Getting my 1st Tascam 424... Some questions

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Nebraska was cut on something like a 234 (I think that was the designation, I've got one in my rack) not a portastudio. There have been a few iterations of the 424 . A good friend of mine bought one when they were brand new and had nothing but problems with it. It went back to Tascam more than once before he finally gave up on it. Others have posted here about how good their model was. I don't know. Were I wanting a cassette machine, I'd be looking for one with a better rep than this particular model.

[thefanbelow]

Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome

Nebraska was cut on something like a 234 (I think that was the designation, I've got one in my rack) not a portastudio. There have been a few iterations of the 424 . A good friend of mine bought one when they were brand new and had nothing but problems with it. It went back to Tascam more than once before he finally gave up on it. Others have posted here about how good their model was. I don't know. Were I wanting a cassette machine, I'd be looking for one with a better rep than this particular model.

Any suggestions? I'd imagine all old tape recorders run that risk due to age but I've heard great things

[jlsgear]

I'd have to ask why anyone would want a cassette based deck these days?

Forget about recording on cassette tape then transfering to a DAW .. bad idea .. that just won't work very well at all.

A ZOOM H2 digital gadget will give you FAR better recording results .. and fit in the palm of your hand .. Just a few more bucks .. less if used. And that's only one option.

Why not record right into your daw ??

[XodiaK]

id recommend the 234. this way you can pick and choose a better mixer, and keep the tape deck seperated. also, the 234 would be much easier to work on if necessary. although, the 424 isnt a bad machine. if the 424 is in great shape and hardly used, it could serve you well. not bad at all for 100 bucks.

[eh91311]

The pic links in your post are of a 424 mkIII, one generation newer than the mkII. Good machine. I like my mkII because it has a 'pause' button where the mkIII transport doesn't, only play and stop. As long as it works as it should, looks like a great deal for $100.

424mkIII has only eq, no onboard effects. Best to buy another computer recording interface to replace your MobilePre with enough inputs so you can bring in all 4 tracks of the 424mkIII at the same time and mixdown or add more parts in the computer, along with effects (compression, eq, reverb, delay) from plugins. There's plenty of interfaces and inexpensive outboard mic preamps to choose from. I'd buy used when possible.

[Black Shadow]

When you're over there, maybe ask the guy to do a little test recording (just his voice with a mic). If it sounds good, go for it.

[thefanbelow]

So I just by pure luck was offered a 424 for free (not an MK, just the original). It has no noticeable flaws, just a little dirty, but there is no power supply and I don't have any tapes to start messing around with it. So some questions.

1) Any suggestions for tapes that can be used on the 424 AND the 424 mkIII (if I do end up getting it since I'm not sure if the 424 works).
2) Also, since I will want to have 4 tracks sent to my DAW for a final mixing, is it possible to use 2 pre amps? I already have a mobile pre, and I was thinking maybe I could hook both up to send 2 tracks to each at the same time, or is that impossible?

Originally Posted by XodiaK

id recommend the 234. this way you can pick and choose a better mixer, and keep the tape deck seperated. also, the 234 would be much easier to work on if necessary. although, the 424 isnt a bad machine. if the 424 is in great shape and hardly used, it could serve you well. not bad at all for 100 bucks.

Yeah its hard to turn down this deal. Thanks for the suggestion though! I will keep it in mind if things dont work out.

Originally Posted by eh91311

The pic links in your post are of a 424 mkIII, one generation newer than the mkII. Good machine. I like my mkII because it has a 'pause' button where the mkIII transport doesn't, only play and stop. As long as it works as it should, looks like a great deal for $100.

424mkIII has only eq, no onboard effects. Best to buy another computer recording interface to replace your MobilePre with enough inputs so you can bring in all 4 tracks of the 424mkIII at the same time and mixdown or add more parts in the computer, along with effects (compression, eq, reverb, delay) from plugins. There's plenty of interfaces and inexpensive outboard mic preamps to choose from. I'd buy used when possible.

What do you suggest for the pre amps? I already have a mobile pre, but was thinking about getting an ART one... I plan on using a 57 and maybe a cheap condensor or just might use 2 57's.

Originally Posted by Black Shadow

When you're over there, maybe ask the guy to do a little test recording (just his voice with a mic). If it sounds good, go for it.

I asked him for a recording. Thanks!

[XodiaK]

Originally Posted by thefanbelow

Any suggestions for tapes that can be used on the 424 AND the 424 mkIII?

What do you suggest for the pre amps?

type II high bias (chrome) cassettes are best. they sound better. less tapey hissing noise. IF you can find them. they are getting harder and harder to find retail. in fact, I personally havent seen type II cassettes retail in ANY store for about 2 years. BUT you can order a box of 25 from Musician's Friend, and theres other places online that still carry them in bulk.

just about ANY outboard preamps will be better than the onboard preamps on any of the 424s.

heres a pic of my sealed retail tape collection

[DCtoDaylight]

Maxell XLII ftw! I used a LOT of those back in the day. The XLII S are good too.

To the OP - definitely give the cassettes a try; it's fun to do things like learn how to slam your levels (seriously - drive the levels as hard as you can). The medium has a ton of limitations, but hey, sometimes that can drive you in a good/fun direction.

[thefanbelow]

Originally Posted by XodiaK

type II high bias (chrome) cassettes are best. they sound better. less tapey hissing noise. IF you can find them. they are getting harder and harder to find retail. in fact, I personally havent seen type II cassettes retail in ANY store for about 2 years. BUT you can order a box of 25 from Musician's Friend, and theres other places online that still carry them in bulk.

just about ANY outboard preamps will be better than the onboard preamps on any of the 424s.

heres a pic of my sealed retail tape collection

May seem like two dumb questions, but high bias cassettes will still not take away the tape saturation and color present on so many of my fav recordings (Iron & Wine, Elliott Smith.... stuff like that) correct? Also, I'm assuming when a tape only takes 15 minutes of data, if you record 5 takes of 3 minute songs wrong, you need a new tape right... No recording over that? Im such a rookie... I have a lot to learn

Originally Posted by DCtoDaylight

Maxell XLII ftw! I used a LOT of those back in the day. The XLII S are good too.

To the OP - definitely give the cassettes a try; it's fun to do things like learn how to slam your levels (seriously - drive the levels as hard as you can). The medium has a ton of limitations, but hey, sometimes that can drive you in a good/fun direction.

I checked those out they look good, a little bit expensive though, no?

[XodiaK]

Originally Posted by thefanbelow

May seem like two dumb questions, but high bias cassettes will still not take away the tape saturation and color present on so many of my fav recordings (Iron & Wine, Elliott Smith.... stuff like that) correct? Also, I'm assuming when a tape only takes 15 minutes of data, if you record 5 takes of 3 minute songs wrong, you need a new tape right... No recording over that? Im such a rookie... I have a lot to learn



I checked those out they look good, a little bit expensive though, no?

recording at 2x speed (which the 424 does), a 60 minute tape gives you 15 minutes of recording time because you dont flip sides of the tape. likewise, a 90 minute tape will give you 22 minutes. the record/play head on these units use the full width of the tape in one direction. also, recording at 2x speed increases the sound quality. and yes, you can still saturate the high bias type II tape, overdriving it to distort slightly. after experimenting a little, you will find the sweet spot with how hot you wanna drive the input levels before it turns to mush. dont bother worrying about Maxell XLII-S or TDK SA-X(S) tapes, although if you come across some at a decent price i would grab 'em up, they are great tapes. people are paying way too much for these on ebay if you search. also, you are able to reuse your tapes, just like in a standard cassette deck. just make sure you wipe all 4 tracks in one pass before reusing, otherwise you will hear your old recording pop up unexpectedly.

[thefanbelow]

Originally Posted by XodiaK

recording at 2x speed (which the 424 does), a 60 minute tape gives you 15 minutes of recording time because you dont flip sides of the tape. likewise, a 90 minute tape will give you 22 minutes. the record/play head on these units use the full width of the tape in one direction. also, recording at 2x speed increases the sound quality. and yes, you can still saturate the high bias type II tape, overdriving it to distort slightly. after experimenting a little, you will find the sweet spot with how hot you wanna drive the input levels before it turns to mush. dont bother worrying about Maxell XLII-S or TDK SA-X(S) tapes, although if you come across some at a decent price i would grab 'em up, they are great tapes. people are paying way too much for these on ebay if you search. also, you are able to reuse your tapes, just like in a standard cassette deck. just make sure you wipe all 4 tracks in one pass before reusing, otherwise you will hear your old recording pop up unexpectedly.

So just look for other high bias tapes? And I'm confused about the tape lengths. If I can re-record over them over and over again, let's say I have a 4 minute song that I want to put 6 tracks on to. Could I fit that all on one tape cause thats 24 minutes and goes over the limit... And how does this work with bouncing when you have a combined length of over 22... Man this is confusing!!

[XodiaK]

Originally Posted by thefanbelow

So just look for other high bias tapes? And I'm confused about the tape lengths. If I can re-record over them over and over again, let's say I have a 4 minute song that I want to put 6 tracks on to. Could I fit that all on one tape cause thats 24 minutes and goes over the limit... And how does this work with bouncing when you have a combined length of over 22... Man this is confusing!!

unlike digital (harddrive) recording time, tape is a physical length. the amount of tracks in your song dont affect the recording time on the tape, regardless of how many bounces you do. on a 60 minute tape, you get 15 minutes (in 2x speed mode) regardless if you only use 4 tracks, or bounce and do 6 or 8 tracks.

[sleepyhollos]

I have never considered driving a cassette deck. Maybe I should dig out my old Fostex 280 and do some experimenting with it. Maybe a squash track to mix back in with the drums... Hmmm. Could the old 280 be creeping back from under the bed?

[XodiaK]

Originally Posted by sleepyhollos

I have never considered driving a cassette deck. Maybe I should dig out my old Fostex 280 and do some experimenting with it. Maybe a squash track to mix back in with the drums... Hmmm. Could the old 280 be creeping back from under the bed?

if youre talking about sending a stereo drum buss stem to the deck and back into a daw, just be aware of possible phase issues that could arise due to tape drag or transport speed inconsistencies. this could very well make the mixed version with both playing sound weaker and thin. although, you could realign and adjust in the daw. depending on how consistent the transport and motor is, it might work fine, or it might be more time consuming and trouble than its worth. try it.

[NoVi]

Right now, I'm working on my Tascam 424MkII, transfering some old cassette tapes into the 21st century Very trustworthy machine. But the recording/playhead part is ofcourse the most volatile part of the machine, so if you have some way to check it out, do it. As mentioned earlier the machine in the picture is the MKIII

[Black Shadow]

Originally Posted by XodiaK

if youre talking about sending a stereo drum buss stem to the deck and back into a daw, just be aware of possible phase issues that could arise due to tape drag or transport speed inconsistencies. this could very well make the mixed version with both playing sound weaker and thin. although, you could realign and adjust in the daw. depending on how consistent the transport and motor is, it might work fine, or it might be more time consuming and trouble than its worth. try it.

I've tried this and it does not work. Tascam Portastudio motors have little speed inconsistencies which will result in reimported audio no longer matching up with the original tracks. You'll have to resort to some serious cutting and time stretching before you have something that corresponds roughly with the original tracks. Total PITA.

You can of course give your digital drums the cassette treatment, fly them back to your DAW and overdub everything else onto the new "cassetted" drums tracks, but be aware that MIDI and click are out the window from there on out in the process. You're off the grid, which can be a good or a bad thing.

That said, the pitch control wheels on these things can make for some seriously cool drum sounds, courtesy of Abbey Road Beatles experimentation:

- program digital drums at twice the normal speed.
- fly them into the Portastudio with the pitch control all the way to the right.
- on playback, turn the pitch wheel to the left to a point where you like the speed.
- the resulting drum sounds will be deep and the cymbals real mushy and grainy sounding.

[XodiaK]

if youre talking about trying to use it as a stereo buss toy with a degree of more precision, on track #4 you could print time code, then have the daw slave chase the tape, because theres no way to make the tape machine accurately lock to the daw timing, and use tracks #1 & #2 for your L/R audio. in this scenario, the tape machine has to be the master if you want better results. but we're talking about a cassette machine here, so i really doubt anyone would go to that length or effort for this. simply striping a few clicks at the head and tail of the song works just fine for alignment purposes, which ive done many times without major issues. also, that pitch control dial is +/- 10-12% speed up and down, not half and double speed. you can make some cool sounding effects using that, but to achieve what you are describing you would need to play the drums into the unit at double speed also recording on tape at double speed, then playback the tape at normal speed.

[eh91311]

For preamps to use with your "new" 4-track portastudio, cassette portastudios are already less than hi-fi sounding, so I'd suggest a clean-ish and uncolored pre like the Studio Projects VTB-1 (in solid-state mode), a M-Audio DMP3 or Aphex 107. Not expensive when bought used, plus you get usable phantom power for your condenser mic. The VTB-1 has a instrument DI input so you can record your guitars/basses/keyboards direct without an external direct box. VTB-1 is one channel, DMP3 & 107 are 2-channel pres. All should be less than $100 on the used market.

ART Tube MP's are affordable new but they are not the clearest sounding pre's, especially at higher gain.

[sleepyhollos]

Originally Posted by XodiaK

if youre talking about sending a stereo drum buss stem to the deck and back into a daw, just be aware of possible phase issues that could arise due to tape drag or transport speed inconsistencies. this could very well make the mixed version with both playing sound weaker and thin. although, you could realign and adjust in the daw. depending on how consistent the transport and motor is, it might work fine, or it might be more time consuming and trouble than its worth. try it.

I guess so. I'll probably give it a shot though and see what happens. It will be interesting to hear the results. If the sound is a bit unreliable it might work out for some uses. Could make for an interesting sound that could be used as a feature in a section if not the whole thing. Experimentation can sometimes give rise to some interesting harvests of sound.

If it doesn't work out then I'll just put it down to experience. I like messing with sounds. I bought an old tape deck once and sometimes I use the mic pre on that with an SM57 on a guitar amp and can get some interesting and creative sounds. Worth a shot I'd say.

Cheers

[chessparov]

Just for historical accuracy "Nebraska", was recorded on a 144...

Chris

[thefanbelow]

So I'm about to get it in the mail. Do I need, and would I benefit from something to mix down on to like a cassette deck?

[eh91311]

Originally Posted by thefanbelow

So I'm about to get it in the mail. Do I need, and would I benefit from something to mix down on to like a cassette deck?

No benefits to mixing down to a cassette. Mix down your 2-track masters to your Mobile Pre/computer rig.

[thefanbelow]

Originally Posted by eh91311

No benefits to mixing down to a cassette. Mix down your 2-track masters to your Mobile Pre/computer rig.

I wanted to mix down to cassette to keep most of my analog sound but if I can maintain it digitally I am not opposed

[sean1]

Originally Posted by thefanbelow

So I just by pure luck was offered a 424 for free (not an MK, just the original). It has no noticeable flaws, just a little dirty, but there is no power supply and I don't have any tapes to start messing around with it. So some questions.

i'm not sure but i'm pretty sure the original 424 only has 2 outs instead of the four you will need to get the 4 tracks simultaneously into your daw (to avoid drifting.) the mkii should have the 4 outs needed.

please let me know if i am mistaken

[OldTimey1]

Originally Posted by thefanbelow

I wanted to mix down to cassette to keep most of my analog sound but if I can maintain it digitally I am not opposed

I would not mixdown to any analog format unless it's a three-head machine. Otherwise you can't monitor the mixdown post-tape. Most cassette players, other than the very high end nakamichis and some more expensive tascams are 2-head.