Cheap Solutions To Improving Room Sound

[Chrisc_o]

There's an acoustics forum here. Do a search. Look around. Lots of good info just waiting for you.

[Beat Poet]

Hanging moving blankets on the walls with beds sheets over the top is a low-cost way to get started and remove some of the nastiness.

[jrides]

Make some bass traps, and say no to foam

[Tom Higgins]

Originally Posted by jrides

Say no to foam

Sounds like a campaign! Nevertheless, I very much agree

[realizewhoitis]

8lb moving blankets make a huge difference.

[JLiRD808]

All u need is egg-crates or some cardboard drink holders from mcdonalds. Dont buy into all the other marketing hype.

Haha totally kidding...u need to decide how much of the room sound u even need/want. U might want to build some gobos or some kind of half-wall that flanks u to keep some of the sound "in" and doesnt bleed ALL OVER THE ROOM and then back. Im not sure how good playing into the corner is either.

And i agree about foam, though its decent for upper mids n highs supposedly. Foam traps only go down to like 300hz or something like that.

[2manyrocks]

How I built my bass traps...

Interesting thread that covers a lot of DIY options for building your own traps. About half way or so through, there's a couple of really outstanding trap designs. It's worth looking through.

And say no to foam.

[thejamman555]

Originally Posted by 2manyrocks

How I built my bass traps...

Interesting thread that covers a lot of DIY options for building your own traps. About half way or so through, there's a couple of really outstanding trap designs. It's worth looking through.

And say no to foam.

I had a quick look and its a great read and seems fairly easy to do.

Soundwise im looking for something fairly dead so i can hear each part of the kit nice and clear i dont really want any room sound as its a teaching space more than anything

Why is everyone anti-foam tiles? Surely they will tame the sound to a certain extent?

The bass traps look like a great idea and would be a nice project.

[dubmunkey]

Yeah im not sure why everyone is anti foam... Its improved the sound in my room... Has had no effect on bass but tamed high freq reflections and the nasty cheap room sound...

[thejamman555]

Originally Posted by dubmunkey

Yeah im not sure why everyone is anti foam... Its improved the sound in my room... Has had no effect on bass but tamed high freq reflections and the nasty cheap room sound...

Good im glad youve it useful, where abouts in the room do you have it placed?

My question really is which one is better to go for deeper v wedges, pyramids, wave shape?

[dubmunkey]

Originally Posted by thejamman555

Good im glad youve it useful, where abouts in the room do you have it placed?

My question really is which one is better to go for deeper v wedges, pyramids, wave shape?

Not sure... I have egg carton shaped foam and deadens the room well...its on all walls and ceiling

[thejamman555]

Ok cool is there any chance you could post a pic, im not sure how much i would need? I was thinking about trying one pack and taking it from there

[Chrisc_o]

Originally Posted by dubmunkey

Not sure... I have egg carton shaped foam and deadens the room well...its on all walls and ceiling

Sure, but at what frequencies? That stuff is only good for highs and maybe higher mids, which are also the most obvious and superficial offenders. That stuff will stop echos when you clap your hands, but if that's all you have then you are guaranteed to have some peaks and valleys in your low-end (that sounds kind of dirty! ).

[2manyrocks]

Originally Posted by thejamman555

Why is everyone anti-foam tiles? Surely they will tame the sound to a certain extent?

The bass traps look like a great idea and would be a nice project.

Mainly, foam is overpriced relative to DIY options, IMHO. Part of me suspects that it would take some fairly substantial treatment to tame a set of drums. From a performance and a budget standpoint, that's why my first suggestion would be the DIY route.

[dubmunkey]

Originally Posted by Chrisc_o

Sure, but at what frequencies? That stuff is only good for highs and maybe higher mids, which are also the most obvious and superficial offenders. That stuff will stop echos when you clap your hands, but if that's all you have then you are guaranteed to have some peaks and valleys in your low-end (that sounds kind of dirty! ).

My prior post mentions i know it wont stop bass... It was just to get rid of reflections and cheap room sound for recording...

Am currently weighing up whether i should get bass traps or buy something like arc... But I digress...

[ivansc]

At the risk of being mocked, you could just buy some rolls of rocksil/rockwool insulation and stand it up in the corners of your room - the more the merrier.

This isnt going to be the ideal solution but it is quick and cheap and effective

And if you are not impressed you can use it to save energy by putting it up in the roof space of your home.

[JLiRD808]

Originally Posted by thejamman555

Good im glad youve it useful, where abouts in the room do you have it placed?

My question really is which one is better to go for deeper v wedges, pyramids, wave shape?

Theyre basically the same...the thicker u go the better though. Taming highs is not difficult and will make ur room sound "nicer" as u like. But yes, more advanced treatment would require bass and mid range trapping.

Kinda a shameless project would be to fill out auralex's room analysis form and submit it. They'll give u some general specs on placement of tiles free of charge

[NEWTON IN ORBIT]

I hate to even go here, because somebody will come along and call me an idiot.

Don't totally discount foam. At least SONEX brand foam anyways. The 3-4" stuff works wonders, and it can tame a drum kit. Depends on your room too. If you have no parallel walls, or few, it can work.

It was all the rage in the 1980's and early 90's in project studios, and iso booths in larger places. I have made many records in places with just SONEX, with no serious setbacks, other than it can get a bit too dry / dead.

The thin auralex stuff doesn't work nearly as well IMO. I have tried it, and still have some in my rooms.

The SONEX, is cut to mimic the surface of an anechoic chamber, and is surprisingly good.

That said, it is expensive, and hence people buy auralex and the like, and don't get results. Then, later they post on the internet about how "Foam sucks." "Say no to foam" etc. It has become a common internet mantra.

I have a combination of diffusers, roxul AFB traps, SONEX, and auralex going on here. A hodge podge, but it works.

I tried basically treating my drum room entirely with fabric covered AFB, and it sounded as bad to me as a completely covered foam room. Very dead. Find the problem areas with a measurement mic and an analyzer / waterfall plot, and treat only what needs treating.

Also, Roundbadge is a smart individual. A few packing blankets on the cheap works wonders.

Running away before I am mowed down by the bass trap panel distributors and acoustics forum guys....

Just kidding. They could really help you the most if you had the $.

Good luck.

john

[2manyrocks]

Originally Posted by ivansc

At the risk of being mocked, you could just buy some rolls of rocksil/rockwool insulation and stand it up in the corners of your room - the more the merrier.

This isnt going to be the ideal solution but it is quick and cheap and effective

And if you are not impressed you can use it to save energy by putting it up in the roof space of your home.

Absolutely practical advice as is John's caution that not all foam should be judged the same.

[Jimmi Accardi]

Wouldn't it be better if the drums were facing out instead of toward the
walls?

[tINY]

Re: "Body missing near window"

The window lets the bass frequencies pass through, while reflecting the higher frequencies (where the foam actually does some good).




-tINY

[thejamman555]

Wow massive amount of help since i last looked, your all far too kind!

In the room i dont find its overly bassy at all, but i think its the higher frequencies i need to address. What tINY says makes perfect sense to the sound im hearing in the room.

Jimmy accardi - Unfortunately its a 7 piece kit and by turning it around it takes up so much more space in the room and would make it a lot more difficult to get to so its not really an option.

At first i didnt really think that the foam tiles would only react to certain frequencies but sounds like just what i need for the time being!

The next question would be where to place them in the room, i often see four put together in diamond shape, Jlird808 - well have a look on the auralex site

thanks for your help everyone!

[Puffer Fish]

Originally Posted by NEWTON IN ORBIT

Find the problem areas with a measurement mic and an analyzer / waterfall plot, and treat only what needs treating.

Yes. Analyze the space and then you'll KNOW what needs treated and then of course, treat accordingly! Maybe you actually need some of the thin foam to eliminate the high frequencies. Maybe you need a whole lot of bass traps. I have NO IDEA. No one else does either unless they have some analysis of the space to make good choices about treating the room.

We made bass traps for our large room--DIY---and they work very well indeed. I have used packing blankets to build a temporary recording booth and that worked pretty well. There are low-dollar solutions. Some plywood, the right types of loose insulation, fabric to wrap panels and so on can easily be built and custom fit to your space. But seriously, find out what you need first and make the effort worth while.

[JLiRD808]

^^^ Not as simple as u think. Measuring is usually only good for freq ~300hz or below. The reason is that even the slightest adjustment of ur omni condenser will cause freqs above that point to jump around like crazy.

Waterfall plots are also only for the low end....and it sounds like he doesnt have low end issues (he probably does, but doesn't care since its just for playing/teaching)

[Chrisc_o]

Originally Posted by thejamman555

In the room i dont find its overly bassy at all, but i think its the higher frequencies i need to address.

Hearing issues at higher frequencies is easy. Hearing issues at lower frequencies is actually very difficult unless you know what to listen for and how to go about identifying them.

Peaks and valleys in lower frequencies are generally only heard at specific points in the room. You have to be physically standing exactly in a peak or valley to hear it. Move an inch and you don't hear it anymore. Not as simple as many may think, but I guarantee that if you don't have anything to treat the lower frequencies you will have issues down there.

[JLiRD808]

Originally Posted by Chrisc_o

...but I guarantee that if you don't have anything to treat the lower ________ you will have issues down there.

Thats gross

[Stevil]

on the cheap i'd do Ultratouch in the corners, mexican/moving blankets or cheap rugs on the walls & curtains over the windows (the thicker the better).


check the studio construction forum!

[NEWTON IN ORBIT]

Originally Posted by thejamman555

Wow massive amount of help since i last looked, your all far too kind!

In the room i dont find its overly bassy at all, but i think its the higher frequencies i need to address. What tINY says makes perfect sense to the sound im hearing in the room.

Jimmy accardi - Unfortunately its a 7 piece kit and by turning it around it takes up so much more space in the room and would make it a lot more difficult to get to so its not really an option.

At first i didnt really think that the foam tiles would only react to certain frequencies but sounds like just what i need for the time being!

The next question would be where to place them in the room, i often see four put together in diamond shape, Jlird808 - well have a look on the auralex site

thanks for your help everyone!

And so it goes...

The top end gets treated, you work in the room for a couple of weeks, thinking "Wow! This is soooo much better, sh*t, I can make a record in here!"

Then, you go to clear up some fighting in the mix between the 200 hz in the kick drum, and the 80-220 in the bass guitar, and you soon realize that you will have to treat the rest of the issues in the low end as well to get it to even approximate a commercial release. For two reasons, and it gets worse if tracking and mixing in the same room:

One is that, the instruments were tracked with this muddiness, and by the time you lay down many tracks with all that build up, you now have TONS of it across your entire mix. So, you try and cut the mud with an eq. Easy fix right?

Nope. Therein lies the problem, because now you are eq'ing the instrument and the room on that track, when you really only wish you could eq out the room's mode's and the sound of it's muddiness. You can cut some of the room's build up out with eq, but you are also taking a swipe at the instrument / source itself, which may or may not really need it.

And you end up with a thin sounding instrument or voice.

The other reason is that when you go to mix, now you are hearing all of those tracks, with all of their build up, being pumped into a room with yet more of this crappy build up. This makes it EXTREMELY difficult to know what the hell you are hearing, and you will cut too much, or, if you are sitting in a bad place, and this stuff is in a "dip" or null, you may actually add more of these frequencies, and never realize what you have just done.

Until you play it somewhere outside of your room.

It can be never ending, as you go through the trial and error process. Even with digital tools to learn about what is happening in your room.

Particularly in small rooms in homes, but also in large facilities. I know several studios in my area that have changed their acoustics 4-7 times or something in the search for the perfect room tone and balance.

What I am getting at, is the flutter echo of HF's and upper mids is often the first thing you notice going away (and easiest thing to hear), and also the easiest to problem to fix IMO. Getting rid of this helps tremendously, it is probably the most offensive sounding problem, but it won't be the last thing you do if you really want it to be a good recording or mixing environment.

FWIW, I have no idea how low SONEX performs to, but I can tell you that the 4" stuff does help some with the 200hz area, especially if you have a lot of it. Trade off is, it can sound dead and too tight for some things, forcing you to rely on more digital reverb. Big rock drums in a super dead room? Maybe the Queens of the Stone Age type tone, but certainly not the big Bonham type tones that some want. And yeah, I get asked all the time if I can get that tone, even by guys who were born 15 years after Bonham died.

If you are going to use foam, at least try and find some old recycled SONEX rather than auralex. It really does make a huge difference. These guys are all right when saying the auralex will only reach down into the mids / upper mids, and will not fix any low mid or bass issues, unless you have it stacked up in 12" depths or something.

If you spend the money on the auralex, I think you will be wishing you went with something better, but that's my opinion.

Anyways nuff' outta me, I ain't no expert, but have been down this crappy road, and it is a challenge for sure. Just trying to help you avoid some of the stupidity I fell into, and am still falling into.

Good luck,
john

[Puffer Fish]

Originally Posted by JLiRD808

^^^ Not as simple as u think. Measuring is usually only good for freq ~300hz or below. The reason is that even the slightest adjustment of ur omni condenser will cause freqs above that point to jump around like crazy.

Waterfall plots are also only for the low end....and it sounds like he doesnt have low end issues (he probably does, but doesn't care since its just for playing/teaching)

Okay, so if an analyzer is not a solution, in your opinion, then seriously, what do you suggest? What other tools do we have in the audio world for making informed, objective choices when it comes to observing a full spectrum of audio? If there is another objective tool for this task, I would certainly like to read about it.

The wandering measurement you describe is exactly why a person armed with an analyzer takes a lot of readings from various places around a room and balances out the measurements when deciding what action to take for correction--be it a graphic eq for live work or room treatment in a studio. Experience with an analyzer (hopefully) permits an audio engineer to recognize the inconsistencies and only make adjustments based upon readings from an analyzer that make sense according to the plots that average out across the room.

Is it perfect? No. But it is a better tool than simply guessing as to what is going on in a room. And again, it it the best tool I know of. If you have a better solution, please do share what that is, because after almost 30 years of working with audio professionally, I am not sure what would be a better choice than using an analyzer to get some solid evidence as to what is happening in a room.

I do not mean to flame out on your comment, but it is perplexing to me that you would shoot down the only evidence based audio analysis tools we have in our arsenal. And I sincerely ask that you share what better solution there is. Seriously.