What should be the strongest piece in your chain

[prizebeatz1]

monitor pads

[Kierkes]

Yeah, James. The gearslutz have developed a reflex against this type of thread: ROOM. PLACEMENT. SKILL. MUSICIAN. SONG! It's for a REALLY good reason though. You have yourself and your room together, unlike a lot of people who start on here. (I'm not ashamed to admit that I was one of those.) So I won't assume that you don't maximize your equipment and answer your question.

I'm going to echo psycho_monkey here and tell you to focus on eliminating bottlenecks in quality. As far as sound goes (and again, I assume you're adequately skilled and dogged enough to make what you have work for you 110%, I have to answer that the mic is the most important. The signal processing and the conversion may impart things to the sound, but the microphone is capturing the crap out of it. That being said, the microphone is such a simple thing to fix, and in keeping with psycho's message, has a very small propensity to being the weakest link compared to the other things in a chain, probably people are more sensitive to the distinctions between microphones. While I don't recommend basing things off of samples, how often have you gone to listen to a sample of a mic you're interested in, damn the rest of the chain? In contrast, how often do you hear samples of preamps and not think, "Man, it's not the same microphone. I don't learn anything from that!"

A crappy pre will probably do more harm than a "crappy mic," (people don't get as hung up about their microphones and are much more prone to changing them out than pres) but a crappy interface will basically break your recordings. Luckily, interfaces and preamps, like microphones, are becoming better for less money.

I'd say until you start to really get up there in moolah, keep the attention you give to the different parts of your chain equally distributed; you can get a really long way if your give ~$500 to each element in your chain. $1000 if you plan to use onboard interface pres.

[tmfcovers]

Well, let's get into specifics. What are you recording? Just yourself singing and playing an instrument? Or yourself playing an instrument and then overdubbing vocals? Or yourself and/or a group playing a whole band's worth of instruments? And what genre of music? These kinds of things will make a pretty significant impact on what's best for your situation. And do you already own any gear? If so, what?

Also, don't apologize for being a noob. Everyone here was a noob at one point. In fact, it's quite likely that you're not the only one here. In fact, I'll readily admit that I'm still a bit noobly. But I've also learned a thing or two lately and I think I can help.

[trevjonez]

Since your room is covered and monitoring is not the huge argument here.
Imo get a mic that best suits the source first. Second grab a good pre amp. Then go for ada.

I treated my room to sonic death and rely on convolution verbs to put the life back in. Made a huge difference to my drums. Tight and clean.

My next move is buy 4 cad m179's for toms and then start building out two racks of sca pre's and a lunch box of vp26. Then maybe an apollo or aurora 16

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

sorta lost the definition of a chain along the way, haven't we?

[Bluesdog]

Originally Posted by JamesN

What in your opinion should be the strongest piece in your chain: the microphone, preamp, or converter/interface/soundcard? Assume you can only have one top-end piece, are you going to get the top mic? Top pre? Top interface? Which is going to have the greatest benefit? Tough call eh? Thought this might be an interesting discussion.

I don't agree with the obvious "you are the most important link"-answer simply because that's not what the guy is asking. I think a lot of threads could be a lot more informative if everybody would just answer the initial question and always treat the OP as one of your own heroes asking that question instead of always assuming it's a newbie with a bad sounding room and no recording skills.

I'd say a top mic (this can be an sm57 or high end tube mic) with decent preamp/converters/interface.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by Bluesdog

...threads could be a lot more informative if everybody would just answer the initial question and always treat the OP as one of your own heroes asking that question instead of always assuming it's a newbie with a bad sounding room and no recording skills.
.

well, it is really sort of a trollish question. But the real answer about what the most important part of any recording setup would be is: The Monitor System. That's everything from the DAC to the room/room treatment.

You have no idea what you've done if you cannot hear it accurately.

Bringing up another point... your ears respond to frequencies differently at differing levels. Without a stepped attenuator calibrated to a repeatable playback standard, you are just guessing.

[NEWTON IN ORBIT]

Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome

sorta lost the definition of a chain along the way, haven't we?

Yup

Since we are going there, you must obtain the highest quality Lava Lamp money can buy. Also. don't forget single cup coffee machine and xbox 360 / Sony PS. These must be meticulously maintained at all costs.


Joking...but kinda not. Even way back in the day, we had a Star Wars pinball machine setup in the lobby / lounge. Caffeine and atmosphere are kinda a big deal too. This worked wonders keeping band members occupied when waiting around during overdubs.

I'm with Bill, monitoring path, then maybe room, then mics, then converters, and on from there.

Good musicians not being part of the "chain" are obviously the most important thing, without which you would have nothing to record.

john

[JamesN]

Originally Posted by tmfcovers

Well, let's get into specifics. What are you recording? Just yourself singing and playing an instrument? Or yourself playing an instrument and then overdubbing vocals? Or yourself and/or a group playing a whole band's worth of instruments? And what genre of music? These kinds of things will make a pretty significant impact on what's best for your situation. And do you already own any gear? If so, what?

Also, don't apologize for being a noob. Everyone here was a noob at one point. In fact, it's quite likely that you're not the only one here. In fact, I'll readily admit that I'm still a bit noobly. But I've also learned a thing or two lately and I think I can help.

Ok, so the music is vaguely indie/folk/rock. I am recording acoustic guitar, bass, electric guitar, some piano, all one at a time then overdubbing vocals. Going to take the tracks to a studio to record drums and maybe mix/master there too. I have an ST77, some Mogami Gold cables, a Rickenbacker 4001, Fender Jazz, Telecaster, powerful PC with Harrison Mixbus, and that is about it. Don't have a pre or interface, i guess i was wanting a PCIe of some kind.

[jetam]

The most important is the source - instrument and musician. Than I'd say the microphones.

[Wylekalker]

Originally Posted by Kierkes

A crappy pre will probably do more harm than a "crappy mic," (people don't get as hung up about their microphones and are much more prone to changing them out than pres) but a crappy interface will basically break your recordings. Luckily, interfaces and preamps, like microphones, are becoming better for less money.

If only one thing is to be upgraded, this.

[mikeyman]

preamp...then ADDA CONVERTERS

[Hardtoe]

The answer is the mic of cOurse

[Kierkes]

Originally Posted by NEWTON IN ORBIT

Yup

Since we are going there, you must obtain the highest quality Lava Lamp money can buy. Also. don't forget single cup coffee machine and xbox 360 / Sony PS. These must be meticulously maintained at all costs.

I must be missing out on this lava lamp trope.

Originally Posted by Wylekalker

If only one thing is to be upgraded, this.

I mentioned three things. What did you mean?

[popmann]

Monitor+DAC is hugely important, particularly if you're mixing yourself. In terms of the input signal, mic ALL the way. Which doesn't mean it needs to be expensive...but, it means if it was designed in the last 15 years, AND is inexpensive, skip it.

If you're tracking only and someone else is mixing, you should probably prioritize the mic first then preamp.

But, when I say mic first...if you're tracking drums and EGtrs, that could be $100-300 dynamic and pencil (sdc) MICS. Then, move to nice preamps.

But, here's the key...if you don't have nice conversion and monitoring, don't spend much time picking out them...let the person mixing give you feedback. Stick with industry standard mic choices and make music.

[JamesN]

Originally Posted by popmann

Monitor+DAC is hugely important, particularly if you're mixing yourself. In terms of the input signal, mic ALL the way. Which doesn't mean it needs to be expensive...but, it means if it was designed in the last 15 years, AND is inexpensive, skip it.

If you're tracking only and someone else is mixing, you should probably prioritize the mic first then preamp.

But, when I say mic first...if you're tracking drums and EGtrs, that could be $100-300 dynamic and pencil (sdc) MICS. Then, move to nice preamps.

But, here's the key...if you don't have nice conversion and monitoring, don't spend much time picking out them...let the person mixing give you feedback. Stick with industry standard mic choices and make music.

Good stuff. I am not tracking drums at home and i want to be able to use one mic for everything else. I have an ST77 - should i replace it first or is it passable? I won't cry if i have to upgrade, whatever is going to help my songs get across properly.

[JamesN]

I have reviewed the opinions (so far) and despite a number of vague responses (similar to answering "yes" to the question "what is five plus seven?") it looks like about 11 or 12 votes for microphone, about 3 for preamp, and about 3 for conversion - and then (shockingly!) a few smart-ass remarks. Over 50% of the responses didn't actually form a response of any kind . . . i feel a bit like Mr. Hand (anybody?). Only on gearslutz eh? Oh well, you guys are still more helpful than the gear page.

The question was "out of the three which is most important - mic, pre or interface?" How do you come up with "Singer" or "Room" from "mic, pre or interface?". That is like saying to somebody "choose red, yellow, or blue paint for the house" and their reply is "purple" or "the design of the house is really more important than the paint color . . ." It doesn't quite help me but it is comedic, so all is not lost I'm not bent out of shape or anything, just slightly amused.

Person 1: "So we have bacon or sausage for breakfast, which do you want?"
Person 2: "I really prefer ham"
Person 1: "We don't have ham"
Person 2: "Just saying that ham is going to best satisfy my hunger"
Person 1: "Uh . . . good. So bacon or sausage"
Person 2: "Maybe we could save up and get some ham"
Person 1: *tosses bacon in frying pan and cooks it*

The bottleneck points are well taken, thanks, that wasn't the question but its relevant and actually helpful, i appreciate the genuine help. I don't mind if you say "room then monitors and then mic" . . . i'll take that as mic since the first two are handled. But things like "musician" are pointless remarks. Why would you assume i think gear is more important than myself and my songs? I'm not a gear expert but that doesn't mean musically i don't know what i am doing. Obviously I already have myself and am happy with what i do which is why i am looking to record myself and what i do, and obviously if i wasn't sure what to do about a room i would be asking if that was more important than a mic. No big deal though, i know you're trying to be helpful, but what would be really helpful would be to say:
"out of the three . . (insert mic, pre or adc)" since that will help me decide how to spend money . . . but if you feel you can help more by responding with something different i appreciate the input. At the end of the day i am going to consider all opinions and make my own decision anyway. So thanks all, and keep the advice coming, much appreciation. I guess everyone has their own angle. Good stuff.

[Wylekalker]

Originally Posted by Kierkes

I must be missing out on this lava lamp trope.


I mentioned three things. What did you mean?

I interpreted it as a decent interface is probably most important, as you stated it can basically break a recording. And not just with ADDA, but clocking can be a big issue too if the internal clock is lousy.

My general opinion is that a good preamp can make a "bad" microphone good, but a bad preamp can make a great microphone bad. However, a great microphone with great preamp can still get smeared and butchered by a bad interface.

But that's only if there is to be only 1 really strong part of the chain. I agree with whoever said having the gear be mid-level is better than having one high-end piece and the rest low-end.

I will also add that I've never really encountered an unusable microphone. Certainly ones that I'd rather not use again, but could be made to work if I had no choice.

[popmann]

Originally Posted by JamesN

Good stuff. I am not tracking drums at home and i want to be able to use one mic for everything else. I have an ST77 - should i replace it first or is it passable? I won't cry if i have to upgrade, whatever is going to help my songs get across properly.

Only you can answer whether it's good enough. I would ask you...I have never used that mic.

I always recommend self recording singer/songwriters get an sm7 and an sm81. Theyre like $700 new (less used-and there's a lot of them)...and they beat the crap out of any LDC twice their price on things typically recorded overdub--vocals, amps, acGtrs, hand percussion...get those...get a good preamp and an interface with a LINE level input. Tracking scenario done until you want to spend exponentially more money.

There's always this question asked "what is the best general purpose mic for $1500?" If you had that money, you could head over to the classifieds, and pick up a Great River preamp, and the two MICS I said...and it would eat alive the sound of a $1500 LDC into an interface preamp, you know?

End of the day...overdub tracking isn't rocket science. If people will stick to older design mics, that have been stress tested for years, they will usually end up with a more pliable, mix able sound than whatever guitar center import of the week will...for similar $$.

[Rockenberry]

The most important is the artist performing of course, but then it's up to you and you should have taken care of the.....

ACOUSTICS!

What's the point in having all the 'Gucci' gear and the very expensive setup if you can't even verify as to whether or not it translates well at all in your room???????

If you are recording an excellent performer, but somewhere in the tracking room there is a null at 80Hz where you are recording, the best mic in the world won't pick up much or anything at that frequency and thus it won't pass through your very expensive ADC, which in turn won't come out of your very expensive monitors and you may end up mixing compensating for an 8db dip which will sound awfull in the outside world.

My philosophy is: Do it right from the start and it isn't a good start recording an instrument where chunks of its frequency is missing due to the acoustics of the room.

Also...

There's a difference between very expensive monitors in a crap room (acoustically), than middle of the range monitors is a well balanced room (acoustically).

That's why the point is drummed in here on Gearslutz, it would be good practice to take the hint!

There won't be many pros or people good in this field whom allow the philosophy of, "get the good gear and don't worry much about the room, maybe chuck some treatment random acoustic panels on the wall and it will all be ok! Heck! It will look the business!".

Ok, whilst I have gone to the extreme I have heard people say that!

That's why there are thousands of threads with people asking pros why their mixes don't translate well!

And guess what the pros mention first off.......

"....now, about your room....."

If your room is damn good, you can start off with just good equipment and it will allways be better than 'Gucci' equipment in a crap room.

I hope you all find this helpfull.

Rock.

[Bluesdog]

Originally Posted by JamesN

I have reviewed the opinions (so far) and despite a number of vague responses (similar to answering "yes" to the question "what is five plus seven?") it looks like about 11 or 12 votes for microphone, about 3 for preamp, and about 3 for conversion - and then (shockingly!) a few smart-ass remarks. Over 50% of the responses didn't actually form a response of any kind . . . i feel a bit like Mr. Hand (anybody?). Only on gearslutz eh? Oh well, you guys are still more helpful than the gear page.

The question was "out of the three which is most important - mic, pre or interface?" How do you come up with "Singer" or "Room" from "mic, pre or interface?". That is like saying to somebody "choose red, yellow, or blue paint for the house" and their reply is "purple" or "the design of the house is really more important than the paint color . . ." It doesn't quite help me but it is comedic, so all is not lost I'm not bent out of shape or anything, just slightly amused.

Person 1: "So we have bacon or sausage for breakfast, which do you want?"
Person 2: "I really prefer ham"
Person 1: "We don't have ham"
Person 2: "Just saying that ham is going to best satisfy my hunger"
Person 1: "Uh . . . good. So bacon or sausage"
Person 2: "Maybe we could save up and get some ham"
Person 1: *tosses bacon in frying pan and cooks it*

The bottleneck points are well taken, thanks, that wasn't the question but its relevant and actually helpful, i appreciate the genuine help. I don't mind if you say "room then monitors and then mic" . . . i'll take that as mic since the first two are handled. But things like "musician" are pointless remarks. Why would you assume i think gear is more important than myself and my songs? I'm not a gear expert but that doesn't mean musically i don't know what i am doing. Obviously I already have myself and am happy with what i do which is why i am looking to record myself and what i do, and obviously if i wasn't sure what to do about a room i would be asking if that was more important than a mic. No big deal though, i know you're trying to be helpful, but what would be really helpful would be to say:
"out of the three . . (insert mic, pre or adc)" since that will help me decide how to spend money . . . but if you feel you can help more by responding with something different i appreciate the input. At the end of the day i am going to consider all opinions and make my own decision anyway. So thanks all, and keep the advice coming, much appreciation. I guess everyone has their own angle. Good stuff.

OP explaining and emphasising his initial question, to gently guide people towards just answering his f*ck*ng question please, pretty please.

Then this post comes along...

Originally Posted by Rockenberry

The most important is the artist performing of course, but then it's up to you and you should have taken care of the.....

ACOUSTICS!

What's the point in having all the 'Gucci' gear and the very expensive setup if you can't even verify as to whether or not it translates well at all in your room???????

If you are recording an excellent performer, but somewhere in the tracking room there is a null at 80Hz where you are recording, the best mic in the world won't pick up much or anything at that frequency and thus it won't pass through your very expensive ADC, which in turn won't come out of your very expensive monitors and you may end up mixing compensating for an 8db dip which will sound awfull in the outside world.

My philosophy is: Do it right from the start and it isn't a good start recording an instrument where chunks of its frequency is missing due to the acoustics of the room.

Also...

There's a difference between very expensive monitors in a crap room (acoustically), than middle of the range monitors is a well balanced room (acoustically).

That's why the point is drummed in here on Gearslutz, it would be good practice to take the hint!

There won't be many pros or people good in this field whom allow the philosophy of, "get the good gear and don't worry much about the room, maybe chuck some treatment random acoustic panels on the wall and it will all be ok! Heck! It will look the business!".

Ok, whilst I have gone to the extreme I have heard people say that!

That's why there are thousands of threads with people asking pros why their mixes don't translate well!

And guess what the pros mention first off.......

"....now, about your room....."

If your room is damn good, you can start off with just good equipment and it will allways be better than 'Gucci' equipment in a crap room.

I hope you all find this helpfull.

Rock.

[Go Nigel Go]

If I had X dollars to spend on a mic, preamp, and converter, and after setting up a chain that was fairly balanced quality wise found myself with extra money to spend upgrading one item, I would probably upgrade the mic first. Just me, my 2 cents, ymmv. The nice thing about componentized set ups is that you are never locked into a single solution forever. You can make a valid case for any position on this question. I'm surprised no one has brought up the cables yet...

[hughbob]

i vote for the mic being the most important link in the chain. of course the musician and the instrument are more important, but anyone who gives those as the answer is being a smartypants.

[JamesN]

Originally Posted by Go Nigel Go

If I was had X dollars to spend on a mic, preamp, and converter, and after setting up a chain that was fairly balanced quality wise found myself with extra money to spend upgrading one item, I would probably upgrade the mic first. Just me, my 2 cents, ymmv. The nice thing about componentized set ups is that you are never locked into a single solution forever. You can make a valid case for any position on this question. I'm surprised no one has brought up the cables yet...

Thanks for the input - cabling is Mogami Gold.

[JamesN]

Looks like Mic is the popular choice (out of the three). Starting at the source does seem very wise. I don't doubt of course that one bad piece could "bottleneck" things up though. Interesting to get everyone's perspective.

[JamesN]

Originally Posted by Rockenberry

The most important is the artist performing of course, but then it's up to you and you should have taken care of the.....

ACOUSTICS!

What's the point in having all the 'Gucci' gear and the very expensive setup if you can't even verify as to whether or not it translates well at all in your room???????

If you are recording an excellent performer, but somewhere in the tracking room there is a null at 80Hz where you are recording, the best mic in the world won't pick up much or anything at that frequency and thus it won't pass through your very expensive ADC, which in turn won't come out of your very expensive monitors and you may end up mixing compensating for an 8db dip which will sound awfull in the outside world.

My philosophy is: Do it right from the start and it isn't a good start recording an instrument where chunks of its frequency is missing due to the acoustics of the room.

Also...

There's a difference between very expensive monitors in a crap room (acoustically), than middle of the range monitors is a well balanced room (acoustically).

That's why the point is drummed in here on Gearslutz, it would be good practice to take the hint!

There won't be many pros or people good in this field whom allow the philosophy of, "get the good gear and don't worry much about the room, maybe chuck some treatment random acoustic panels on the wall and it will all be ok! Heck! It will look the business!".

Ok, whilst I have gone to the extreme I have heard people say that!

That's why there are thousands of threads with people asking pros why their mixes don't translate well!

And guess what the pros mention first off.......

"....now, about your room....."

If your room is damn good, you can start off with just good equipment and it will allways be better than 'Gucci' equipment in a crap room.

I hope you all find this helpfull.

Rock.

See my above post

Point well taken though, Room and Monitoring are crucial.

[mikeyman]

don't listen to them.Get one of those BLA D173 neve clones 450$ and upgrade your mics as you go along

[theJesusHorse]

@James M- What is your budget?

I recommend you get a high quality two channel interface such as the RME Babyface. I would much rather have two channels of very good converters and clean pres than eight channels of mediocre ones. You can do almost anything with two channels and if you need more the Babyface has an ADAT input, so you could add a Focusrite Octopre or some other multi-pre solution.

Also, the interface is the one constant in your signal chain. You will want to use different mics and pres for different applications and sounds, so there is no one "best" choice for those.

Another option, if you are absolutely sure you won't be needing more than one input, is the Focusrite ISA One Digital. It has a digital out that you could send to a cheap pc S/PDIF or ADAT card(some pc's have an optical input built in).

[Rockenberry]

Originally Posted by Bluesdog

OP explaining and emphasising his initial question, to gently guide people towards just answering his f*ck*ng question please, pretty please.

Then this post comes along...

Bluesdog,

Firstly, there is no need to swear. I'm sure you have a sufficiently adequate vocabulary not to have to do that...you do, right?

Secondly, your post is the longest and you didn't really say much at all, besides point towards the fact that I didn't answer the thread creator's question, so it was unnecessary.

Thirdly, I did answer the question. It's just that you didn't realise it because I didn't pick anything from the ill constructed and lacking menu provided. Now, I don't know if it's because you have a fundamental lack of knowledge within this field and have posted your waste of time post to be the actual smarty pants, instead of insinuating that I am.

What's the point of asking a question about good gear and wanting to know which is best in the chain, without the main ingredient.

It's like asking, what the most important component in a cake: the icing, decorations, flour or milk?

I'm saying: what about the eggs?

Your saying: just answer the question!

Well, no your not actually, your saying: answer the f***ing question! ????

That's why there are an abundance of threads here that ask the pros to help with mixes and after heavy digging, it is discovered that the main problem is the room.

Yet there is always reluctance to discuss the subject!

I know it's because it costs the most money to sort out, but come one! It has to be discussed!

Did you know that if you had a good room, you wouldn't have to disproportionately set money aside on a ridiculously expensive piece if kit!

You could just buy good kit and it would sound so much better!

Posted with fear of repeating my self.

I just saw this waste of time post marching itself with ill-conceived confidence towards the thread.

Yours respectfully, Bluesdog.

Rockenberry.

[DaveUK]

So we mostly agree microphone. ,given decent converters and pres ?..
Oh and acoustics!!!
:+)