Stellar CM5/6, AA CM47, Opal OM7 and AIR Swordfish etc??

[miscend]

The Avantone CV-12 is available in the UK. On eBay and from KMR audio. I understand it's got similar components and capsule as the CM6.

[dickiefunk]

Hmm I guess the Avantone CV-12 could be an option.

The voice that I mainly record is this mezzo soprano female gospel singer :-

Ley Adewole, Gospel Singer, Songwriter and Vocal Coach

I currently have a Neumann TLM102, SE Electronics SE2200T, Audio Technica AT4040 and KEL HM-2D. I also have a faulty Oktava MK-319 which I'm considering getting repaired and modded at some point.

I am basically looking for another mic to go with my current mics to use primarily for vocals and recently tried an SE Gemini II which I really liked but is well out of my budget.

I don't want to spend more than £400 on another mic as I have other things I need to buy for the studio.
The mics on my list are :-

Opal OM7
AIR Swordfish (though their webshop page is no longer working?)
SE Gemini II secondhand. (missed out on one that sold for £417 on ebay about a month ago)
Get my Oktava MK-319 modded and repaired by JJ Audio.
Avantone CV-12 (new possibility?)

I have had pretty good results with the TLM102 on a BigBand track, SE2200T and AT4040 on more modern Gospel productions but neither of these mics are perfect for her voice.

The Neumann is pretty good but can get a little harsh in high frequencies on some sources.
The AT4040 doesn't get as harsh and copes with the high frequencies better but just sounds too bright overall.
The SE2200T can sound great on certain sources but can again get a little harsh on the high frequencies with loud sources and can be a fraction too bright.
The KEL HM2D is doesn't suffer from the high frequency harshness but is generally a little too dark and can sound like a ribbon mic.
I like all my current mics but am looking for a mic that is pretty much sibilance free, has lots of detail and body without getting harsh in the high end at loud volumes.

I have got decent preamps (Focusrite Liquid Channel, UA Solo 610, Focusrite ISA One digital) so I don't need to upgrade or buy anything new here!

So, with this info what would you recommend?

[uncle duncan]

Originally Posted by dickiefunk

...
So, with this info what would you recommend?

Look at the frequency response graphs for the mics you've got and the mics you're considering. Have you checked the KEL website? They have sound samples and response graphs for each mic. There's also RecordingHacks.com. And ZenProAudio.com has a bunch of sounds samples you can access via their "clipalator" interface.

Have you considered a Gefell mic? If you were to add up the cost of all your cheap mics, you could probably afford a Gefell. In other words, if you keep buying a succession of $400 mics, you'll never be able to afford a Gefell. Save your money for a good mic. You'll thank me later.

[dickiefunk]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

Have you considered a Gefell mic? If you were to add up the cost of all your cheap mics, you could probably afford a Gefell. In other words, if you keep buying a succession of $400 mics, you'll never be able to afford a Gefell. Save your money for a good mic. You'll thank me later.

Hi, yes I tried a Gefell M930 a while back and thought it sounded great. I tried it on this vocalist and thought it sounded very natural and didn't get harsh at all but I would like something with a more larger than life and upfront character.

I've also tried the Peluso 2247, Brauner Phantom, AKG C414 B-ULS, Audio Technica 4047, CAD E100S and Shure SM7B and none of these quite had the sound that I was after.

The closest so far has been the SE Gemini II

[kidvybes]

Originally Posted by miscend

The Avantone CV-12 is available in the UK. On eBay and from KMR audio. I understand it's got similar components and capsule as the CM6.

...actually, in reference to the components and capsule, not true...

...the Avantone CV-12 is based on the Apex 460...it has an upgraded circuit (while retaining the stock secondary cathode-follower), upgraded triode tube (6072A), but the small 32mm K67 capsule and transformer remain stock (it also has a wooden box for the mic and a spiffy red paint-job)...the CM-6 has an upgraded/modified plate-follower circuit (which eliminates the secondary cathode-follower), upgraded EF806S pentode tube, a larger, higher-quality 35mm K67 capsule, and upgraded BV8-type transformer...very little other than a few capacitors in common, but manufactured by the same factory in China...

...none of the other mics in the OP's initial post share the proprietary circuit design of the CM-6, but the CM-47 and Swordfish do share capsule and transformer choices with the CM-6...the OM7 is an entirely different design utilizing the smaller stock 32mm K67 capsule, stock transformer and a fixed (soldered) miniature single-triode tube...other than the OM7, the mics mentioned all have socketed tubes, allowing for easy tube swaps/upgrades...

...I have tried the sE Gemini (original version) and found the less expensive sE Z5600A to be a better value (I prefer the transformer-coupled output of the Z5600A to the tube-coupled output of the Gemini)...you might want to keep an eye out for a pre-owned one locally...

[dickiefunk]

Hi kidvybes,

Thanks for the info. What are your thoughts on how the CM6 and CM47 compare in tone? Have you tried the AIR Swordfish?
Also, which of the mics out of the CM6, CM47 and Swordfish has the highest quality components/circuit?

Finally, what do you think of the component choices in the Opal OM7? Would you say this is better, worse or different to the others?

I soldered miniature tube in the OM7 puts me off a little as I would prefer to be able to swap tubes easily!

I'll definitely keep an eye out for the SE Z5600mkII aswell!

[kidvybes]

Originally Posted by dickiefunk

Hi kidvybes,

Thanks for the info. What are your thoughts on how the CM6 and CM47 compare in tone? Have you tried the AIR Swordfish?
Also, which of the mics out of the CM6, CM47 and Swordfish has the highest quality components/circuit?

Finally, what do you think of the component choices in the Opal OM7? Would you say this is better, worse or different to the others?

...the simple pentode-based plate-follower circuit of the CM-6 give it an airier, clearer, more detailed tonality than the dual-triode based cathode follower circuit of the CM-47...the CM-47 has a bit more "mojo" or character, due to the secondary triode of the tube loading the transformer output...so I would summarize the CM-6 as natural/neutral with a very modern pop-radio sheen, while the CM-47 is a bit more vintage sounding (dare I say "warmer") with less detail...both are excellent for vocal tracking...

...I have not tried the AIR Swordfish, but the product info and specs would indicate that it shares much with the AA CM-47...all of these mics originate from the same factory...the components used in the CM-6, CM-47 and Swordfish are similar quality...

...as for the OM7, I would say the smaller capsule, stock transformer and soldered tube leave a bit to be desired...while I have not used it, I would expect more from the other 3 mics due to their upgraded capsules, transformers and swappable tube socket implimentation...

[kidvybes]

Originally Posted by Frank_Case

The diaphragms are "German mylar diaphragms" which makes me believe they were made specifically in Germany rather than in China, where most cheap diaphragms are made these days.

...the 35mm 6-micron K67-type capsule that is shared by the CM-6 and CM-47 is made in China utilizing high quality German mylar...you may recognize the capsule as the metalwork was originally tooled for John Peluso...
...as per Dave Thomas (of Advanced Audio), "The CM-6 has a 1.07" /35mm OD capsule with 6 micron diaphragms and it was designed by John Peluso with the help of Verner Ruvalds who was a physicist for Georg Neuman"....
...the same factory that makes this capsule also currently supplies Telefunken, Blackspade, Sontronics, Charter Oaks, and a few other well respected "boutique" microphone brands that I'd prefer not to mention at this time...

[mamm7215]

What's your signal chain? I can NOT believe you can't find a good sound using the mics that you a) have and/or b) have tried. I use 3 mics. A modified Apex 460 with a cel-12 capsule, a modified Apex 405 ribbon and a 57. I run through SCA N72's >Drawmer 1968me(sometimes)>Sonar X1. There's almost never a time this doesn't get me at least 90-95% of the way there initially. Compress and eq to taste.

[mamm7215]

Oops, meant cek-12 capsule...autocorrect

[dickiefunk]

Thanks for the replies guys. This is very helpful info.

My vocal chain is :-

Neumann TLM102, SE2200T orAT4040 into Focusrite Liquid Channel or UA Solo610

I record the vocals in a treated vocal booth.

I'm not sure if I want more mojo or not at the moment. When I tried out the SE Gemini II the first thing I noticed with this mic is the vocal sounded bigger and more impressive. The mic produced a huge bottom end that still sounded clear and tight. The top end was very clear, detailed and had excellent presence without sounding harsh or sibilant. The mids seemed well balanced with the high and low frequencies.

Apparently the Gemini is quite a unique sounding mic so am wondering if I'm wasting my time considering the cheaper Stellar CM6 and Advanced Audio CM47?

I had not considered the SE Z5600 II before but after kidvybes mentioned it I noticed that its cardioid frequency response looks VERY similar if not the same as the Gemini II!?? Because of this I'm interested in finding out more about this mic.

Does anyone know how the sound of the Z5600II compares to the Gemini II?

Also, can anyone describe the tonal and performance differences between the CM6. CM47, Z5600II and GeminiII?

[optionalanalogue]

I am also interested in CM6. CM47, Z5600II and GeminiII? also the the more expensive LeWilson 247 and Pearl cc22

[SeniorityFedup]

Don't mean to start plugging on GS but if you are interested, my CM 47 SE is for sale. A additional upgrades have been done to it. As a male vocalist I can say its a great mic running thru the blue robbie in a very well treated environment. I no longer have said treated environment.. .

[dave thomas]

Hi Dickie, the OPAL comes from the same factory as our CM47 as does the AIR and the Stellar.

This is the reason we can sell microphone for such a reasonable price as they make the bodies 1000 at a time. However, we do not use stock circuits or Chinese tube such as the 6J1b. We have lots of changes made.

The OPAL has the stock 32mm capsule as used in the Avantone CV12 and has a soldered in 6J1b type tube. This is the same capsule used in the APEX 460 and other low budget LDC microphones. It has a smaller 4:1 ratio transformer which in my experience has ratio that is to low for this sub-minature?

The 6J1b tube is about $4 fob China while the 6072a cost me $10 each in lots of 100 and then we send them to China.

The Stellar and our CM47 use the same 35mm capsule based on the work of Verner Ruvalds and John Peluso. The is a great sounding capsule.

It has a natural HF rise up past 10khz that adds nice air to the vocal.

Often in pop/rock mixes with our U47's back in the day at Ocean we added 3db at 12khz to the vocal to get it to cut through in the mix.

The Stellar uses a EF86 configured as a plate output self bias circuit.

It is a single stage plate output circuit that requires a cathode bypass cap.

It is probably the best of the single stage plate output circuits and looks identical to me to the Gefell UM92.

The CM47 has a two stage CCDA circuit that I optimized around the 6072a which allows us to combine the advantage of the self bias circuit of the ELA M251 with the advantage of fixed bias circuit of the C12 and U47 which does not require a cathode bypass capacitor and allow the tube to run more linear.

The CM47 and Stellar use the same BV8 type 6.5:1 output transformer.

The OPAL will sound more like a MA200.

While the CM47 sounds like a Soundeluxe U99.

Here is the CM47 on a classical vocalist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk-C...feature=relmfu

The CM47 has 1% resistors, high quality capacitors plus we supply the factory with the 6072a tube which are very easy to replace in our microphone. I also upgrade the power supply to optimize the capsule polarization voltage. We use a 2.2ufd metal film output capacitor and the 35mm K67 like capsule are skinned for us with 6 micron diaphragms. This is the same capsule used in the Gemini which I believe is Cardiod only and uses a dual cathode follower output stage with no transformer.

The Gemini doesn't have the symbiotic relationship that is created between a tube and transformer. I remember upgrading one for client about two or three years ago.

The CCDA circuit we use yields 4db more headroom in the front end and the head amp runs ultra linear and is not loaded down by a transformer as we use the second half of the tube to drive the BV8 from the cathode. This provides an even lower output impedance than the U47.

CCDA stands for Constant Current Draw Amplifier. As the audio waveform goes positive in the first stage (head amp) the second stage (cathode follower) goes negative and the current draw from the power supply stay constant. This is a designers dream.

The CM6 sounds extremely good for the money but the response of the CM47 goes down and extra octave before it rolls out and the high end will have a bit more transparency because of the much faster transient response of driving the output transformer from the cathode. Really HiFi circuit from the 60's used the cathode to drive transformers and as a low Z output.

Where the CM47 shows its muscle is on loud vocal passages and in front of the bass amp or on saxophone.


I have include the response of the CM47 in Cardiod and our CM47SE in cardiod which is identical except for the more vintage AK47 capsule having the darker response curve of the K47 used in the original U47.

The CM47 sound much like a Soundeluxe U99 which has smooth mids and nice air up at 12khz. The CM47se has the same smooth mids but less "sizzle" up past 10khz.

All our microphones are tested here in our shop before being shipped and we service them all here in my shop where we keep spare, tubes, capsules,shocks and cables.

I have been a pro audio tech since 1965 so I have years of experience with tube circuits and microphones plus the studio I designed and built in 1979 won a Grammy for CRYING the duet between KD Lang and Roy Orbison.

Cheers, Dave Thomas

Originally Posted by dickiefunk

Hi,

I'm interested in buying one of the Stellar CM-6 type mics and am unsure which to go for.
I live in the UK so the Stellar CM-6 is not an option due to VAT + shipping tax!

It looks like the UK alternatives are :-

Opal OM7

The OM7

AIR Swordfish

A.I.R Swordfish

and the Advanced Audio CM47

Advanced Audio Microphones

These mics all appear to be very similar but I'm wondering which uses the highest quality electronics?

Also wondering if there are any more of these type mics I could buy in Europe?

[dickiefunk]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for all this info. Your CM47 certainly sounds beautiful in that clip of the classical singer. Do you have any clips of the CM47 on a harder and louder female vocal?

[dandeurloo]

We used one on the Chris Tomlin tracks we did. He has a great voice. Also, we used one on the Josh form "The Afters". These songs are very pop but it gives you another idea of what it can do.

Check out these tracks.
(Light Up the Sky - The Afters : Songs, Reviews, Credits, Awards : AllMusic)

Listen to " I will Follow" (And If Our God Is for Us... - Chris Tomlin : Songs, Reviews, Credits, Awards : AllMusic)

[kidvybes]

Originally Posted by dave thomas

The Stellar and our CM47 use the same 35mm capsule based on the work of Verner Ruvalds and John Peluso. The is a great sounding capsule.

It has a natural HF rise up past 10khz that adds nice air to the vocal.

The Stellar uses a EF86 configured as a plate output self bias circuit.

It is a single stage plate output circuit that requires a cathode bypass cap.

It is probably the best of the single stage plate output circuits and looks identical to me to the Gefell UM92.

The CM47 has a two stage CCDA circuit that I optimized around the 6072a which allows us to combine the advantage of the self bias circuit of the ELA M251 with the advantage of fixed bias circuit of the C12 and U47 which does not require a cathode bypass capacitor and allow the tube to run more linear.

The CM47 and Stellar use the same BV8 type 6.5:1 output transformer.

The CM6 sounds extremely good for the money but the response of the CM47 goes down and extra octave before it rolls out and the high end will have a bit more transparency because of the much faster transient response of driving the output transformer from the cathode. Really HiFi circuit from the 60's used the cathode to drive transformers and as a low Z output.

Where the CM47 shows its muscle is on loud vocal passages and in front of the bass amp or on saxophone.

...my personal experience tracking vocals on various voices with both the CM-6 and the CM-47 does not support "CM47 goes down an extra octave before it rolls out and the high end will have a bit more transparency because of the much faster transient response of driving the output transformer from the cathode"...while I agree that the CM-47 has a more prominant bottom end, IMHO, the CM-6 has the clearer, more detailed and transparent top-end...as I've said in my previous post, the CM-6 is the more neutral/natural sounding of the two, while the CM-47 comparatively displays a somewhat coloured voicing, with a bit of "mojo" (dare I say "warmth"), and that's a good thing as well!...

...both are exceptional choices for vocal tracking...

[jackinthebox]

QUOTE
"The OPAL has the stock 32mm capsule as used in the Avantone CV12 and has a soldered in 6J1b type tube. This is the same capsule used in the APEX 460 and other low budget LDC microphones. It has a smaller 4:1 ratio transformer which in my experience has ratio that is to low for this sub-minature?

The 6J1b tube is about $4 fob China while the 6072a cost me $10 each in lots of 100 and then we send them to China."

THE OPAL OM7 MICROPHONE DOES NOT USE A 6J1B CHINESE VALVE.
THE CIRCUIT USES A RUSSIAN MILITARY SPEC 6C31B-P WIRE ENDED SUBMINIATURE VALVE. THIS VALVE IS STILL IN PRODUCTION DUE TO IT'S USE IN SOVIET WARPLANES. IT WAS ALSO USED IN THE LOMO 19A19 MICROPHONE. THE 19A19 WAS BASED ON THE AKG C12 AND SOUNDS FANTASTIC. THE 6C31B-P IS SIMILAR TO THE VENERABLE AC701K USED IN THE 251 AND M49. I HAVE NOT HAD ONE SINGLE 6C31B-P GO BAD OR NOISY IN MY EXPERIENCE SO FAR. THEY ALSO NEVER EXHIBIT ANY SEATING PROBLEMS WHICH CAN OCCUR IN SOCKETED VALVES.
I PERSONALLY LIKE THE SOUND OF THIS VALVE A LOT.
THE OM7 CIRCUIT USES HIGH QUALITY EPCOS FILM CAPACITORS WHERE THEY COUNT AND EACH MIC IS TESTED AND TWEAKED BY HAND. POLYSTYRENE CAPACITORS ARE ALSO USED IN CRITICAL LOCATIONS.
I HAVE RECEIVED VERY FAVOURABLE REVIEWS FROM MANY HIGH END USERS IN LONDON AND I HAVE MADE MANY UPGRADED, CUSTOMISED VERSIONS OF THE OM7. A LUNDAHL TRANSFORMER AND MUNDORF CAPACITORS REALLY SHOW OFF HOW GOOD THAT 32MM CAPSULE ACTUALLY SOUNDS. INCIDENTALLY THE SAME 34MM OR 35MM CAPSULES IN USE IN THE OTHER MICS ARE AVAILABLE AS AN OPTION IN THE OM7. I CAN ALSO INSTALL 34MM EDGE TERMINATED CK12 TYPE CAPSULES OR EVEN THIERSCH OR TIM CAMPBELL CAPSULES FOR ADDITIONAL COST.
I HAVEN'T HEARD THE ADVANCED AUDIO MICS OR THE STELLARS. DAVE THOMAS HAS OBVIOUSLY NOT HEARD OR SEEN AN OM7. NEITHER HAS KIDVYBES FOR THAT MATTER.
ANY OM7 USERS CARE TO GIVE US AN OPINION?