Studio Upgrade Decisions & Suggestions

[mhbmusic]

Bump

[Mafiacondon]

What's your workflow like ? Flying between several songs (need recall) or finish it and next project.

Even as I am writing it I suspect it's recall you need. So the preamps in your list seem worth a further look.

Not the kind of descision easily reached.

[j2dafo]

what aren't you happy with in your recordings? What is the recording environment like?

Besides having a few big name mircophones, i'm sure your mod'd stuff and the rest of your locker do a fine job already, looks like you have good tools already to do the music you mentioned. if you are working on only your own stuff right now, spend 1k and get 2 days in a studio to lay down drums.

[mhbmusic]

Thanks guys for responding. I usually do fly between songs so recall is important. Also, I just sold my Mac Pro 2x2.66 (2006 model) as I found a great deal locally on a Mac Pro 6 core 3.33ghz with 16GB ram. I think the computer upgrade alone will really help. Now I'm just trying to figure out what my next purchase will be. I'm thinking the A Designs Pacifica as it will give me dual channel for my Oktava MK012-01 Mics for Acoustic Guitar recordings.

Then I'll be having a buddy who works at a local studio come by to help me with signal chain and hooking up the patchbay. His father works for a cabling company, so I think he may be able to hook me up with any special cables I may need.

Goal is to utilize outboard analog gear in an efficient way, while still being able to recall as much as possible. I know writing any outboard gear to tracks will be necessary for recall.

Any other suggestions are welcomed and much appreciated.

[mhbmusic]

Here are a couple pictures of the room. It is an "L" shaped room and not a square room so that has helped.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

If you don't mind me saying so, it appears to me that you have a whole pile of stuff (typically, we would call that ten pounds in a five pound bag...), and a lot of redundancies, while in my opinion there are some pieces that maybe aren't as good as they could be. If I were in your position I would sit down and make a long term plan with specific time-met goals when it comes to equipment, and probably lose a big chunk of what exists today while trying to attain a consistent quality level across the board. (Though my personal fave is to lean a little towards the monitoring chain.)

If you have a plan and follow it, you avoid buying things because everyone is talking about them this week, and you carefully consider what products are available in your price range when you set out to acquire a piece in it's time frame. It is a more efficient use of your money though it is nowhere near as sexy as getting the hots for a piece and running out and buying one.

Just my opinion.

[mhbmusic]

Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome

If you don't mind me saying so, it appears to me that you have a whole pile of stuff (typically, we would call that ten pounds in a five pound bag...), and a lot of redundancies, while in my opinion there are some pieces that maybe aren't as good as they could be. If I were in your position I would sit down and make a long term plan with specific time-met goals when it comes to equipment, and probably lose a big chunk of what exists today while trying to attain a consistent quality level across the board. (Though my personal fave is to lean a little towards the monitoring chain.)

If you have a plan and follow it, you avoid buying things because everyone is talking about them this week, and you carefully consider what products are available in your price range when you set out to acquire a piece in it's time frame. It is a more efficient use of your money though it is nowhere near as sexy as getting the hots for a piece and running out and buying one.

Just my opinion.

OK, Can you be specific on the comment about "lot of redundancies"? Also yes, keeping the long term goal in sight is a good idea and already in place. Hence the first step being a computer upgrade.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by mhbmusic

OK, Can you be specific on the comment about "lot of redundancies"? Also yes, keeping the long term goal in sight is a good idea and already in place. Hence the first step being a computer upgrade.

3 sets of monitors, 3 strats, 3 macs, and look at the plug in list. There is redundancy there.

A good set of near field studio monitors might be on my list. (I am familiar with the Allisons.) I'd probably get rid of all the monitors and buy one really good pair. (In fact, my Westlakes/Bel Canto are hooked to the electric drum kit, my smaller Dunlavys went into the living room surround system, and there is only one pair of studio monitors in my setup.)

I'm also kind of a fan of mics, but I'm with you about a mic pre when I look at the choices you have for acoustic guitar. I'm fond of Pete and ADesigns, and I'm one of the guys who likes the Great River NV, I also am partial to the sweet sound of the Midas XL-42 with that wonderful eq. I have 2 channels of each in my room, along with a pair of John Hardys. Any would be a good choice for acoustic guitar. I have an all maple Santa Cruz Model F cutaway, a 1968 Gibson J-160e, and a 1980-vintage Washburn Tanglewood Artist that I record, usually with an AKG C-28 and Neumann KM84i.

But that is me, and that might not fit your needs. As I said, re-eval, start from now, plan for the future.

If you do think you'll be recording 16 to 24 tracks at a time, a console might be the right move. If not, a console is kinda in the way a lot of the time, eating a big footprint to be mostly a volume control for the monitors.

[mhbmusic]

Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome

3 sets of monitors, 3 strats, 3 macs, and look at the plug in list. There is redundancy there.

A good set of near field studio monitors might be on my list. (I am familiar with the Allisons.) I'd probably get rid of all the monitors and buy one really good pair. (In fact, my Westlakes/Bel Canto are hooked to the electric drum kit, my smaller Dunlavys went into the living room surround system, and there is only one pair of studio monitors in my setup.)

I'm also kind of a fan of mics, but I'm with you about a mic pre when I look at the choices you have for acoustic guitar. I'm fond of Pete and ADesigns, and I'm one of the guys who likes the Great River NV, I also am partial to the sweet sound of the Midas XL-42 with that wonderful eq. I have 2 channels of each in my room, along with a pair of John Hardys. Any would be a good choice for acoustic guitar. I have an all maple Santa Cruz Model F cutaway, a 1968 Gibson J-160e, and a 1980-vintage Washburn Tanglewood Artist that I record, usually with an AKG C-28 and Neumann KM84i.

But that is me, and that might not fit your needs. As I said, re-eval, start from now, plan for the future.

If you do think you'll be recording 16 to 24 tracks at a time, a console might be the right move. If not, a console is kinda in the way a lot of the time, eating a big footprint to be mostly a volume control for the monitors.

I see I should have explained a bit better on the gear list. The Allison's are for my stereo set-up with my vintage Marantz receiver. I know the way they sound with music I listen to regular and so they are a good last test. I was thinking of selling the yamaha HS80's and getting a nicer pair of near field like you suggested.

[SonicAlchemist]

Definitely look at the Millennia Media HV-3C = $1850 (2 channel mic pre)

Then I would get a stereo pair of great mics, not cheap mics that have been modded.

I would throw all my budget at this to get unbelievable acoustic recordings.

[mhbmusic]

Originally Posted by SonicAlchemist

Definitely look at the Millennia Media HV-3C = $1850 (2 channel mic pre)

Then I would get a stereo pair of great mics, not cheap mics that have been modded.

I would throw all my budget at this to get unbelievable acoustic recordings.

Thanks. Have you heard the Oktava MK012-01 mics before? I've heard a number of A/B tests with expensive mics like the Nuemann K184's. Also, these are the real russian models and not the cheap chinese. I'm sure there are better mics out there, but I feel these are great mics and don't feel they limit my recordings. I could be wrong. If you were to suggest a stereo pair, what would it be?

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by mhbmusic

Have you heard the Oktava MK012-01 mics before?

I owned a pair of the originals with the multiple capsules and pad. They weren't bad but did not stand up to the AKG 451s, 460s, C-28s and C-26s, Neumann KM 84s and 83s that I already owned. If I were to recommend a good inexpensive pair I'd probably opt for used AKG 460s or original 451s. I am not 'up' on all the sub-$100 offerings out there today.

[over-man]

Monitors! Seriously, my Sonic Animas (or spiral groove studio ones) have been the best purchase I've ever made. If I had to start over again, it would be my first purchase. I feel foolish for spending so much on mics, pres, etc., when monitoring is so critical!

[mhbmusic]

Originally Posted by over-man

Monitors! Seriously, my Sonic Animas (or spiral groove studio ones) have been the best purchase I've ever made. If I had to start over again, it would be my first purchase. I feel foolish for spending so much on mics, pres, etc., when monitoring is so critical!

Thanks. I completely agree and I think this is the main source for my mix issues. I was looking into the following, but those Spirals look great as well. These are the one's that were previously suggested to me by some top engineers.

ProAc Studio 1 MKII
ProAc Studio 100
Adam A7X
And now...Spiral Studio One's

Thanks for putting me back on track with Monitors

[mhbmusic]

Hey Over-Man. What would you say would be a good price for the Sonic Anima's? If I can find a pair on Ebay or CL?

[SonicAlchemist]

Originally Posted by mhbmusic

Thanks. Have you heard the Oktava MK012-01 mics before? I've heard a number of A/B tests with expensive mics like the Nuemann K184's. Also, these are the real russian models and not the cheap chinese. I'm sure there are better mics out there, but I feel these are great mics and don't feel they limit my recordings. I could be wrong. If you were to suggest a stereo pair, what would it be?

yeah, they're ok. But I think you can do better.

in fact, i've changed my mind about what I'd recommend. I'd say forget the stereo pair of mics and get one really awesome mic and the Millennia stereo pre.

You could get a Neumann M147 and the Millennia stereo pre with a little bit to spare.

That would be a serious upgrade to the material you begin with, and that improvement will help at every stage in the process.

I agree monitors are important, but I'd do this first.

[over-man]

Originally Posted by mhbmusic

Hey Over-Man. What would you say would be a good price for the Sonic Anima's? If I can find a pair on Ebay or CL?

I bought mine with a custom stain from fellow gearslut Brian Lucey before they changed names and were actually released, so I'm not sure what a good deal on a used pair would be...but decision making at every step of the process becomes so much easier, they're worth every penny.

[explorer]

As well as monitors I would invest in acoustic treatment. Take a look at GIK acoustics or ask at the acoustics section of gearslutz for advice. Everything you listen to or record is affected by the acoustics of the room.

[mhbmusic]

Originally Posted by SonicAlchemist

yeah, they're ok. But I think you can do better.

in fact, i've changed my mind about what I'd recommend. I'd say forget the stereo pair of mics and get one really awesome mic and the Millennia stereo pre.

You could get a Neumann M147 and the Millennia stereo pre with a little bit to spare.

That would be a serious upgrade to the material you begin with, and that improvement will help at every stage in the process.

I agree monitors are important, but I'd do this first.

Found this for 900. Good deal? What's the difference between the Millennia Media HV-3 and the HV-3C? Seems there are a few versions floating around.

[SonicAlchemist]

Originally Posted by mhbmusic

Found this for 900. Good deal? What's the difference between the Millennia Media HV-3 and the HV-3C? Seems there are a few versions floating around.

if you can test it out and your jaw drops to the floor, then i'd say get it used. I generally only buy used gear from studios/producers/composers I know and can test out in person.

as for the difference, you can read about it here: HV3 Mic Pre vs HV3C?

[mhbmusic]

Originally Posted by SonicAlchemist

if you can test it out and your jaw drops to the floor, then i'd say get it used. I generally only buy used gear from studios/producers/composers I know and can test out in person.

as for the difference, you can read about it here: HV3 Mic Pre vs HV3C?

Thanks for the link. I've been looking into the millenia HV3C as well as the Pacifica and the Vintech X73i for a while now and just found 2 Vintech X73i's from a friendly GS member. They arrive tomorrow, so I'm excited to hook em' up and do some testing on various sources. I've heard nothing but great things about these. I also, have been researching nearfield monitors for an upgrade. Get's a bit confusing with all the options and the fact I'll need a poweramp with most of the one's I'm looking at.

Overall, I understand the upgrades that are needed and just taking my time to plan things out for long term.

Any other suggestions are more than welcome and thanks to all the one's thus far. Cheers

[lucey]

Best things to do are room/monitors/ converters, everything else comes easy after that:

Metric Halo LIO 8, or the unit with pre amps. Calistro Music

Powered Avantones/Spiral Groove Studio Ones

Bass trap and hf treat your mixing and tracking rooms


Not a sexy list but far and away the most useful. Clients tracking with the MH and mixing with the SGS1 are killin in. ITB mixing with minimal mix outboard is plenty colorful with better AD initially

Often tons of outboard is masking bad tracking.

[Sir Chris]

Dam, I have Yamaha HS80's that I use for mixing and after reading this I feel like I took a wrong turn in life. Is spending months saving up $3k for a pair of Spiral Grooves w/amp really going to have that much of an impact on my mixing?

I'll admit, I'm not always 100% happy with my mixes. I feel like I get 90% of the way but always felt that something was missing and assumed a critical outboard gear along my signal chain while tracking might be the answer.

[mhbmusic]

Originally Posted by Sir Chris

Dam, I have Yamaha HS80's that I use for mixing and after reading this I feel like I took a wrong turn in life. Is spending months saving up $3k for a pair of Spiral Grooves w/amp really going to have that much of an impact on my mixing?

I'll admit, I'm not always 100% happy with my mixes. I feel like I get 90% of the way but always felt that something was missing and assumed a critical outboard gear along my signal chain while tracking might be the answer.

Hey Chris, I don't think you made a wrong turn at all. Great mixes can be made with the HS80's. But I do hear you as far as the 90% of the way.

You may want to look into the UAD plugins. Since adding them to my set-up, I've seen a great increase in quality of mixes. Of course, what you upgrade in your studio depends on the type of music and recordings you are goiing for.

What type of music? Acoustic guitars, vocals...?

[lucey]

Originally Posted by Sir Chris

Dam, I have Yamaha HS80's that I use for mixing and after reading this I feel like I took a wrong turn in life. Is spending months saving up $3k for a pair of Spiral Grooves w/amp really going to have that much of an impact on my mixing?

I'll admit, I'm not always 100% happy with my mixes. I feel like I get 90% of the way but always felt that something was missing and assumed a critical outboard gear along my signal chain while tracking might be the answer.

As a mastering engineer I hear close to 2000 songs a year, and the number one thing that matters for newer mixers is monitoring. Seasoned mixers also have great monitoring. It's not so easy on crap speakers in your crap room.

If you can't hear it you can't fix it.

I was an analog tape/console guy forever. If I was a mixer today I'd be Metric Halo, good pres, and all in the box like Tchad Blake does it. Monitoring with Studio Ones, and Avantones. Tracking through something big and ugly and loud. Done. Top notch, no barriers.

All the gear in the world wont get you that last 10%, and really that's the only 10% that matters. Anyone can do a mix that sounds like a demo. The last 10% is all that matters. The last 1-3% is where the big boys live.

Don't let people who are not committed to quality and looking to save a little tell you to save your money on monitors, while they buy more outboard colors. That's so wrong. Monitoring is #1. AD conversion is #2.

I started my home studio in the mid 90s with shit gear, and always looked to upgrade ... the money was not important it was the sound and the results.

[Sir Chris]

Mhbmusic please forgive me if this took a slant from your original post. I'm hoping you've made your decision purchase and this thread can carry over to other new studio guys with similar sentiments as your original post.

Lucey, thanks for your reply. Your opinion and experience is incredibly valuable to me. As for my situation I have a decent/versitle mic locker and for pres I lean heavily on my Vintech X73 and ISA One going into an RME FF800 while monitoring thru HS80's (same as OP).

My next purchase is certainly towards a D Box (mainly for monitoring and bonus of OTB summing). More 705 rigid fiberglass for bass traps. Then looking at same monitor options as OP (Spiral Groove or Avatone), finally top off with a good HW comp for master bus (looking at Vintech 33609 clone).

Would love to hear anyone's thoughts if this is efficient use of $$. I am tracking hard rock/metal bands with the occasional singer/songwriter and Maroon 5 type bands.

Btw Lucey, as far as sending off tracks for mastering. Do you prefer tracks being no more than -6dB peaks or RMS -6dBfs? I was never sure which would be ideal. Sorry if this is a bit off topic.



Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk

[mhbmusic]

Originally Posted by lucey

[/b]

As a mastering engineer I hear close to 2000 songs a year, and the number one thing that matters for newer mixers is monitoring. Seasoned mixers also have great monitoring. It's not so easy on crap speakers in your crap room.

If you can't hear it you can't fix it.

I was an analog tape/console guy forever. If I was a mixer today I'd be Metric Halo, good pres, and all in the box like Tchad Blake does it. Monitoring with Studio Ones, and Avantones. Tracking through something big and ugly and loud. Done. Top notch, no barriers.

All the gear in the world wont get you that last 10%, and really that's the only 10% that matters. Anyone can do a mix that sounds like a demo. The last 10% is all that matters. The last 1-3% is where the big boys live.

Don't let people who are not committed to quality and looking to save a little tell you to save your money on monitors, while they buy more outboard colors. That's so wrong. Monitoring is #1. AD conversion is #2.

I started my home studio in the mid 90s with shit gear, and always looked to upgrade ... the money was not important it was the sound and the results.

I agree with a lot of what your saying here Lucey and Studios Ones with a nice amp is the next purchase on my list. One thing I'd like to add though is that I've done mixes on my HS80's and some of my top engineer friends love my mixes. In fact, my mastering guy loves getting my tracks to master.

Today, 90% or more end listeners are doing so online, iPods, computers, etc. and no longer are most people playing music on high def systems. So for young people who are trying to actually make great music, sometimes spending 3k on monitors isn't even an option.

If I was making 100K a year off my music, I'd invest in top gear all the way. That is after the family bills are paid and the wife gets all those fancy shoes she wants.

But again, I do agree that monitors are over looked way too often by beginners. And the main reason is, they usually aren't in the budget, while actually needing to be.

When I do get my studio ones, I'm definitely going to re-mix a song on them that I mixed previously and compare the two. I'm very interested to see how different they sound. And I may be back here posting something like, "save every penny you've got and sell everything you don't need and buy a pair of good monitors."

Also....
To let everyone know I ended up finding a pair of Vintech X73's from a fellow GS and could not be happier. The only downside I've found with them is not a huge amount of Headroom, and the EQ doesn't really get used much because I'm not a fan of committing to EQ when tracking. Other than that I have seen a huge difference with my stereo acoustic guitar recordings. Chain is. Oktava MX012-01>Vintech X73>Digi002 BLA Sig Mod>Pro Tools

[lucey]

As far as monitors ... whatever works. Maybe your ear and your monitor got lucky in love. However most new mixers mix by feel with not much thought, so I recommend Studio Ones in combo with Avantones. Start and end the mix on Avantones. Do all the middle work on S1s

The best money you can spend is always on the weak link in your chain. In my experience Metric Halo converters, room treatments, Avantones and S1s yield mixes from newbies in the top tier fairly quickly no matter the other factors.

There are many mastering forum threads on how to submit, personally I don't care the level as long as you love it and you mixed with your volume up, not trying to be loud at mixing. That's where problems arise

Tchad sends mixes through 4 limiters. Some people send mixes hitting 0dbfs. If it sounds good on many systems it is good. Ill take it

Turn up your volume. Crank your eqs. Be brave and free. Enjoy mixing. Don't fear

Music is vibration organized in time. Your personal vibration matters. No fear about the technicals. Just don't over compress to be loud. Compress for the style, sound, mojo. Any well balanced mix can be loud.