Stellar CM6, KEL HM-7u, Oktava MK-319 mod or SE mics?

[LTJazz]

It seems like you're trying to get the sound of a U87 in a $400 mic. That's not going to happen...I think you need to be a little bit more realistic.

That being said, I love my CM6 for the price I paid. Is it a Neumann? No. But it's a damned good mic. You may be able to find a used one on the classifieds.

I'm a fan of the 4040, but it's pretty flat. I've found the CM6 to be very true, but it has a special shimmer or character to it I really like. I don't know if it's the tube or what, but I really enjoy it.

The Kel HM7U is a nice mic, but it's somewhat similar to the CM6 in a way...but no tube. It's also about the same price. If choosing between those two, I'd take the CM6 every time.

I can't speak for the 319 modded by JJ audio.

My experience with the SE mics are they are nice, but I think you're getting more bang for your buck with the Stellar mics. That being said, I don't have experience with the Gemini...but I'm pretty sure it's a dual tube microphone? It's a very big mic, from what I understand.

I'd honestly recommend the CM6 over the rest of those mics. In my experience, it accurately captures the source but imparts a velvety smooth character...just a little bit. And if you want you can upgrade the tube (though it's already pretty good.) Where I've found sibilance in some mics, the CM6 doesn't have that issue.

[popmann]

How many cheap LDCs are you going to try before you realize in that price range you're better off with a good dynamic?

I have two LDCs left here...both vintage...don't make'em like they used to. Old Gefell UM70 and 414eb. I use the Gefell for me...other singers get the 414 and sm7 put up--one or the other yields a sound that is solid for everyone. The Gefell is so moisture sensitive, after Korby cleaned it up for me, I "retired it" to be just my personal mic.

Anyway...these days, I just don't use LDCs much at all. Acoustic guitar and piano=SDC...amps=dynamic and ribbon...voices mostly the sm7 (or the 414 for the occasional voice that the sm7 doesn't flatter).

Im likely not the first to tell you...hell...probably already did in the Studio Forums days...but, your list just horrified me.

[LTJazz]

I have to disagree with you here. The SM7 is a great mic, but it's not for every voice. I've found, in particular, it doesn't work well on my voice. I think it's a great mic for stronger or more aggressive voices....strong female and rock vocals...but a dynamic in all recording situations? come on now..

[dickiefunk]

Thanks for the replies.

I have an SM7b and didn't like it on the vocalist I'm recording. I'm using my mics through either a Focusrite Liquid Channel or UA Solo 610 and have a treated vocal booth.

[uncle duncan]

Just recently Kidvybes posted a shootout between a HM2d and a JZ-11 on a female vocal that leaned a bit towards piercing. The JZ-11 won. It wasn't as dense sounding as the HM2d, (JZ-11 has a big bump at 90, little bump at 2k, little dip at 4.5k) but it did tame the lady's voice in a pleasant way.

From your description, it sounds like you need a Neumann M149, but at $3500 used, that might be a little out of your price range. Another one to check out would be the RE20. It has an interesting looking frequency response graph, totally different than an SM7b. Plus, it's a dynamic, which means it won't overload when your lady singer is at full volume. (Kidvybes didn't choose his CM6 in that shootout, possibly because of the volume overload issue.)

If you're still into rolling the dice with bargain mics, the Recording Tools MC-900 (German company) is supposed to be similar to a Kel Song Sparrow. It's a little "wispy" sounding, sort of a poor man's C12 with a reserved top end. It's a dual FET transformerless mic, kinda boring sounding. Running it through a preamp with transformers really helps to give it some life.

Any idea what vocal mic was used on the vocal clip for Amazing Grace? Her voice almost sounds like it could use a touch more midrange, or perhaps there's too much proximity affect in that clip? While the MK319 does favor the midrange, my modded 319 has yet to win a vocal shootout. It's just too freakin' honky and wishy washy sounding for my taste, although some people like it on vocals. It is useful on bright guitars that need less highs, less lows, and more midrange, so if you work with acoustic music, you could probably find a use for it regardless of whether or not it flatters this particular singer.

[mikeyman]

GET A B-STOCK t3 AT PMI AUDIO FOR 250$

[dickiefunk]

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. I actually used the Studio Projects B1 on Amazing Grace through an M-Audio Tampa preamp! I have to admit the Studio Projects B1 was one of my favorite mics on her voice but the topend could get very harsh when the singer belted some high notes (even when she backed off mic etc). I did like the clarity, presence and general tone of the B1 though.

I haven't heard of the JZ 11 mic. Could you post a link to this shootout?

I would probably prefer to steer clear of dynamic mics as this vocalist has a large dynamic range and on some tracks we're working on at the moment she goes from a whisper to full on belting!

[kidvybes]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

Just recently Kidvybes posted a shootout between a HM2d and a JZ-11 on a female vocal that leaned a bit towards piercing. The JZ-11 won. It wasn't as dense sounding as the HM2d, (JZ-11 has a big bump at 90, little bump at 2k, little dip at 4.5k) but it did tame the lady's voice in a pleasant way.

...not sure I'd refer to those impromptu clips as a "shootout", but I was just trying to find a mic that could handle the dynamic range of that particular vocalist, and those soundclips were just a couple of many in which she sang briefly into a broad selection of microphone options...

Originally Posted by dickiefunk

I haven't heard of the JZ 11 mic. Could you post a link to this shootout?

Mojave, Clarion, Stellar? Mid level mics...

...I was recently introduced to this particular female vocalist, and was impressed enough with her vocal skills that I agreed to collaborate on her upcoming project...but it soon became clear that the combination of her dynamic range and tonality might pose a bit of a challenge if I were to capture her as she sounds "live" in the room...she's an accomplished touring/recording vocalist with numerous backing vocal credits (with major artists in her genre) as well as two solo albums...what I noticed when reviewing her previous recordings was that there is a quality in her voice that, IMHO, wasn't being captured beneficially in those tracks...

...I requested that she audition a broad selection of mics, in hopes of finding one that best represented her range...we tried most of my tube and solid-state mics, and it quickly became clear that the "darker" options did the better job of capturing her range while diminishing overload and distortion, but none seemed ideal...I then compared the KEL HM-2D and the Shure SM7...both were a bit more workable, and it was suggested by one of my associates to track simultaneously with both and blend, since the HM-2D excelled on the softer, airier passages, while the SM7 did a better job of handing her power notes...

...I had read a brief review of the JZ Vintage 11 by another dynamically rangy female vocalist who had been successfully using the Lawson LP47, but found the JZ V11 to work particularly well on her voice...her exact comment was, "This microphone blew me away with how warm it sounds and it's instinctive ability to make the vocals sound polished; it almost sounds like there's a limiter on."

...I was offered the opportunity to demo the V11, so I decided to compare it with the HM-2D, and SM7 as well...while there was a bit less "air" on the V11 than the HM-2D, it became clear that it easily handled the most dynamically challenging portions of her vocals, even better than the SM7...I plan on doing further testing, but I must say I'm impressed with the JZ V11 on this particular voice...this is a "character" LDC mic, which has a very distinct voicing that borders on dynamic-like (or even ribbon-like) qualities...I'm looking forward to hear more of what it may bring to this project...

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

If you're still into rolling the dice with bargain mics, the Recording Tools MC-900 (German company) is supposed to be similar to a Kel Song Sparrow. It's a little "wispy" sounding, sort of a poor man's C12 with a reserved top end. It's a dual FET transformerless mic, kinda boring sounding. Running it through a preamp with transformers really helps to give it some life.

...this was one of the potential contenders, recently acquired along with a BeesNeez Arabella GT (described by Ben Sneesby as being based on the classic U47 and M49) as possible options for this project...a tube swap on the Arabella brought it closer to the mark, but the MC-900's voicing was too delicate and couldn't handle her power...I would though seriously consider the MC-900 for BG vocal duties, as I imagine stacked vocals would benefit from it's delicate top-end...

[Phil_The_Rodent]

If you are exploring Kel mics, you really should have a look at the Song Sparrow which has a C-12 type capsule rather than a K-47.

[kidvybes]

Originally Posted by Phil_The_Rodent

If you are exploring Kel mics, you really should have a look at the Song Sparrow which has a C-12 type capsule rather than a K-47.

...see "Recording Tools MC-900"...look familiar?

Recording Tools

[Phil_The_Rodent]

Originally Posted by kidvybes

...see "Recording Tools MC-900"...look familiar?

Recording Tools

Does, sir.

[dickiefunk]

Thanks for the replies. I've been having a quick listen to the clips on the KEL website and to the JZ11 shootout.

From the clips I've heard on the KEL website I like the sound of the HM-7U and HM-3C the most. The HM-3C sounded fairly close to the HM-2D but had a slightly more pronounced top end.

The HM-7U sounded brighter with more presence but I'm not sure how this mic would handle a vocalist belting high notes?

I had a listen to the shootout between the HM-2D and JZ11 but noticed there was quite a lot of noise on these clips? I didn't particularly like the sound of either of these clips? There appeared to be something funny going on with the top end and sounds like poor mp3 compression?

[kidvybes]

Originally Posted by Phil_The_Rodent

Does, sir.

Originally Posted by dickiefunk

The HM-7U sounded brighter with more presence but I'm not sure how this mic would handle a vocalist belting high notes?

...I can only speak from experience with a female vocalist like I'm working with presently, and I would concur with LTJazz's comments in reference to comparisons between the CM-6 and HM-7U...I sold my HM-7U after buying the CM-6...I can't imagine the HM-7U handling this degree of dynamic range more efficiently...of course, YMMV...

Originally Posted by dickiefunk

There appeared to be something funny going on with the top end and sounds like poor mp3 compression?

...that was a quick, impromptu comparison, certainly not a proper "shootout" by any stretch of imagination...and those are converted MP3 files, and the quality is what it is...but the difference in how the overall dynamic range is handled by both mics is still quite evident...

...if you found the sE Gemini to work well on your client, I suggest you bite the bullet and buy one (pre-owned if necessary)...your quest for a mic suitable for this vocalist has been going on for some stretch of time...IMHO, the Gemini is an odd mic (due to it's unique dual-tube design and voicing), and like the JZ V11, really doesn't sound like any other (less) costly option...

[MadGuitrst]

Originally Posted by dickiefunk

I'm looking for a mic that has great presence without sounding harsh or sibilant. I would also like the mic to have a nice full rich sound without sounding muddy in a mix.

What would you recommend?

Well, from the description of your posts, it seems like you want a mic with good mid presence without harshness. Sounds like you want a 251 or M49.

Two LDC mics come to mind:
Beesneez James (my favorite of my mics on my voice - FWIW, if I could buy any mics it would be a 251 and a M49).
BLUE Baby Bottle

JJ Audio could whip you up a nicely 251-ish mic without totally busting the bank.

The Oktava does not have issue with sibilance at all, and one reason I really like it; however, it could be too dark for you. If you're going to get it modded, you might want to try it with thee resonator discs on first (taking them off is a couple minute job - your kid sister could do it).

I like the baby Bottle on guitars, electric and acoustic, and don't use it as a vocal mic, but you certainly can.

I also like the recommendation of the RE20 (and I know Popmann loves the SM7....as do many other folks).

[jrides]

If you go Modded Oktava, go with Joly at Oktaamod.
Service and quality is stellar. And....he knows Oktava. Drop him a line and he may be able to help point you to he best option.

I haven't had the best luck communicating with JJ Audio.

[jrides]

Originally Posted by LTJazz

Joly lies, over charges, and is a prick.

All he's going to do is change a few caps, use a Ningbo capsule on your mic, and cut away a layer of mesh in the headbasket with a jewelers file.

Just like how he had that "huge proprietary deal with iSK mics to co-brand with them." That didn't work out because they couldn't come to "agreeable terms."

Avoid Joly unless you want to be ripped off. His services might have been decent years ago when we didn't have the quality and numerous options of mics we have today.

Actually I wasn't speaking on proprietary tech. Simply on service alone. Standing behind a product that is. You get what you pay for. If a problem should develop with a mic modded at budget cheapo marrt good luck. (referring to some of the many available options not specically JJ)

For a while I took my first Lexus to the Toyota dealer. (same parts) They proceeded to almost f*ck up my engine after an oil change and..... back to the Lexus dealer we went lol. Did I pay more money for simple sh*t? Yep. Was I ever worried about my car again? Nope.
Pick Your battles.

[LTJazz]

Comparing a microphone to a car is a flawed argument.

There are modders that do better and more affordable work than Joly. The only reason he's so well known here is because he promoted his own product on the forums for years.

Anyway, I wouldn't even go the modded route. Microphones have gotten to the point where a lot of stuff coming from the factory is very good. We're not stuck with MXL mics with cheap capsules and components. We've got mics made with WIMA caps and full sized capsules that are actually produced well.

[mikeyman]

well i heard alot about the SP B-1 but i think the T3 is in another level.Yoiu should ask Alan @ SP

[Karloff70]

Go on ebay and find a 90's Groove Tubes MD1. NOT the new MD1b, but the old one. Either MD1 or better still MD1a (less noise). Then marvel at the vibe .....no feckin kidding, mate!! Your gospel singer will be soaring in the most pukka manner......

[uncle duncan]

Originally Posted by jrides

...

I haven't had the best luck communicating with JJ Audio.

Langston was having trouble with his email account recently. Try PM'ing him here on GS.

[miscend]

You have tried a boat load of mics. I dont think you will ever find that perfect mic that suits every voice and all occasions. Having a good portfolio of varied mics is a good option.

I also see you haven't got any Ribbon mics on that list. I know they're way above your budget but why don't you see what she sounds like on a decent ribbon mic?

Another alternative option you can try is the Shure KSM32 which is a great all round mic for under £400. It's a favourite of Engineer Ronan Chris Murphy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w6y8gNWEhY

[jrides]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

Langston was having trouble with his email account recently. Try PM'ing him here on GS.

No need. I got the work done elsewhere for o e project. I have found a local tech who I think can handle the latest one. FWIW I did not email Langston. It wasn't mic mod related.

[dickiefunk]

Thanks for the info and replies guys.

That was high praise for the KSM32 from Ronan Chris Murphy. I'm very interested to find out more about this mic now along with the KSM42 and 44!

What are peoples thoughts on the Shure KSM series? Any ideas how these may compare to any of my other mics?

The Studio Projects T3 is another interesting recommendation. I had some success with the B1.

The Blue Baby Bottle also looks quite interesting but am slightly put off after using the Bluebird. I found the Bluebird to be possibly the harshest and most thin sounding mic on this singers voice. I noticed that the Bluebird has got a peak around 5K which could possibly be causing the problems I've been getting!??

From looking at various mic frequency graphs I think I could be looking for a mic that is pretty flat to about 5-6K and then have a gently slope up to 10K. Or at least have a dip around the 5k area?

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by dickiefunk

What are peoples thoughts on the Shure KSM series? Any ideas how these may compare to any of my other mics?

Only know the KSM44 a bit and found it pretty damned fast for an LDC, hence rather cool for acoustic instrument micing. Neutral flavour. For vocals this neutral flavour isn't much to my liking. Gets a bit harsh/cold emotionally and can also be essy on the wrong person. But then so can most every Neumann.....just this thing to me isn't what I'd recommend as a vocal mic.

Maybe (likely) I just haven't heard the right singer for it. But I suspect its 'right singer pocket' doesn't hold loads of people.....unlike the MD1 I recommended. I challenge you to find a singer that doesn't sound feckin great using one of those.....

[illacov]

Have you taken this singer to a studio aside from your own?

Could it be environmental?

Could it be an application issue?

You have gone thru a ton of microphones considering, more than some small to midsized studios have for their entire locker.

I'd say you throw a left curveball and take her to a studio and demo your mics on her in a totally different environment, but let the house engineer set it up with his choice of chain. If she sounds great on their chain in their room through their monitoring. Then you know how she can sound.

Take the files back to your environment. If she sounds harsh, then you know its your monitoring not your mics.

If she sounds fine on your monitors then its either the chain you have, the environment or your technique on her.

If you mimic the placement etc that they used where she sounded good and the results ain't no good in your studio then its the chain or the environment.

This is what I'd suggest before you buy any more mics.

Try them in a best case scenario and see if they are still having the same issues. Sounds like your are more so producing her than just meat and taters engineering her. So hire a studio (rat) for a few hours and see if he can surpass what you are getting at your spot. Not about ego, its about getting fresh perspective.

And if a guy came to my spot and said make this lady sound good with a Studio Projects B1 then the challenge is on! That's showbiddness!

Peace
Illumination

[Karloff70]

^^^^ good plan me thinks.

[Gretsch 6120]

Originally Posted by dickiefunk

Thanks for the info and replies guys.

That was high praise for the KSM32 from Ronan Chris Murphy. I'm very interested to find out more about this mic now along with the KSM42 and 44!

What are peoples thoughts on the Shure KSM series? Any ideas how these may compare to any of my other mics?

The Studio Projects T3 is another interesting recommendation. I had some success with the B1.

The Blue Baby Bottle also looks quite interesting but am slightly put off after using the Bluebird. I found the Bluebird to be possibly the harshest and most thin sounding mic on this singers voice. I noticed that the Bluebird has got a peak around 5K which could possibly be causing the problems I've been getting!??

From looking at various mic frequency graphs I think I could be looking for a mic that is pretty flat to about 5-6K and then have a gently slope up to 10K. Or at least have a dip around the 5k area?

I’d echo Mr. Illumination’s advice above, if that’s doable. Yet, to answer your questions directly about the KSM series, the Baby Bottle, and the T-3, it’s like this (keep in mind I currently don’t own any of them but have heard and researched all of them extensively for many years now):

The KSM models are great utility mics in general, and the 44 in particular is notrioius for being a flat sounding mic (very neutral). Over at the old and now defunked Studioforums.com site Ronan Christ Murphy reviewed the KSM 32 extensively, and even provided sound clips. The mic sounded great (world class)…not like a Neumann U87 mind you…but like a world class Shure microphone…and although it’s a relatively versatile mic, I think it’s tuned more for vocals

The T-3 sounds nothing like the B1, and while it’s definitely on the bright side, it’s nowhere near as bright as the B1, which I too like btw. Of course, it’s a tube mic. Dot (Dan Richards, I believe is his real name), another well known engineer from North Carolina, also wrote extensively about that mic on the old studioforums.com site. At the time, circa 06, he stated that it kicked anything in its price range’s butt, hands down. All the sound clips I’ve ever heard of it were impressive, and as you know SP makes really good products at a great price point.

The Baby Bottle is a great mic too and relatively neutral. I don’t own, but I do own and use its cousin, Violet’s Black Doly. Supposedly, these two mics are almost identical inside, but I can’t verify that for sure. All I can tell you is “wow,” in terms of the sound the Black Doly delivers. Mad Guitarist, one of the resident dudes here and on other sites I frequent and a bit of a mic aficionado IMO, often sings its praises or at least has in the past.

All three of those mics are solid, but whether they’ll work great on a particular vocalist, as you know, is really a roll of the dice until you actually get to test them. My philosophy is there’s always a better mic, better pre, better compressor, etc., but when you start going down that trail it becomes a game of diminishing returns. It takes time and money to chase gear. Personally, I like to find stuff that works and that is good and just roll with it. That said, I have no problem doing long term research in the interim, but I wouldn’t hold up a project over it. I can make any decent mic work for a given situation.

Anyway, good luck with your search, and keep track’n.

Chris

[dickiefunk]

Thanks for the replies.

I completely understand you suggestion to try her in different studios with different mics.

Thing is the main studios near me use similar gear and I've recorded her in one of them before.
We all have the Focusrite Liquid Channel (which is pretty new for me and haven't fully explored it yet) and Focusrite ISA pres.
I don't think there is anything wrong with any of these pres as one of the studios used these for major UK chart artists and has had numerous chart hits including a No1 for quite a few weeks. The other studio received national praise for its production on a jazz album for an unsigned vocalist!

Both these studios now use the SE Gemini mkII or mkIII as their main goto vocal mic. They use Apogee Symphony converters whereas I use the converters built into the Liquid Channel or the ISA A/D card (which are regarded as a step up from your decent mid priced interface converters).

Both studios have recently bought the Neve Portico II channel strip as their vocal pre so that is different now and the vocal booth's are different though I wouldn't say any of them or amazing sounding.
Mine is the smallest and deadest sounding of the bunch but they all sound ok but not OMG amazing. I'm not convinced the pre would make a dramatic difference to the sound especially as they don't use any of the eq, compression and other processing that the Portico has. They use just the straight pre and to be honest, if I'm not getting a great vocal sound I don't think the Liquid Channel, or my UA Solo 610 and ISA pre are the reason.

I noticed that when we recorded her at one of the other studios her vocal sounded even harsher!? We tried the AKG Solidtube, Shure SM7b and AKG C-414B-ULS and still suffered the same problems.

We're in the middle of recording a big band track and tried the Gemini II, Neumann TLM102, Shure SM7-b, SE 2200T, Audio Technica 4040 and KEL HM2-d. The TLM 102 and Gemini II were by far the best match for her voice and the track. It was quite hard to chooes between them and we ended up going for the TLM102 as it sounded a fraction smoother overall. We were actually pretty pleased with how it sounded on her voice for this style. My only complaint really was it sounded a little sibilant and perhaps sterile? I felt if this mic had less of a frequency bump between 8-15k and maybe a small notch around 5k it would be a great match?
The 4040 sounded way too thin and bright and the 2200T was similar but not so much. The HM2-d was very dark and needed quite a bit of eq to cut through the mix and the SM7-b just sounded quite honky.

I've been able to get some pretty good jazz recordings of her voice using either the TLM102, Gemini II, Studio Projects B1 and AKG Solidtube (though still not perfect) but it's when she really starts belting massive high notes that I start to run into problems.
Her voice naturally can get a fraction harsh so what's been happening so far is the mics exaggerate this and make it sound like it could strip paint off a wall!
I also find that quite a few mics can sound inconsistent at different volumes. The AT4040 has been the best mic and sounding consistent with the large dynamic changes but can sound quit sibilant and a little harsh (though less harsh than any other mic I've tried at this volume). I haven't tried my HM2-D or the Gemini II with her singing full pelt yet but I have a feeling that the HM2-D will sound too dull and the Gemini sibilant and perhaps peaky!?

I don't think I'm in that place where I think the sound is terrible any more and to be honest in most cases quit useable. I'm just not totally satisfied with it yet and can hear where it's not sounding as I would like and would like to get her tone as good as I can in my studio.

[nambams]

I've been able to get some pretty good jazz recordings of her voice using either the TLM102, Gemini II, Studio Projects B1 and AKG Solidtube (though still not perfect) but it's when she really starts belting massive high notes that I start to run into problems.
Her voice naturally can get a fraction harsh so what's been happening so far is the mics exaggerate this and make it sound like it could strip paint off a wall!
I also find that quite a few mics can sound inconsistent at different volumes. The AT4040 has been the best mic and sounding consistent with the large dynamic changes but can sound quit sibilant and a little harsh (though less harsh than any other mic I've tried at this volume).

How close are you micing her? It would be very challenging to record this scenario with just one mic in one spot with all the same settings. In other words, try having her work on her mic technique. Also consider a two mic setup - one for the close notes and another for the loud, belty stuff. Also, varying your chain or settings for different passages of the song will help. Perhaps some tube compression?