Is my cheap mixer degrading my sound?

[Joniverse]

I use a Phonic 1002 (really cheap mixer) to sum my keyboards when playing live. My setup consists of 2 keyboards plus one sampler and one iPod. I only use the line inputs. It's rarely more then two sources sounding at once so the "summing quality factor" shouldn't be very important. The mixer has no noice that I can hear. I really like it cause it it so compact and has all the inputs and features that I need.

BUT, would my keyboards SOUND better thru a more hi end mixer? I might consider something like an Allen & Heath ZED-10 (also because of internal power supply and balanced XLR outputs so I won't even need line boxes), but would it actually sound better?

[olliejohn]

It's probably degrading the sound a little, but unless you're recording than I wouldn't be too worried. The fact of the matter is, that when you're playing live that mixer is not doing anywhere near as much damage as the venues inevitably crappy PA and/or sound engineer, not to mention the probably less than ideal acoustics and room full of people making noise.
If you've got money to burn than upgrading will only do good, but it's probably not 100% neccesary.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

yes, a cheap mixer will degrade the sound.

[Matt Syson]

Hi
Probably sounds as good as a 'vintage Neve' that hasn't been maintained. It will actually depend on exactly what you are doing with it. In the context of 'live performance' and the assorted problems there, save your money.
Matt S

[erikdrink]

Lots of great music has been made with a cheap console!

[dugan03]

if just for playing live, i'd imagine that the degree to which a cheap mixer degrades your sound is far less than the degree to which the playback system (i.e. the amplification and loudspeakers, p.a., whatever) is distorting it.

better to have a cheap piece of gear that you can knock around and replace if need be, imo.

[Joniverse]

I mostly play in Sweden, good venues and we tour with a really good sound engineer, rarely the crappy pubs with crappy pa. If my keyboards sounds worse thru my cheap mixer i will replace it, but i need a small one cause i want everything in front of me on top of my main keyboard and i cant find one as small and with all the features i need. The Allen & Heath ZED-10 seems to be my only option so far.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

what features do you need?

[gravyface]

Originally Posted by Joniverse

I mostly play in Sweden, good venues and we tour with a really good sound engineer, rarely the crappy pubs with crappy pa. If my keyboards sounds worse thru my cheap mixer i will replace it, but i need a small one cause i want everything in front of me on top of my main keyboard and i cant find one as small and with all the features i need. The Allen & Heath ZED-10 seems to be my only option so far.

If you have a top notch engineer and sound system, why not just run it into the house board during warm-up/sound checks and see if you notice an improvement? Unless your mixer is falling apart or was left out in the rain over night, I really can't see it having that much of an impact in a likely horrible-sounding bar venue with the crowd noise.

[Joniverse]

I just found the ART splitmix4 http://artproaudio.com/artcessories/...uct/splitmix4/

It seems to be the end of my problems, or am i missing something? Its 4 stereo channels, passive mixing. Are there any downsides to passive mixing?

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

what about the Rane SM-82?

[misterlong]

Originally Posted by gravyface

If you have a top notch engineer and sound system, why not just run it into the house board during warm-up/sound checks and see if you notice an improvement? Unless your mixer is falling apart or was left out in the rain over night, I really can't see it having that much of an impact in a likely horrible-sounding bar venue with the crowd noise.

+1! give your engineer the job back! thats what you pay him for!

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by misterlong

+1! give your engineer the job back! thats what you pay him for!

I like it when the guy on stage has control of his own monitoring, so I like it when he has his own mixer. I still take the keys via DI prior to his monitor mixer to FOH. I mix FOH. He mixes so that he is comfortable with what he hears on stage.

[misterlong]

Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome

I like it when the guy on stage has control of his own monitoring, so I like it when he has his own mixer. I still take the keys via DI prior to his monitor mixer to FOH. I mix FOH. He mixes so that he is comfortable with what he hears on stage.

That makes perfect sense; to have control over monitor levels. Mixing prior to FOH mix to me doesn't.

mais, à chacun son goût

long

[Kaoz]

Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome

I like it when the guy on stage has control of his own monitoring, so I like it when he has his own mixer. I still take the keys via DI prior to his monitor mixer to FOH. I mix FOH. He mixes so that he is comfortable with what he hears on stage.

Very true.

I think here though is that the engineer is as good as the OP days, surely he would notice a degradation in quality of it was there to be noticed.

OP - I wouldn't go chasing phantom problems. Prove that there is a problem before worrying about fixing it.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by Kaoz

Very true.

I think here though is that the engineer is as good as the OP days, surely he would notice a degradation in quality of it was there to be noticed.

how? why would he know the patches, and why would he want to step up to the band and criticize the tonal choices that they have selected? As a FOH guy I would be very uncomfortable intruding on the artistic turf of the band and unless something was radically wrong I would think that it was a choice, not a problem.

[Kaoz]

Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome

how? why would he know the patches, and why would he want to step up to the band and criticize the tonal choices that they have selected? As a FOH guy I would be very uncomfortable intruding on the artistic turf of the band and unless something was radically wrong I would think that it was a choice, not a problem.

Is pretty simple.

Run one of the keyboards through FOH before it goes to the keyboardists sub mix. Have a listen. Then run it through the sub mix, have a listen. If the degradation in quality is noticeable, (and if it's significant it will definitely be noticeable) then there's a problem and the OP should look at a new mixer.

It's got nothing to do with knowing the patches or criticizing sounds - it's about signal quality, which is right in the engineers ballpark.

I agree - I wouldn't think of telling a band that their sounds or arrangements suck. But they would rightly expect me to tell them if there was a problem with the signal they were sending me.

Edit - just realized how poorly worded my first post was. Sorry for any confusion.

[GZsound]

The odds are great that in a live situation, it would be nearly impossible to tell the difference between an inexpensive mixer and a pro level board.

Unless the mixer is somehow damaged or has bad parts that could create noise or distortion, there is no reason to not use an inexpensive one.

I always sent my keyboards direct to FOH and had a monitor return for my own monitor system that utilized an inexpensive mixer.