Treat my little control room...

[not like this]

I just moved into a new space. It is two rooms and I am trying to get my control room to sound decent before working on the live room.

The control room is a standard rectangle 12'x14' with about 8.5' ceilings. There is a 6" support beam that runs across the ceiling about 3.5' off the left wall. I have a GIK 244 Acoustic Panel in each of the four corners right now. The floors are pergo, the walls/ceilings are sheetrock. I have a large rug (approx 4x6') under my listening position.

I just ran Ethan's fantastic Test CD with my little Radio Shack SPL Meter. I set the Volume so the meter read about 70, and these were my results:


I am looking to use this room for mixing, so I need to flatten this curve out considerably.

I am also getting some flutter echoes from the floor. Of course I haven't treated any of the first reflection points yet, so this wasn't a surprise to me.

I am wondering if anyone has an advice about what would be the next logical choice for room treatment. Will treating the first reflection points be enough or should I purchase more broadband absorption?

Extra Credit: Any hints as I move onto treating the live room? It is 12X20' and is made of the same materials as the CR, minus the support beam on the ceiling. I already have 4 GIK 244 panels that I am planning on using in the corners of the live room. I want the live room to be dead enough to use for vocals... is that hoping for too much?

[warhead]

I bet you'll get more good info by posting a pic of your room.

War

[Ethan Winer]

Dave,

> standard rectangle 12'x14' with about 8.5' ceilings ... I have a GIK 244 Acoustic Panel in each of the four corners right now <

A room that size needs more like eight traps, and even twice that will not be too much. The more bass traps you have, the flatter and tighter the low end will be. It really is that simple.

You still have Glenn's phone number, yes?

--Ethan

[Glenn Kuras]

Hey,

As Ethan pointed out treating the room with more traps will do wonders also. Most rooms I have found need about 8 (Echo of Ethan).. One thing I would like for you to try is put all 4 traps in the front corners. If the graph looks better then I might recommend just getting 2 more traps for the back corners. You may find that 6 could workout for you. Take a look at this case study with our product. The guy had 4 and was not happy. He then got 8 and was smiling from ear to ear.
For the first reflections you want to focus on the side, back and ceiling. Trust me this will make a big difference for you.
If you would like send me a few pictures and drawings of your live room and we can take a look at it to see what might work best for you.


Glenn

[Capstan Cappy]

seems he needs to reflect more then trap at some frequencies
look around in your controle room for medium sized stuf that can eat that 0-300hz region, if it's your console too bad throw it out, nah j/k
be aware it can even be a harmlees bookcase that's screwing up your responce

[not like this]

Thanks everyone... Like I said, I have 4 other panels in the live room right now. Later tonight I am going to try putting them all in there and run the test CD again. I will snap some photos of each room and post them as well.

[not like this]

Here are the pics. The room is so small it's hard to get a shot far enough back to get everything in... excuse the mess, I'm still moving in.

Here is the front wall


Here is the ceiling beam


Here is the back wall


Here is the live room back wall


Here is the live room front wall


I am going to rerun the test CD now. The room already feels tighter, but I am definitely getting some flutter echoes off the ceiling.

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by Dave Swift

Here are the pics. The room is so small it's hard to get a shot far enough back to get everything in... excuse the mess, I'm still moving in.

Here is the front wall


Here is the ceiling beam


Here is the back wall


Here is the live room back wall


Here is the live room front wall


I am going to rerun the test CD now. The room already feels tighter, but I am definitely getting some flutter echoes off the ceiling.

Ok try this, take the traps off the front wall and move them to the back wall.. Not the ones in the front corners but the front wall itself. If it helps great if not move back to front wall. Also YES you should treat the ceiling. It will make a huge difference.

Just a side note, Ethan and I just had a big talk about treating the front wall, so I have to give him credit for this idea. I bet it will not help, but guess what I am most of the time WRONG!!! ha ha ha

Glenn

[not like this]

I just completed the test CD, but I have not yet moved the traps to the back wall as Glenn (or Ethan) suggested. I will try it to see how it goes, but I'm actually kind of hoping it doesn't help, as there just is no space back there for two traps. I suppose I could hang one on the door... that door is going to be replaced anyway.

Here is the updated results. I should mention that besides adding the extra panels, I also tweaked the positioning of my speakers in the room.

http://www.soupkitchenstudios.com/misc/8traps.jpg

It is considerably better, but there is still room for improvement. How flat of a response can I hope to get? Where do I go from here?

[Capstan Cappy]

unless your not prepared to realy start a war with that room u won't i guess, i hope for you i'm wrong , there is still a gap of maximum 15db from 35 to 140 hz, wich is alot, think after the proper treatment u should be able to have a flat responce +/- 3 db

looks a lot better though keep it up

[Glenn Kuras]

That looks a lot better!!! I think if you treat the ceiling you will see this get even better and put a few more traps in.
How good can it get? Well my room is +/- about 5 db from 30 hz to 200 hz, but keep in mind that I have 13 or so bass traps and a program (ETF) that I can shoot the room in about 5 seconds. Getting a room +/- 15 db is pretty easy with bass traps, it is the last 15 that takes a lot of trial and error.

Glenn

[not like this]

Originally Posted by Capstan Cappy

unless your not prepared to realy start a war with that room u won't i guess

Sorry... I don't understand what you are saying here.

Glenn... Maybe this should go to PM or email, but I would like some advice on which of your products to get to complete the control room and then treat the live room. Would you advise that I replace some of the traps in the control room with tri-traps or monster traps, and then use the excess in the live room? Budget is a concern, so I want to do things right the first time, if possible.

I appreciate the help.

[Ethan Winer]

Glenn,

> I am most of the time WRONG!!! <

But you more than make up for it with your charisma.

--Ethan

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by Dave Swift

Sorry... I don't understand what you are saying here.

Glenn... Maybe this should go to PM or email, but I would like some advice on which of your products to get to complete the control room and then treat the live room. Would you advise that I replace some of the traps in the control room with tri-traps or monster traps, and then use the excess in the live room? Budget is a concern, so I want to do things right the first time, if possible.

I appreciate the help.

Better yet give me a call. Email your number to glenn.k@gikacoustics.com and we can talk on the phone.
Yes either the Tri or the Monster up front with the 244 in live room is a good idea. If you have the room then go with the Monster. If you room is short on room and or you want the cool factor (hey they really do look cool) then go with the tri.

Look forward to talking with you.

Glenn

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Glenn,

> I am most of the time WRONG!!! <

But you more than make up for it with your charisma.

--Ethan

Charisma? I thought it was my good looks.

Glenn

[Capstan Cappy]

Originally Posted by Capstan Cappy
unless your not prepared to realy start a war with that room u won't i guess

i comes down to what "myfippie" said about : the last 15db takes alot of trial and error

[RedWallStudio]

I don't mean to nose in here, but where can I get Ethan's test CD (I tooled around the website and couldn't find it) and what is the model number of the radio shack spl meter? I'm doing the same type of thing... so Im trying to prepare properly.

Thanks

[not like this]

Here is Ethan's Test CD...
http://realtraps.com/test-cd.htm

Be sure to check out his traps as well. Ethan's traps (Real Traps is his company) are very fine products.

My SPL meter is the Radio Shack digital "Sound Level Meter". They only sell two meters, one is digital the other is not. My meter does not have a model number on the unit itself. I believe there is a $10 difference in price between the two. Mine cost $50. It was located near micrphones and portable PA systems in the store.

[Shlomo]

Originally Posted by RedWallStudio

...and what is the model number of the radio shack spl meter? I'm doing the same type of thing... so Im trying to prepare properly.

Thanks

The digital one they currently sell on Radio Shack's website is model # 33-2055.

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by RedWallStudio

I don't mean to nose in here, but where can I get Ethan's test CD (I tooled around the website and couldn't find it) and what is the model number of the radio shack spl meter? I'm doing the same type of thing... so Im trying to prepare properly.

Thanks

I think it is great Ethan has this on his website so I do not want to take away from that. But if you want to really test your room look at programs like ETF. I have learned that running just one test is ok, but there can be errors when doing so. Really you should do a lot of tests to make sure there was no errors. ETF lets you shoot the room in about 5 seconds, so you can do a number of tests pretty fast and move things around to see what works best.

Glenn

[Ethan Winer]

Glenn,

> I thought it was my good looks. <

Of course, that too!

You should post the link to your band's video so everyone here can check you out up close and personal. I think the video is great, so I hope you don't mind my mentioning it here.

--Ethan

[JaJunk]

hey sorry to kinda change the subject a bit but if i got a Real-Time Spectrum Analyzer and ran that with the mic at a mix position with like white noise or pink noise would that be a correct way to survey my room bucause i am jsut now getting into the acoustic aspect of recording as i needed to get the equipment first


thanks
marc

[Acoustic Cloud]

Hi Glenn-Ethan, Ethan-Glenn,

I have 6 traps in my studio, and I think I have a good amount of control there. However, on the ceiling, I just have a bunch of auralex designs. What is the best trap to hang on the ceiling.

Ronan came over late last year and suggested a 4x4 703 trap to make, and hang at an angle. Im getting lazy though, and dont want to dust off my power tools!

Thanks!

[Ethan Winer]

Marc,

> if i got a Real-Time Spectrum Analyzer and ran that with the mic at a mix position with like white noise or pink noise would that be a correct way to survey my room <

That will tell you the raw response for that one location. But it won't tell you anything about time-related problems such as early reflections and modal ringing. Also, most RTAs are 1/3 octave, and that's way too coarse to assess the low frequency response in a small room.

I use the ETF and R+D software from these guys:

www.acoustisoft.com

There's also this new program that's totally free and gets a lot of praise:

www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/

Either of these programs will be more useful that a plain RTA. There are graphs and explanations about this in my Acoustics FAQ and also on the Articles and Videos pages of my company's web site.

--Ethan

[Acoustic Cloud]

uhhm... Ethan? ^^^ lil help?

[not like this]

Acoustic Cloud -- 2" 2'x4' broadband absorption panels seem to be the most common recommendation for ceiling treatments.

Ethan, thanks for suggesting that free software. It works on mac too! Now I don't have to haul a PC into the studio to run ETF.

I just purchased a truckload of panels from Glenn. I will update this thread after I have treated and tested both of my rooms with the additional panels, incase it can be of any help to others in the future.

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by Acoustic Cloud

Hi Glenn-Ethan, Ethan-Glenn,

I have 6 traps in my studio, and I think I have a good amount of control there. However, on the ceiling, I just have a bunch of auralex designs. What is the best trap to hang on the ceiling.

Ronan came over late last year and suggested a 4x4 703 trap to make, and hang at an angle. Im getting lazy though, and dont want to dust off my power tools!

Thanks!

Well if you don't want to make them then I would go with our GIK 242 for the ceiling. 3 is a good number to go with. You do want to space them 2" off the ceiling.

Glenn

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Glenn,

> I thought it was my good looks. <

Of course, that too!

You should post the link to your band's video so everyone here can check you out up close and personal. I think the video is great, so I hope you don't mind my mentioning it here.

--Ethan

Actually Warren for Front End Audio took some pictures of the plant with me in it. See here http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?t=73097
I think the video is on our myspace or the link is there www.myspace.com/thecogburns.

Glenn

[Ethan Winer]

> uhhm... Ethan? ^^^ lil help? What is the best trap to hang on the ceiling. <

The goal there is the same as anywhere else: The thicker the panel, the lower in frequency it absorbs to. So while rigid fiberglass two inches thick is better than the foam you have now, four inches thick is even better because it adds that much more bass trapping to the room. And more bass trapping is always welcome.

--Ethan

[RainbowStorm]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

> uhhm... Ethan? ^^^ lil help? What is the best trap to hang on the ceiling. <

The goal there is the same as anywhere else: The thicker the panel, the lower in frequency it absorbs to. So while rigid fiberglass two inches thick is better than the foam you have now, four inches thick is even better because it adds that much more bass trapping to the room. And more bass trapping is always welcome.

--Ethan

You are nominated a "Gearslutz Award" in the acoustics category. You have really helped a lot with acoustics related issues here on Gearslutz! Great, great stuff! Thanks!