I don't just "want to push faders." I'd like to see them all during an automated mix, however, and have the ability to grab one instantly and alter the automation if I need to. Also, being able to view all mixer channels at once is just plain cool. I won't lie and deny that there isn't a purely aesthetic motivation as well as a productivity one.
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And if you want to push faders, you might consider using a d8b and the d8bridge software to turn that d8b into a DAW controller. Pretty cheap answer, too.
Funny you should say that. I've been watching the D8Bridge project with great interest. The only problem is that D8Bs are increasingly rare--especially ones that still function well. Mackie should just rerelease a gutted version as a DAW controller, buy out the software design from that developer to run it, and be done with it.
I used to work at a music store in 1997 when D8Bs were new tech, BTW. Everyone loved the idea and the hardware, but the entire system could get pretty buggy. BY the time they were rock solid and stable, it was all over.
The d8b doesn't have to work per se... meaning the computer part of the console is just used as a power supply for the console, and can be replaced by a computer power supply. So the typical d8b error messages involving problems with the hard drive or other parts of the CPU don't matter to the d8bridge.
The d8b doesn't have to work per se... meaning the computer part of the console is just used as a power supply for the console, and can be replaced by a computer power supply. So the typical d8b error messages involving problems with the hard drive or other parts of the CPU don't matter to the d8bridge.
As you can tell, I'm looking into it too.
Do you think Mackie would ever consider making a D8B-based "big brother" DAW controller to the MCU? Isn't there a HUGE market niche to be filled here? Wouldn't many home engineers be willing to spend $1500-2000 for a larger format controller with the D8B form factor?
Do you think Mackie would ever consider making a D8B-based "big brother" DAW controller to the MCU? Isn't there a HUGE market niche to be filled here? Wouldn't many home engineers be willing to spend $1500-2000 for a larger format controller with the D8B form factor?
I don't know. Tascam tried with the US2400 which was originally $3k, and found that they could not sell them for more than $750. But the truth is that by the time such an idea gets in the pipeline, through design and manufacturing and beta and finally getting into the market place is, at minimum, 3 years. Besides, you can't get people to agree upon what they want a product to do today, and whatever it does it isn't enough, or it costs too much. The dX8 is probably closer to what you wanted, but I poked holes in the design at trade shows as did enough other people that it was never really given a chance. The d8b is kinda huge for a controller, it is not a format that I would appreciate. I had the Mackie Control, didn't like the feel of the faders, but the size and the functionality were okay. (Unless you want to complain about the resolution...) Probably the best controller I've used was the CM Motormix. There are supposedly better ones out there now, but I'm not paying $7k and up.
Do you think Mackie would ever consider making a D8B-based "big brother" DAW controller to the MCU? Isn't there a HUGE market niche to be filled here? Wouldn't many home engineers be willing to spend $1500-2000 for a larger format controller with the D8B form factor?
I like the fact that you can extend the MCU with additional extenders to the number of faders/channels strips you need...
I like the fact that you can extend the MCU with additional extenders to the number of faders/channels strips you need...
It didn't take long using one to find that the Bank switch quickly moved me among the channels. I had expected to buy extenders but found that in my workflow they were not needed. (And each extender required it's own MIDI I/O ports.) The C4, now, that might have been nice.
It didn't take long using one to find that the Bank switch quickly moved me among the channels.
I had expected to buy extenders but found that in my workflow they were not needed.
Yes, I like the bank switch, too (and also the cubase fader groups) but I recognized that it slowed down my workflow - I like to control the superior drummer mic channels from inside my DAW instead of the SD plugin window, so I always have a high number of mixer channels and I find it more intuitive to have a fixed fader/channel assignment. Just found a used extender with new faders for 220$ on eBay recently - for projects with more than 16 tracks I can still make use of the fader banks
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Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome
(And each extender required it's own MIDI I/O ports.)
That's not a problem for me - most of my MIDI equipment (keyboard, Behringer BCR2000 and EDrum module) is connected via USB and additional MIDI-to-USB adapters for the MCUs aren't that expensive.
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Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome
The C4, now, that might have been nice.
That's also a highly looked after gadget on my eBay hunting list
Ok I just bought a ST2220T to use with Ableton Live 8 and Steinberg Nuendo. Picked it up for $332 (Australia).
Firstly, it is worth mentioning, there is no driver for this screen, it is all native to windows 7. Pretty cool, 1 less driver to worry about.
I have used the ST2220T for only a few days now with Ableton and a little in Nuendo, and the first thing I noticed. Touching up around the edges of the screen doesn't work to great, so I have had to window mode both programs.
In Nuendo, I can grab and hold a fader and slide it up and down. In ableton i have to touch where I want the fader to be.
Drag and drop of items in elive over from the library is straight forward.
Grabbing and moving knobs, is probably the hardest thing to get the hang of.
It seems to work a lot better in Nuendo than Ableton.
IIn regards to running multiple screens, I have read on other fourms people having problems running multiple screens with the touch only appearing on the first screen. For me its more than enough real estate, you can fit around 25 channels in the mixer in nuendo at 1920x1080 resolution.
Edited to ad:
Unless I am missing something, I can only seem to be able to manipulate one fader at a time, If put two fingers down, it just seems to register the mouse click in between my fingers. I believe this is due to the way this particular screen handles touch, it uses IR (hence the deep bezel) not actual touch like capacitive etc.
Also worth noting. I still use my mouse and keyboard a fair bit, there are somethings you just have to do that way. That said you could easily take the ST2220T out and use it as an ableton controller for a live performance. I believe some already are.
Ok I just bought a ST2220T to use with Ableton Live 8 and Steinberg Nuendo. Picked it up for $332 (Australia).
Thanks for getting back to this thread with your real-world experiences!
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Firstly, it is worth mentioning, there is no driver for this screen, it is all native to windows 7. Pretty cool, 1 less driver to worry about.
TouchBase drivers are still necessary to do this in the Mac world for now. One wonders if Mountain Lion won't have the same built-in touch features that W7 does, given that the touch-based iPad pretty much rules the tablet computing world (for now, anyway).
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I have used the ST2220T for only a few days now with Ableton and a little in Nuendo, and the first thing I noticed. Touching up around the edges of the screen doesn't work to great, so I have had to window mode both programs.
I noticed the TouchDAW people commenting on resting their hands on the outside bezel to avoid misreads.
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Unless I am missing something, I can only seem to be able to manipulate one fader at a time, If put two fingers down, it just seems to register the mouse click in between my fingers. I believe this is due to the way this particular screen handles touch, it uses IR (hence the deep bezel) not actual touch like capacitive etc.
I think it's more than that. Except for the one proprietary DAW touch screen system I posted a video of (the last one), I assumed that you could only do one thing at a time.
When Logic X comes out, maybe they'll have a special version of Multi-touch that specifically allows Logic to control more than one thing at a time via touch. Perhaps adding to the delay in release?!?
disfrontman, anymore progress on this? I'm making the switch to HDX and my Command 8 just died (power supply *literally* almost burned down my entire studio). Shoot me an email or share here and let me know. I like the idea of no learning curve for a new controller... And spending less than the $1200 the Euphonix Mix wouldn't hurt either.
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