Do you mix flat?

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Nerine

I.e.

When you are mixing a band or anything really, do you mix keeping a mind on additional eq's and everything that everyone will have on their playback device?
I was listening to some mixes that I completed today at work and I can't help but feel they sound slightly boxy when I listened to them at home on my monitors. When I applied media players rock EQ everything sounded a lot more balanced and quite pleasant again.

What sort of balance do you give your mixes??

I can't decide which is the best way.

I'm mixing predominantly on Genelec 1031a's and I can't say I am a massive fan of them. I don't think I have ever been totally happy with any mix I have done. Maybe that's the engineer in me though?!?
I find the 1031a's to be a quite sibilant and toppy speaker. A bit harsh maybe. They also don't seem to be that bassy. Putting on how much I like in the control room sometimes results in an overly bassy mix when listening on other sources.
Sometimes the Avantone mix cubes tell me a lot more about my mixes than the Genelecs. Especially when dealing with how much energy a source has in the centre. I find the overal balance of instruments to really pop out on the Avantones. For general tone shaping, the Genelecs are cool, but yeah. Quite harsh and trebley I find. I have also knocked a bit of top end off them with the dip switches on the back.

We have acoustic treatment in our control room and I just read the Genelec PDF that suggests -4dB of bass tilt and roll off when they are placed above the console.

That would make them sound even worse to me surely?
I'd add loads more bass right?

Does anyone else find the Genelecs to be a bit sizzle-y?
Maybe they're just the wrong speakers for me...

You should mix so that the end result translates well. If your end playback system is inherently tinny, making a mix that sounds full and with plenty of bass will mean a mix will be overbearing on a full resolution system.

So your mix should sound tinny on a tinny system, boxy on a boxy one, and great on anything flattering and true.

Easiest way to do this is to reference mixes you like, and listen to the way they translate. No, it's not easy!

1031s are bright but relatively unflattering. I like them, but I hate Krks and some love them. I'm also not fond of focals, and some love them. So you're not weird or out on a limb or anything by not liking genelecs.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by Nerine

Putting on how much I like in the control room sometimes results in an overly bassy mix when listening on other sources.

There is your problem. Think about that statement and re-evaluate your method of mixing.

[EricF]

Trying to anticipate - and adjust for - a particular kind of listening device or environment is a mistake. Most often, I've seen people asking about mixing to optimize MP3/earbud listening. The problem is that you'll most often end up with a mix that sounds like crap anywhere except that one specific situation.

I want my mix to translate equally (as much as I can) in ANY listening situation - studio monitors, high-end hi-fi, iPod, crappy computer speakers, car, single-speaker clock-radio, etc.

I wouldn't call it mixing "flat". I mix to what sounds "good" (to me) on an many systems as possible.

[RCM - Ronan]

One of the best tricks for solving this problem is spend a lot of time listening to tracks from other mixers that you think sound great on lots of systems, and then use those tracks as a guide for your own mixes. Just be prepared to be surprised what a wide range of balances you will find on great sounding successful records.

[Ohx]

How long have you used those speakers in that environment in the same state of treatment that it is currently?

[Nerine]

Originally Posted by Ohx

How long have you used those speakers in that environment in the same state of treatment that it is currently?

For about a year.

Although I listened to the mixes today at home in iTunes along with other records I know.
They were in spec. There were major releases that I liked the sound of less or found more harsh.
I think it was me being maybe too anal about everything. Whether it was just me or not but I thought a couple of Foos tracks sounded a bit thin and boxy afterwards.... Whether that's a good thing to say or not I don't know. I felt like Nickelback mixes had more depth and fullness, obviously, but I am definitely not ashamed of my work. It's in spec no doubt.

[beingmf]

Originally Posted by RCM - Ronan

Just be prepared to be surprised what a wide range of balances you will find on great sounding successful records.

[dkelley]

The first step EVERY engineer does when working in a new control room and/or new monitors in their existing room is to "learn" the monitors by listening repeatedly, over and over ad nauseum, to their standard reference material.

But if you listen to your reference material and dislike the sound overall in your control room, then you need to change your system playback eq PERMANENTLY and for all playback conditions, not within the mixdown stage of your next project.

your reference material should sound how you like it. add a dedicated eq after your daw/mixing desk before your monitors and increase the bass THERE or do whatever you want to the eq there. Become happy with your reference album playback so you can listen and enjoy it for hours and think that you would want to mix your own projects to sound like that.

NOW, mix your next project. do whatever you need WITHIN THE MIX (never again touching your outboard monitor eq that you carefully adjusted how you like).

This way your mixes should translate much better.

You were simply adding eq in your mix when you really should have added eq AFTER your mix (only to your monitors themselves) to change the overall sound of your system if you prefer to do it that way rather than just accepting and learning to embrace the frequency balance of your monitors.

I hope this helps! Technically there is nothing wrong with making your system sound however you like best as long as you know it inside out and can make your mixes translate really well like that. But any eq you make to your control room to make up for weak bass in monitors or whatever you feel is missing MUST be done only in the playback environment, NOT in the actual mix that will be released to other systems.

Cheers - enjoy - let me know how it goes for you :-)

[psycho_monkey]

Adding eq to monitors, apart from small amounts carefully calculated, is generally a bad idea.

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

Adding eq to monitors, apart from small amounts carefully calculated, is generally a bad idea.

interesting generalization. Considering the OP's problem, if he had added eq to the monitors while listening to his favorite reference tracks rather than adding it to his mix while making his mix sound nice and bass-strong as he likes, then he wouldn't have had any troubles the mixes would have translated better, and this thread wouldn't exist.

This is because he'd be mixing more neutrally compared to his reference recordings.

That is what it's all about after all.

However if he's actually working in a real facility that it charging money from clients then I think the OP should go back to the drawing board and learn the monitors properly.

I get the impression that the OP isn't that experienced, however, in which case it seems like my solution would solve the problem and make him happy with his current monitors.

I have to say that I have NEVER found genelecs to be bass shy in any way. But every setup is different!

Ideal or not, my solution would actually work, and probably would work instantly without any learning curve.

Oh... and I've also worked in MANY studios where eq was permanently added to the main mix monitors. Normally with the goal of being totally flat, not emphasizing bass, but either way, based on my professional experience it's surprisingly common - at least in serious project studios (I never bothered to ask in the bigger budget facilities).

cheers all

Don

[Nerine]

Originally Posted by dkelley

interesting generalization. Considering the OP's problem, if he had added eq to the monitors while listening to his favorite reference tracks rather than adding it to his mix while making his mix sound nice and bass-strong as he likes, then he wouldn't have had any troubles the mixes would have translated better, and this thread wouldn't exist.

This is because he'd be mixing more neutrally compared to his reference recordings.

That is what it's all about after all.

However if he's actually working in a real facility that it charging money from clients then I think the OP should go back to the drawing board and learn the monitors properly.

I get the impression that the OP isn't that experienced, however, in which case it seems like my solution would solve the problem and make him happy with his current monitors.

I have to say that I have NEVER found genelecs to be bass shy in any way. But every setup is different!

Ideal or not, my solution would actually work, and probably would work instantly without any learning curve.

Oh... and I've also worked in MANY studios where eq was permanently added to the main mix monitors. Normally with the goal of being totally flat, not emphasizing bass, but either way, based on my professional experience it's surprisingly common - at least in serious project studios (I never bothered to ask in the bigger budget facilities).

cheers all

Don

Way to sound condescending.

I have a fair dollop of experience with an ever expanding client list with repeat business from every act I've worked with.

I can quite happily add some EQ from the console to the mains. I'd sooner not though. Funnily enough I had experimented with all this a while back.
And I also said that I checked my tracks against others in my iTunes library and found them to be well in spec.
I was probably overthinking the whole thing. As I said.
The engineer in me was being way to anal about what I was doing and how I was mixing. Usually it's by instinct.
But yeah...

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by Nerine

Way to sound condescending.

I have a fair dollop of experience with an ever expanding client list with repeat business from every act I've worked with.

I can quite happily add some EQ from the console to the mains. I'd sooner not though. Funnily enough I had experimented with all this a while back.
And I also said that I checked my tracks against others in my iTunes library and found them to be well in spec.
I was probably overthinking the whole thing. As I said.
The engineer in me was being way to anal about what I was doing and how I was mixing. Usually it's by instinct.
But yeah...

Sorry - wasn't intended that way at all. My bad! Assumptions are always dangerous :-)

This is Low end theory and you asked questions that pros typically know the answer to in a forum section that is typically aimed at non-pros or certainly low budget people (who typically aren't professionally recording others).

Hence the assumptions.

No harm intended. However I do stand by my suggestion since (edit: I feel that) it would solve your problem.

Cheers
Don

[Liquid360]

One trick is to use multiple monitors with a switcher. Flip between the Genelecs, Tannoys and NS-10s... Come to a resolve that sounds best between them all.

[drumdrum]

EQing monitors won't solve the issue that to me sounds like its the OPs room.

I suspect a null area in the base at your mixing position sering as how you are boosting the bass. Unless you room is completely anechoic, or at least heavily treated (over 90% coverage), you will get room modes. Its inevitable. But the state of your room will determine how bad they are.
EQ can be used to help TRANSLATE your mixes better across systems, but it won't fix your room.

Look at IK multimedia ARC system. Not a replacement for treatment, but can be quite effective in tandem with.

+1 on reference mixes, though try not to rely on them too heavily. Find your own flavour of the sound if you can.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by dkelley

interesting generalization. Considering the OP's problem, if he had added eq to the monitors while listening to his favorite reference tracks rather than adding it to his mix while making his mix sound nice and bass-strong as he likes, then he wouldn't have had any troubles the mixes would have translated better, and this thread wouldn't exist.

This is because he'd be mixing more neutrally compared to his reference recordings.

That is what it's all about after all.

However if he's actually working in a real facility that it charging money from clients then I think the OP should go back to the drawing board and learn the monitors properly.

I get the impression that the OP isn't that experienced, however, in which case it seems like my solution would solve the problem and make him happy with his current monitors.

I have to say that I have NEVER found genelecs to be bass shy in any way. But every setup is different!

Ideal or not, my solution would actually work, and probably would work instantly without any learning curve.

Oh... and I've also worked in MANY studios where eq was permanently added to the main mix monitors. Normally with the goal of being totally flat, not emphasizing bass, but either way, based on my professional experience it's surprisingly common - at least in serious project studios (I never bothered to ask in the bigger budget facilities).

cheers all

Don

Not really. You can't correct a time domain problem in the frequency domain. If genelecs are bass shy, it's either in the room or your monitors are f**ked...

Eqing monitors should really only be done if you really know what you're doing.

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

Not really. You can't correct a time domain problem in the frequency domain. If genelecs are bass shy, it's either in the room or your monitors are f**ked...

Eqing monitors should really only be done if you really know what you're doing.

Good point about the room. I second adding ik multimedia arc system, but if there is a major issue with a bass null in the room then even arc won't help it.

I got the impression that his control room was pretty good already and that it was his personal taste to hear more bass. If so then, ,once again, my solution is the correct way to increase his audible bass so it translates correctly rather than how he does it now which he's demonstrated translates as bass heavy mixes.

Bass heavy mixes are the problem? Increase the bass in your monitoring system is the simple instant solution and requires no learning.... Instant gratification.

Cheers.

[Nerine]

The issue really is that I just need to (even now) get more comfortable with the monitors.
Although I find them to be inconsistent.
All the work I have done on them sounds good, but the Genelecs just really sounded off the last few days.
I don't know if my ears had a rest as I had a few days off.
I killed some top end so I'm not under compensating there. I also prefer slightly less bright mixes but as I'm working commercially, I've got to be in spec. I just remember these monitors sounding slightly richer when i started using them. That's all.
I am monitoring quite near field and have treatment in the room.
The Avantones tell me quite a bit more about a mix than the Genelecs sometimes. Also, vocals always sound very quiet on these monitors.
Seems everything center gets a little attenuated almost.
Then switch over to the Avantones and then bam. Vocals and snare ahoy.
I determine the balance of instruments with the Avantones.
The sounds and tones of instruments, Especially if I have to notch eq anything, with the Gennys.
I think what it is, is the 1031a is a very clinical speaker.
It has a lot of top end to my ear.
Therefore it naturally makes the low end to appear less forceful or prominent.
I import reference material into every session I do anyway just as a measure to make sure I'm calibrated!

What surprised me the most was Genelec suggested, in their PDF file for these monitors that you use -4dB of bass tilt and -4dB of bass roll off too.
There would be no low end at all then!!
That is the recommended setting for console bridge. Which is roughly where they are situated.
The room I am working in has treatment on the back wall, above the console, as in my avatar, and bass traps in the rear corners of the room. The monitors also sit on Auralex foam.

[dkelley]

at least you have and enjoy working wiht the auratones! While I personally think they're over-rated, sometimes they're just the ticket.

Genelecs typically have lots of bass output. it's very odd. While I feel that putting monitors on auralex is technically less than ideal, I can't imagine it doing anything drastically bad like that to the sound of the monitors.

It honestly sounds to me like the person who pointed out room nulls is right. Like the genelecs are poorly positioned. For example, typically monitors should be no closer than 1 foot (ish) and no further than 3 feet (ish) from the wall behind them (and the walls beside them of course) to be free of the most obnoxious bass null problems. Do your break from that layout? Many people have monitors TOO far from the wall behind them which does reduce bass and also brings some drastic room nulls into the more audible bass response range.