Built in or outboard preamps?

[sheoth]

Hey there try having a look at interfaces that either have ADAT or a way to bypass preamps. That way further down the line if you decide that you want a preamp with a different colour to it you could easily just route into another one but until then you still have the preamps in your interface

[thelion]

Originally Posted by sheoth

Hey there try having a look at interfaces that either have ADAT or a way to bypass preamps. That way further down the line if you decide that you want a preamp with a different colour to it you could easily just route into another one but until then you still have the preamps in your interface

Hm, total newb question: can I not just use instrument line ins and bypass the preamps that way, if I were using an outboard preamp with balanced TRS outs?

In any case, do you have anything specifically in mind?

For the price I was looking at the Presonus 44VSL, because it doesn't seem like there are a lot of products in the 4 XLR department, or as I said an interface with good converters (for example?) that just has TRS ins and a good preamp, however, I'm not so well-versed in that realm, so I don't know which products I ought to look at.

[Liquid Shadow]

First of all you have to know what type of end product you are trying to achieve. Many audio interfaces have very decent preamps built-in and for many people they are more than sufficient to get the job done.

Another important thing to keep in mind is, do you want to go USB or Firewire with the interface?

[thelion]

Originally Posted by Liquid Shadow

First of all you have to know what type of end product you are trying to achieve. Many audio interfaces have very decent preamps built-in and for many people they are more than sufficient to get the job done.

Another important thing to keep in mind is, do you want to go USB or Firewire with the interface?

I agree that most pre-amps seem to be pretty good for most people, I guess I'm just thinking that I'd rather have fewer inputs (like 4) if it means I get a better sound, in that money would be going to my priorities and not all those extras like more inputs or built-in effects. I think my priorities are good preamps, ability to record 4 tracks simultaneously and a good analog to digital converter, possibly the ability to expand later with a second interface.

I would prefer Firewire, however, I'm not opposed to USB given that it often seems to be cheaper.

Does this information help you er... help me?

[XodiaK]

+1 for outboard preamps and converter going adat or spdif into the interface. consider the onboard preamps of an interface backups or extras when you absolutely need more. dont expect onboard pres to produce results of worthy note, unless your interface is top shelf.

[thelion]

Originally Posted by XodiaK

+1 for outboard preamps and converter going adat or spdif into the interface. consider the onboard preamps of an interface backups or extras when you absolutely need more. dont expect onboard pres to produce results of worthy note, unless your interface is top shelf.

So you're saying to connect outboard preamps into the interface I need to use ADAT? Does this mean that I would need to find a preamp that comes with ADAT (and therefore an interface with ADAT?) or is there a converter? I'm not well-versed with digital conversions. Could I not just send an analog audio signal from the preamp to the interface and use the converter in the interface to send it to my computer?

Can you guys recommend some gear I should be looking into? I appreciate all the responses I'm getting.

[XodiaK]

Originally Posted by thelion

So you're saying to connect outboard preamps into the interface I need to use ADAT? Does this mean that I would need to find a preamp that comes with ADAT (and therefore an interface with ADAT?) or is there a converter? I'm not well-versed with digital conversions. Could I not just send an analog audio signal from the preamp to the interface and use the converter in the interface to send it to my computer?

Can you guys recommend some gear I should be looking into? I appreciate all the responses I'm getting.

you can surely run an outboard preamp into a line-in of an interface, essentially using its converters. but i would make sure to get an interface with digital input options, which most do, so you have the ability of also getting outboard converters when the time comes that you want better analog-to-digital conversion than the interface offers.

[XodiaK]

Originally Posted by thelion

Can you guys recommend some gear I should be looking into? I appreciate all the responses I'm getting.

i guess that all depends what your budget is, and what kind of computer specs you'll be working with. USB? Firewire? Mac? PC? Ram? CPU?

[thelion]

Originally Posted by XodiaK

you can surely run an outboard preamp into a line-in of an interface, essentially using its converters. but i would make sure to get an interface with digital input options, which most do, so you have the ability of also getting outboard converters when the time comes that you want better analog-to-digital conversion than the interface offers.

Ah okay I see. Are there any outboard preamps and interfaces you might steer me towards? I looked at the Golden Age pre 73, but that's only single channel. Does it make sense to get different preamps to use all at once, or am I just getting silly?

[thelion]

Originally Posted by XodiaK

i guess that all depends what your budget is, and what kind of computer specs you'll be working with. USB? Firewire? Mac? PC? Ram? CPU?

Budget is reasonably flexible. Macbook pro 2.53 processor and 4 gigs of ram. Not too picky about USB or Firewire.

[XodiaK]

Originally Posted by thelion

Ah okay I see. Are there any outboard preamps and interfaces you might steer me towards? I looked at the Golden Age pre 73, but that's only single channel. Does it make sense to get different preamps to use all at once, or am I just getting silly?

not silly at all. think of having different preamps as different colors to use. some will yield quite different results depending on the mics used and the source. the pre73 seems quite popular for an oldschool analog vibe, and then theres others like the isa-one that sound rather clean. as far as interfaces go, you could get one that has 8 onboard pres like the m-audio profire 2626 or the focusrite saffire model, or even motu. many to choose from.

[XodiaK]

Originally Posted by thelion

Budget is reasonably flexible. Macbook pro 2.53 processor and 4 gigs of ram. Not too picky about USB or Firewire.

whenever possible, use firewire instead of usb. if your macbook has a firewire port or card, then definitely get an interface with firewire connection. much more stable for audio in my opinion.

[thelion]

Originally Posted by XodiaK

whenever possible, use firewire instead of usb. if your macbook has a firewire port or card, then definitely get an interface with firewire connection. much more stable for audio in my opinion.

I was looking at the MOTU 4pre (I like the size, 4 inputs, room to expand later, works well with Macs) and then at the M Audio 2626 you just recommended, and I guess I'm wondering about the sample rate. Is it worth it to get something that does 96khz versus the 192khz (as in the M Audio)? I tend to stay away from M Audio because I've had a couple of things break and feel cheaply made in the past, however, those specs are enticing. I guess I'm thinking does it make sense to spend money on outboard preamps when the sample rate is going to be less than optimal? Am I just splitting hairs on this?

[XodiaK]

Originally Posted by thelion

I was looking at the MOTU 4pre (I like the size, 4 inputs, room to expand later, works well with Macs) and then at the M Audio 2626 you just recommended, and I guess I'm wondering about the sample rate. Is it worth it to get something that does 96khz versus the 192khz (as in the M Audio)? I tend to stay away from M Audio because I've had a couple of things break and feel cheaply made in the past, however, those specs are enticing. I guess I'm thinking does it make sense to spend money on outboard preamps when the sample rate is going to be less than optimal? Am I just splitting hairs on this?

unless you dip below 44.1khz, the samplerate isnt going to degrade the sound quality of a good outboard preamp. samplerate is subjective to everyone differently. some people are comfortable with one samplerate, while you or myself might like another. sort of like an aquired taste, and what YOU think sounds better. personally, i record @ 48k and do my mixdowns @ 96k. however, an output CD is going to be 16bit/44.1k

[thelion]

Originally Posted by XodiaK

unless you dip below 44.1khz, the samplerate isnt going to degrade the sound quality of a good outboard preamp. samplerate is subjective to everyone differently. some people are comfortable with one samplerate, while you or myself might like another. sort of like an aquired taste, and what YOU think sounds better. personally, i record @ 48k and do my mixdowns @ 96k. however, an output CD is going to be 16bit/44.1k

Ah! I see, I see.

How are the preamps in the Motu 4Pre anyway vs. Focusrite Pro 40 (which is a bit larger than I'd like)? I'm thinking for now I'm going to go with something that has 4xlr ins and look into single channel pre-amps (GAP Pre-73 or BLA B12A) in awhile. I don't want to buy super high-end stuff, just stuff with room to grow and good sound reproduction.

[gouge]

i'd avoid colour, it's completely over stated in my opinion with cheaper gear. the flavour of the month so to speak. there is a big difference between hi end colour and low end colour in reality.

i think you would be better off with a rack of syteks for drums over any of the cheaper preamps any day of the week. they are clean, fast, accurate, cheap and open. in my mind a decent step up from most of the preamps mentioned in the low end forums and cheaper when you look at price per preamp. they may be clean but they are not clinical and awesome on drums because they are fast and able to capture transients. i also believe you will get much more flexibility out of clean open preamps and flat response mics in general.

if you've got more money then you could go for api or daking for drums. they're a touch smoother and slightly bigger and punchier then the syteks.

most cheap all in one converters and a lot of mixing desks use the same input for mic/line in and create the line in by using a pad. so no difference whether you go in via the line in or the mic pre.

you can go in via inserts in a lot of cases which allows you to bypass the input amps.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by thelion

Am I better off getting an outboard preamp and simply using an audio interface with good digital converters using the line-ins

OR

Find an audio interface with okay preamps?

Depends upon your budget and your desire for quality, and your plans for upgrading in the future. In another thread we are discussing the Behringer ADA8000, which is 8 mic pres, 8 line I/O and 8 channels of ADAT I and O in one cheap box. Coupled with any ADAT I/O computer interface, it gets you started cheaply yet allows you to improve pieces/parts along the way without having to replace the whole box. Nothing on it is stellar, it is a decent tool to get one started.

But the people who make great mic pres seldom make great AD/DAs, and vice versa. You buy one of those little interface/console combo units, and you have to replace the whole thing and face a new learning curve to upgrade any part. So if you grow to hate the mic pres, or the converters, or whatever, you'll hang on to it a lot longer because it is such a PITA and so costly to do anything else.

[jimbridgman]

Originally Posted by thelion

Budget is reasonably flexible. Macbook pro 2.53 processor and 4 gigs of ram. Not too picky about USB or Firewire.

If your budget is truly flexible, then I would look at the Focusrite liquid saffire pro 56. It is Focusrites top of the line unit right now. I bought 2 of them (one for an edit/overdub room at my own pro facility, and the other for my home studio), the mic pres are some of the best, and you get 2 of the best liquid channel pre amps that money can buy (they emulate 10 preamps, that are some of the most lusted after, and they really do sound close to the real thing), and it also has MIDI in and out as well. You can get this thing for $799 USD.

I could have bought anything, I was looking at the apollo, and the prism (I have one in the mastering suite at the pro studio), and several others, but I went with the LS 56 for the flexibility and the preamps. Now, does the LS 56 compare with those 2K plus units, prolly not so much, but it fit my needs and then some, and I was so happy with the liquid pres, and the conversion, that I just can't stop recommending it to others. I will say that I do feel that this can compete with the more expensive RME units though.

Now it has 8 mic pres (6 standard focusrite "green" pres, and 2 liquid pres), which I know it was more than you will need, but to be honest that gives you flexibility down the road. It has 2 ADAT inputs for 16 more preamps, maybe connect a few of the focusrite liquid 4 pres to it, for 8 more liquid pre channels, just a thought.

Liquid Saffire 56 Audio Interfaces Professional 28 In / 28 Out with 2 Liquid and 6 Focusrite Pre-amps

Focusrite Liquid Saffire 56 - FireWire LIQUID SAFFIRE 56 B&H


Here is a review that also gives the mic pre amp emulations at the end:

Focusrite Liquid Saffire 56 - Sound on Sound Review

Jim

[thelion]

I was talking to the guy at the music store on Friday about Focusrite Liquid Saffire Pro 56 and he made a good point about the emulations as sounding different in every set of monitors (which admittedly is true of any equipment), however, it makes you wonder what Focusrite were using when they were designing the emulations.

Bill@WelcomeHome, I'm a bit confused about your point: if the Behringer is a mediocre piece of equipment, what is the draw to buy one if I don't need 8 ins for example, then the draw to buy it for number of ins isn't there and neither for the preamp. I guess I'm a tad confused.

Gouge, I looked into the Syteks and they seem like a great product for the money. Because I'd also be using these preamps for other instruments and vocals (primarily female alto), I'm worried that transparency on all instruments might sound a bit cold. What are your thoughts on that?

[jimbridgman]

Originally Posted by thelion

I was talking to the guy at the music store on Friday about Focusrite Liquid Saffire Pro 56 and he made a good point about the emulations as sounding different in every set of monitors (which admittedly is true of any equipment), however, it makes you wonder what Focusrite were using when they were designing the emulations.

Bill@WelcomeHome, I'm a bit confused about your point: if the Behringer is a mediocre piece of equipment, what is the draw to buy one if I don't need 8 ins for example, then the draw to buy it for number of ins isn't there and neither for the preamp. I guess I'm a tad confused.

Gouge, I looked into the Syteks and they seem like a great product for the money. Because I'd also be using these preamps for other instruments and vocals (primarily female alto), I'm worried that transparency on all instruments might sound a bit cold. What are your thoughts on that?

Always take what a sales guy tells you with a grain of salt, their knowledge is usually limited to marketing and sales sheets, with less than decent application.

I will tell you that each emulation sounds different than the OG equipment, but I will tell you if you dial it in right by using the harmonics control on the liquid pres you can get very close.

We did a blind test at my pro facility a week after we installed the LS 56 in the edit/overdub room, with my 5 engineers and only 1 (our mastering engineer) got them all correct as which was the real thing and which was the emulation, everyone else only got 1 or 2 correct. It was all blind test with a check list as to which sound a or b was the real deal. Yes we have or now had, most of the pres that the LS 56 emulates.

The differences will be greater with an untreated/ poorly treated space, and monitors that are not the best in the first place. Now I will tell you that the 1073 emulation sounds fantastic and the helios sounds fantastic, the Avalon emulation is very nice as well, but they do all have a little different sound from the real thing, but they are close enough that you will be very happy with the results. With the 56 you can then buy some boutique pres that are way out there, and not have to worry about trying to get things like the 1073, and the avalons, etc. I feel that the LS 56 really does give the best and most amount of flexibility of the bunch in the below 2K budget.

I would get the shop that told you that, to let you have a go with the interface in thier shop for an hour or so. The pro shop I go to, let me come in after hours and record an acoustic guitar and singer on the thing, and let me bring in my own monitors, and I did not even buy the gear from them in the end, as they could not match the deal I got.

Just my opinions on the matter.

Jim

[gouge]

Originally Posted by thelion

Gouge, I looked into the Syteks and they seem like a great product for the money. Because I'd also be using these preamps for other instruments and vocals (primarily female alto), I'm worried that transparency on all instruments might sound a bit cold. What are your thoughts on that?

it will work anywhere and is especially good on acoustic instruments with lots of transients. like percussion, acoustic guitar etc. electric guitar, bass or vocals also no problems. get the instrument sounding great and the preamps will deliver a great sounding instrument. the sytek is effectively a neotek preamp. neotek desks get used across a broad spectrum of music from rock to classical and jazz.

they are not clinical. yes they are clean but they do warm up when pushed. plus they will treat ribbon mics very well. you can get the burbrown chips in channels 3-4 etc.

i agree that vocals can sound better when you use a preamp or mic with some weight in it but there is no reason why you can't get great sounding vocals out of the syteks. if you want to smooth it further or add in some extra distortion (noise) then stick an art pro vla after it or use an emulator in your daw. the mic selected can go add a lot, from bright clinical to warm and smooth. stick a tube mic in front and you get smooth. stick a rode nt1a in front and you get clinical. having clean fast preamps gives you more options with your initial setup and more important than flavour in my mind is depth which is what you get with better quality preamps.

for alto female voice and cheap i'd try either the re-20 or an m160 ribbon mic into the syteks etc. both of those mics will work elsewhere like on guitar, drums, bass etc. there are a lot of companies around that modify mics also. oktavamod etc.

[thelion]

Originally Posted by gouge

it will work anywhere and is especially good on acoustic instruments with lots of transients. like percussion, acoustic guitar etc. electric guitar, bass or vocals also no problems. get the instrument sounding great and the preamps will deliver a great sounding instrument. the sytek is effectively a neotek preamp. neotek desks get used across a broad spectrum of music from rock to classical and jazz.

they are not clinical. yes they are clean but they do warm up when pushed. plus they will treat ribbon mics very well. you can get the burbrown chips in channels 3-4 etc.

i agree that vocals can sound better when you use a preamp or mic with some weight in it but there is no reason why you can't get great sounding vocals out of the syteks. if you want to smooth it further or add in some extra distortion (noise) then stick an art pro vla after it or use an emulator in your daw. the mic selected can go add a lot, from bright clinical to warm and smooth. stick a tube mic in front and you get smooth. stick a rode nt1a in front and you get clinical. having clean fast preamps gives you more options with your initial setup and more important than flavour in my mind is depth which is what you get with better quality preamps.

for alto female voice and cheap i'd try either the re-20 or an m160 ribbon mic into the syteks etc. both of those mics will work elsewhere like on guitar, drums, bass etc. there are a lot of companies around that modify mics also. oktavamod etc.

Hm, definitely considering it, or maybe a pair of BLA Auteurs, although the Sytek price is more attractive. I currently use an EV RE-16 for vocals, which is similar to the RE-20.

How about something like an M Audio Profire 610 with its apparently high quality converter after the Sytek?

[gouge]

i dunno, i haven't heard enough all in one converters to make a call.

it all comes down to budget. for a little more money you get a decent step up.
lynx aurora 8 second hand.

what's your budget?

[thelion]

Originally Posted by gouge

i dunno, i haven't heard enough all in one converters to make a call.

it all comes down to budget. for a little more money you get a decent step up.
lynx aurora 8 second hand.

what's your budget?

I'd rather not put out too much on converters, mostly because they have extraneous features that I don't really need for that price. I think I'm looking for around the $400 range for my converter with just 4 inputs and a good converter as the priority. I've decided to get something like the Sytek for my preamp needs, so they don't need to be XLR ins.

I'm thinking maybe the M Audio Profire 610 (although I don't really like the setup with two ins at the front and two at the back, but the converters have good reviews) or the Echo Audiofire 4 which has a nicer setup, a bit more money and good reviews, but I wonder if those reviews are outdated compared to the Profire.

Thanks again for the help.

[gouge]

just to play the devils advocate,

you will most likely find there is no advantage to buying quality outboard preamps and then sending them through cheap converter units with high noise spec and poor headroom.

maybe the all in one unit just took a step forward.

[Getdead]

The MOTU 4pre is a good choice for a good main interface. Even the 8pre. Just as a back up. If you get the 8pre there are 2 optical outs that you can go into an outboard converter of your choice. Which I would then suggest getting a MOTU 2408 mk3.
There is a thread on here called The Ultimate AD converter thread. The 2408 mk3 scored insanely high and everyone raves about it on there, so much that I bought one and am more than pleased with the results.
I have an 8pre as well. I do 8pre for my pre's then 2408 for my converters. The difference to me was night and day after I tracked drums. You can get a used 8pre on eBay for like 300 bucks. Then a used 2408 for like 400. That way you'd have pretty good pres, with top quality conversion.

My opinion on the pres for the 8pre and the majority of MOTU pres are that they do exactly what they are supposed to do. Boost the signal. There isn't much color at all in the pres, but more so a very clean sound. So I leave the "coloring" up to my plugs. I almost like having the cleanness of the pres because I have the option to color the tracks the way I want after the fact and not be stuck with a color that necessarily doesn't work on a particular track.

[popmann]

This is a simple cut and dried answer. If you can afford it, outboard preamps almost always trump that which is built into the "best" interfaces. Even modest ones. But, even if someone wants to debate that, it's still better to buy outboard. Why? Once you have and analog front end YOU are comfortable with, interfaces become absolutely disposable/interchangeable--which they are anyway.

As a guy with an "overdub" home studio, I have a small mic cab, stereo Millenia, La610, some Speck ASCTs...basically, I'm comfortable with the sound I can get ANALOG on anything I mic or DI here. So, now--I can buy whatever converter/interface has line ins and go to town. Or record to hardware like my AkaiDPS24...or a little Zoom and transfer into software to mix...any of the above, and I get slight variations on that sound I'm comfortable with. The client may send me a 96k project...or 44...or whatever--I just need something to digitize the sound I have.

If you buy say an Apollo and LOVE it's mic pres...what happens when you can't get FireWire and your computer doesn't have thunderbolt? Sure...you buy a card, right? But, what if you need 16x16 IO at 96k? SOL. so, now you have to give up the sound you're comfortable with and buy the IO you need...AND hope you can find something with the IO you need AND preamps you like as much. It's more expensive in the long haul, IME, than buying what you need/like analog and then you can use whatever IO suits your current computer and IO needs.

I could add a 2192 converter and use my old XP machine with its Maudio SPDIF card to track--and it would sound as good as anything else I plug it into. Or record into my Kronos. Or into the SPDIF of a Mac laptop. Whatever.

The equation changes if you record entire bands live and need say 12-16 mic preamps. Then, outboard gets to be HUGE money...and there's a more legit argument for whatever unit with 8-16 mic pres that just don't suck. Or better yet, and Onyx1640i so the band can monitor analog, too.

[thelion]

Just an update, because I appreciate everyone's input. I found a MOTU Traveler MkI that I've ordered used off of ebay for its large number of inputs, firewire, ability to expand inputs, size, compatibility with my Mac and decent converters and I plan later on looking further into preamps (Black Lion Audio, Sytek) and anything in the sub-$1000 range for 4 channels. I'm still looking for suggestions with that. If it helps, I'm recording mostly indiepop and no wave inspired music. There's a female alto vocalist, the drum kit has no kick or hi-hat (using a floor tom instead), bright vintage sounding guitar and DI bass. I was looking at the BLA 312a, though 4 of those is about $300 past my budget and while the Sytek appears to have great reviews I haven't heard any shootouts with it compared to other pres.
Cheers.

[Yummerz]

It's easier to get a good sound with nice pres, but it's not necessary. At this point, focusing on honing your engineering skills (to say nothing of writing and performance) is way more important than the relatively minor improvements you'll gain from a marginally better pre or interface. Your MOTU should be more than sufficient.

That said, I'd encourage you to keep an eye out for old Tascam and Yamaha mixers (wood panel 80s and 90s boards, not the newer Chinese made stuff you'll find in a guitar center), because they can have really meaty pres and EQs - especially charcterful for drums - and you can get great bargains on them.