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Old 9th June 2012   #1
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where to get started?

First-time poster here.
I'm a professional musician (principal viola, Victoria Symphony, Canada) and a frustrated composer.
I've taken my creative frustrations out on cheap-ass home rock and pop recordings, occasionally avant-garde, but never given much thought to actual recording quality.
Now I'm ready to invest in some decent gear - digital recorder, mics, preamps, basically.
What I want is a setup which can sound like a good modern EMI recording (Capuchon brothers playing Brahms piano quartets, for instance; I have just recorded it, but there is audible hiss from the engineers otherwise excellent ribbon mics).
So, finally a few direct questions: would a marantz PMD671 with a couple of rented Neumann U87s (liked them in the past) have audible internally-generated noise? Would I need great preamps as well? Can you recommend some preamps (mostly for classical strings and piano)? Is the Marantz up for the job if better preamps are upstream? I can't afford a Sound Devices or nagra right now...
Finally, I don't like most classical recordings (or the culture in general): no imagination, cold and calculated and basically a bit fascist (hope that isn't too political!). What I wnat to try is more pop-music; close mic all performers, and also use an X-Y or figger 8 setup further back to get some nice ambience. Than have a puff in the mixing room and find when the recording needs the grit of the close-ups or the reverb of the ambients.
Anyone with me? Anyone have direct-experience that makes this approach problematic?
Thanks so much for any responses!
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Old 10th June 2012   #2
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Great classical recordings come from great recording spaces. These spaces often cost thousand's if not hundreds of thousands to build. Then there is the instrument and the way it interacts with the space that makes classical recordings so great. Finding the blend between the room and instrument is critical.

When you start to close multiple mic instrument you will lose the room ambience and may have phase issues if everything is tracked live.

If you really want to record classical like a pop production, this is going to take a experienced engineer. I highly recommend going to a professional studio and gain some experience their. The outcome will be far far better.

But if you really want to proceed you have two set ups to consider.

#1 Marantz pmd661 and 2 matched SDC

This set up will be traditional and describes the sound you dislike. But to be honest with you in and great room this set up would be good.

#2 Buy a macbook and apogee duet along with a SDC and LDC.
As for a DAW their are lots of great choices Pro tools and Logic are good choices.

As for a mic the U87 is really overkill here for the price at 6k for a pair. There are much better deals out their.
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Old 10th June 2012   #3
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Apocalyptica, Rapunzel, Celloforte kinda stuff? Combustion - Cellofourte - YouTube

I've recorded many symphonic ensembles, from Heinz Hall, the Benedum Center, Heinz Chapel, Duqesne School of Music, the Recital Hall at C-MU and other venues, in door and out. When the Pittsburgh Symphony records in house they use an array of DPA mics. The Ballet and Opera orchestras are captured using a wide variety of mics, mostly AKG 460 or 480 SDs on the strings with Schopes over head.

You present two problems. First, to capture those more traditional sounds in a natural way; second to make a more modern, edgy recording for more modern, pushy music.

The first problem is solved, in my opinion, by keeping it simple and decent quality. Good mics on the front end, coupled with a good preamplifier would be my choice. Your choice of room could be a problem unless, as in Pittsburgh's cultural district, your connections would allow you to have access to certain rooms when they are not booked for events. Anyway, a pair of quality SDs (Schopes, AKG, DPA, etc) going into a quality quiet preamp (John Hardy, Cranesong, Gordon, Millenia, etc ) are reasonable choices.

For a more modern sounding ensemble? I had the good fortune to assist on a Celloforte session. They were brought in as session players on a rock record, and the engineer wanted my input and some of my mics. Celloforte showed up with contact mics on their instruments and guitar effects pedals. The studio put up four Neumann 103s a few feet in front of the players, and four SDs a few feet further back in the room. Some of therse mics went into old Neve modules, some went straight into the studio console. I walked the room while they played, listened, and dropped in an additional pair of C-28s (an older AKG tube SD). I don't know what they chose for the recording, but I know which tracks sounded 'best' in a classical sense.

In terms of what recording medium you pick, it really doesn't matter as long as there is some quality involved in the conversions. There are practical reasons to use a computer, because editing is a lot easier, and from within the computer you can upload to sites or burn CDs.

The reasons to use a laptop (if the production does not get too involved) are compelling, too. Portability rocks.

If it was -me-, I would pick something like the RME Babyface as an interface for a computer. (The babyface in particular is a USB interface that handles 2 channels of AES/EBU input and four out at up to 192K, uses ADAT to expand that an additional 8 channels, comes with TotalMix, TotalMix Effects, Digicheck, and DigiCheck Record.) There are other good interfaces, I happen to be partial to RME because they are like hammers or screwdrivers... they just work. No tears. But there are other choices. A little more money that the Marantz, but the value is higher and you may never need to replace it. But there is no reason why you could not use the Marantz. (By the same token, there is no reason why you could not use a student-level viola on stage with the Victoria...and the results would be similar.)

I would buy the computer based upon the software that I liked. I use Sequoia with is the Big Brother to Samplitude and is a popular classical editing platform (4 point editing is one reason) as well as a popular mastering platform. There are others, like Pyramix, Sonoma, etc. Or you could just go with one of the popular products like Pro Tools or Cubase, etc. THERE IS NO ADVANTAGE TO USING A MAC OR A PC. No one will ever know by the sound of the audio. You will do your work in the software, pick the software that you like and the computer that runs it best.

It would be smart to rent mics unless you know that you will be always recording the same things in the same way. But it never hurts to own a nice pair of SDs, like Schopes, Neumann KM84i, DPA, etc. Top quality LDs are pricey, and today you might want an M-49, tomorrow an Elam 251....

Know that for close miced pop music you may be able to buy the cheapest mics you can find and get away with it. To capture the detail of a viola in a symphony hall? Maybe, maybe not. A lot of people make a lot of claims about this and that copy or modification being 'as good as...'. Clearly, the item to which they compare themselves must be the right tool to buy. I can only tell you that I have never seen a Chinese copy come onto any professional live symphonic recording situation in which I have been involved; and I have never had any noted professional recordist tell me that they preferred any Chinese copy over any of the typically chosen Western selections for classical recording.
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Old 12th June 2012   #4
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Hey, thanks for the thorough responses. I've been thinking along the same lines - why not just get a good preamp, A/D, D/A unit and use a laptop? And the availability of a world-class recording hall is the perennial problem, isn't it? The room we have available sounds good, although it's 'resonant frequency' seems to be a bit problematic (a mix of a wolf tone on the low 'f' in the cello and the room - strangest acoustic phenomenon - had to take a lot of bass off the EQ!).
I'll be renting some good Neumann's or AKG's for the next, and I'm sure I'll be posting new questions.
Thanks so much; appreciated!
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Old 14th June 2012   #5
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low end mixer before low end recorder a good or bad idea?

So I'm still vacillating on which low-end recorder to purchase (Marantz PDM 671, Tascam HD P2 or DR-680). I imagine they would all sound similar with the same mics plugged straight in.
So another question: Would it be better or worse to plug a decent mic into a low end mixer (Peavey Unity Series 300) before going into one of the units above? I imagine the pres on this mixer and the recorders would be about the same quality (?), so would two low end preamps be a positive thing (less level on each) or a bad thing (bad qualities doubled)?
Thanks!
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Old 14th June 2012   #6
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Originally Posted by Dr. Fuse View Post
Hey, thanks for the thorough responses. I've been thinking along the same lines - why not just get a good preamp, A/D, D/A unit and use a laptop? And the availability of a world-class recording hall is the perennial problem, isn't it? The room we have available sounds good, although it's 'resonant frequency' seems to be a bit problematic (a mix of a wolf tone on the low 'f' in the cello and the room - strangest acoustic phenomenon - had to take a lot of bass off the EQ!).
I'll be renting some good Neumann's or AKG's for the next, and I'm sure I'll be posting new questions.
Thanks so much; appreciated!
peaks and nulls. Some good quality bass traps would help with that; portable too: just lean them up against the corners (floor-to-wall, wall-to-wall) and take them down when you're done.

But yeah, finding a good room is going to be your biggest challenge; and time experimenting with mic placement will be critical.

Take some pics of the room, post them up on the Acoustics forum and you'll get some help.
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Old 15th June 2012   #7
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First of all, Recordings are going to sound as great as you want them to be. Great recordings don't happen only with good gear, but with good engineers and producers.

Having said that, you need to be aware that audio works in chains. This means that what goes through your mic, will go through your cable, preamp, interface, converters and finally to your DAW. So it's NOT a good idea to spend $5000 on a mic and then $200 on an interface, because it doesn't matter how great your mic is, if you go into a crappy interface, your ''sound quality'' will only be as good as your least good component in your chain. But as I said before, most of the results of your recording, is in YOUR hands rather than the equipment.

It would also be a good idea if you look how to set your studio/room up in order to get the best sound out of it. There are great threads in this forum about how to set your studio.

The rest is all about spending time in your studio making music. You'll become better every time!
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Old 16th June 2012   #8
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Hi, Dr. Fuse, Bill bought up some great points to consider. I am going to cut to the chase and give you some straight talk.

Your goal is to experiment and possibly record a album right?

Then do not get a field recorder(marantz). These are for live field recording where a power source is not available. Unless you want to record live concerts, then go with a proper computer and a interface. This opens up your possibilities to manipulate the sound ten fold. Even classical can benefit tremendously from post production eq/comp and effects.

Most interfaces have o.k. preamps but the two interfaces we suggested have excellent preamps(apogee duet/Rme babyface or Metric halo uln-2), anything below their price range is subpar. Sound devices make a excellent interface called the usb pre 2. You wont need external pre's for those interfaces unless you want to spend $2K to upgrade the pre's to upgrade their sound.
As for a computer and DAW, a mac and pro tools are a popular choice that are solid. Pc's are cool to. As for mic's get a pair of SDC or rent them. Two cheap SDC that I like for classical are the Shure Ksm137 and the Neumann Km184($1000 pair used). I also just saw a pair of akg 460's go for $500 used on evilbay last week!

And do not use that peavey mixer, and especially do not plug two low quality preamps into each other. Results will be crappy.

If you are still unsure just get a cheap $200 stereo field recorder (zoom/fostex) with xlr/trs ins. This will still sound very close the marantz and is a cheap way to find out what you really might need.
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