Yet Another What Interface to get: Under $500 Edition

[gravyface]

I'm really struggling to make a decision on a DAW setup that'll last me a long time; I don't want to have to replace what I have as I'm (slowly) improving my mic collection, room treatment, and abilities.

Right now I have a Tascam M308 into a Delta 44 into Reaper on a Win7 64-bit Core 2 Duo machine with 8 GB RAM.

The Tascam is just a 8 channel preamp; I don't do any mixing OTB with it at all and the EQs are bypassed on every channel.

I'm under no illusions as to the sound quality of my current setup as my ignorance has no bounds at this point in my recording "career" (I have a day job; that's never going to change. I'm doing this for fun; I'm mainly recording jam sessions and rehearsals at my house, but there's opportunities to do some singer/songwriter stuff and vocal groups as I gain more experience). Having said that, just because I don't know any difference now, why buy something that'll be disappointing when I do notice?

From what I've read, the quality of your recording goes roughly in this order:

- talent
- room
- mics/mic placement
- preamps
- DA/AD conversion

With this in mind, I think $500 is plenty to spend on an interface that:

- has 8 analog inputs and outputs
- has ADAT expandability (or other chaining/syncing ability) to 16 inputs
- has preamps I won't grow to dislike, or can be bypassed, or has no preamps at all (if the latter, I will either add a better analog mixer for my go-to preamps and/or add to my collection of higher-end preamps)
- has MIDI
- is future-proof (in order of life expectancy, I would rank USB the best, followed by Firewire or PCIe; lastly PCI). Want at least 5 years of usefulness out of the interface.

Using this as my interface guide, I've "shortlisted" (doesn't seem very short, hence the esploded head) the following; prices are approximations based on eBay, classified, etc.:

- Delta 1010 ($200; highlights: solid AD/DA conversion; cheapest)
- Tascam US-2000 ($250; highlights: 16 analog inputs(!) and USB 2.0)
- RME Multiface 1 ($250; highlights: high regards on GS for quality drivers, AD/DA conversion, and support; TotalMix is supposed to be very sophisticated)
- Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 ($419; highlights: Focusrite pres)
- Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL ($499; highlights: eBay bundle comes with two AT condenser mics; USB 2.0)
- Mackie Onyx Blackbird ($499; highlights: Onyx pres)

Thoughts:

- Specs on the Tascam US-2000 page don't mention any audio specifications (gain, THD, etc.) which kind of scares me, especially at that price.

- PCI is a bit frightening. I know my current PC is fine, but there will come a time when I want to upgrade it. Probably could go Quad Core to squeeze more life out of it, but unless Ivy Bridge (the next one after Sandy Bridge) remedies the PCI problems that everyone's complaining about with PCI audio interfaces and Core i5/7 machines, PCI is a dead end (if it wasn't already).

- Thought about the Onyx 1640i but having a mixer in front of you that can't control the DAW is kind of a let down. If you could use it as a control surface it would be worth tripling my budget as this would be something that I couldn't imagine outgrowing.

- Saving $250 by going with the RME or the Delta 1010 could go towards more room treatment or microphones, both of which would make a greater difference in the quality of my recordings in my opinion.

Questions:

- I realize everyone has their favorites and their biases, but what was it that helped you decide on the right interface? Is there a feature I'm not thinking of?

- How important are the specs? I have not bothered (out of sheer laziness) to do a line-by-line comparison of audio specifications of each interface as I'm assuming there's going to be some subtle objective differences in gain, noise, headroom, etc. but also alot of subjective differences as far as preamp color, warmth, etc. Any one jump out more than the other?

- What's everyone doing for control surfaces? I can't mix with a mouse; I just can't do it. I have two big monitors (24 and a 22") which is great, but having to hunt and peck the dials on the plugins really detracts from my ability to focus on the results of my actions. I want faders, pots, and buttons right in front of me. Doesn't seem like there's alot of control surface/audio interface combos out there (surprisingly). I know Tascam made some low-end ones and Mackie makes a Universal Control, but seems odd to me that none of the other (numerous) players out there haven't put two and two together.

- Are there any interfaces I'm missing? I know the Steinbergs, MOTUs, etc. are not on the list, but I didn't see anything under $500. If there's any "zomg! you HAVE to consider an ABC by XYZ" please chime in.

If you're still reading this, I appreciate it. And for the record, yes, I've done alot of searching/reading, but I didn't see any one thread that seemed definitive or asked the same kind of questions/put the same amount of thought into it. Who knows, maybe this will get stickied.

Looking forward to hearing from you, Slutz!

[rafferty]

Hi i own the focusrite saffire pro 40 and is a great interface, pre's sound really good for the price, the best thing is that Hi Freq are not harsh so you can stack up tracks w/o problem. it is a LITTLE BIT congested in the mid lows but when i say a little bit is just a tiny bit, something that you can take care of with corrective eq. the mid low congestion is when you stack up vocals, but i repeat, a little corrective eq and you're good to go. From all of them i'll go with the focus, because they have the best pre's from your list! hope this helps you a little.

[azazel]

I've recently gone through a very similar (sometimes confusing and overwhelming) process to yours, the only notable difference being my number of required inputs (2-4 suits me fine) and a slightly higher budget. So I have an idea as to how you may be feeling.

Unfortunately, my new system won't arrive until the end of this week at the earliest, so I can't offer any experiential knowledge to help inform you at this point.

However, the first thing I will say, is that it doesn't appear that low latency is big on your list of priorities. I suggest that it should be (to save you headaches further down the road) and that as such, bearing in mind your additional requirements, you should ponder the notion of saving up for a little longer and going down the RME route (fulfills the stable drivers requirement, plus added bonus of acceptable, if not "good, some say great" inbuilt preamps).

RME excels in latency tests...

SOS: Audio Interfaces, Latency & Twisted Tools

Results: here

You could obviously get something along the required lines with a second hand Multiface I, though I'd suggest paying a little more for the Multiface II, due to the various upgrades in performance compared with its predecessor.

RME Multiface II (see changelist)

Another option would be the Fireface 800, or if you want to really cut latency out of the picture all together, go the separated PCIe route and get a HDSP 9632 or 9652, an outboard RME AD/DA converter and some nice outboard preamps.

I know this immediately sends your budget off into the clouds, but if you're looking for future-proofing, I think it's at least worth considering.

Secondly, I concur with your wary approach to the old PCI route. I was fairly close to getting an M-Audio 1010, but in the end decided against it for much the same reasons as you stated.

This decision was also partially informed by the fact that the average prices for most second hand 1010 interfaces were sometimes not all that lower than a new RME Babyface (which is what I ended up getting, due to my lack of need for tons of analog inputs, but requirements for low latency, with the very rarely used, though useful option of mobile recording etc.)

I know it's a difficult decision. That's exemplified in the myriad of threads just like this (mine included), which end up being unresolved and inconclusive. I've vaguely attempted to establish some consensus in relation to this topic, but it's a difficult and at times, contentious topic for discussion.

[mixer898]

Yeah, another vote for Focusrite Saffire Pro 40. I am also a happy owner of this audio interface. It has around 8 preamp inputs with lots of outputs and line inputs which for me is sufficient and can power all of your studio needs.

It works perfectly with Windows XP SP3 and it has a very easy to use mixer control. It can also be used as stand alone (in a live band scenario without a computer attached).

[College_Records]

Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 is probably the best bang for your buck under $500. Other than that, I'd sugget a used Rme Murtiface with the pres of your choice. (i like the focusrite octopre and it has adat capabilities). pay attention to the 192hz conversion (like jumping from a 10 megapixel camera to 20 mega pixels; it really does make a differance in overall quality. If you can manage it, strech for a rme babyface plus an adat strip OR a used RME fireface 800 has great everything and leaves room for expansion

... buuuttttt i know you're probably not made of money soooooo, if you just wanna get running go with the Focusrite Saffire Pro 40. It'll get you in the game.

[azazel]

I'd just like to weigh in again and ask those who are recommending the Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 if there are no longer any considerable issues with drivers / reliability etc.? I ask out of curiosity because I've read a multitude of threads, articles, etc. highlighting problems with this interface in this particular area. Some of them date back to 2009, so perhaps this issue has been resolved with updated drivers.

[College_Records]

Originally Posted by azazel

I'd just like to weigh in again and ask those who are recommending the Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 if there are no longer any considerable issues with drivers / reliability etc.? I ask out of curiosity because I've read a multitude of threads, articles, etc. highlighting problems with this interface in this particular area. Some of them date back to 2009, so perhaps this issue has been resolved with updated drivers.

It's pretty solid, not RME quality, but very solid for the price point. Most of the driver issues happen when you use 2 pro 40's in dual link mode ~ focusrite is still working out the kinks for this ~ but by themselves they are pretty gosh darn solid.

Source: I called focusrite directly a while back when I was interested in a pro 40

[Fingerpicker]

The SoundOnSound review of the Saffire Pro 40 says that they're not compatible with Pro Tools, is that right? Can't be surely?

[gravyface]

Originally Posted by azazel

I've recently gone through a very similar (sometimes confusing and overwhelming) process to yours, the only notable difference being my number of required inputs (2-4 suits me fine) and a slightly higher budget. So I have an idea as to how you may be feeling.

Unfortunately, my new system won't arrive until the end of this week at the earliest, so I can't offer any experiential knowledge to help inform you at this point.

However, the first thing I will say, is that it doesn't appear that low latency is big on your list of priorities. I suggest that it should be (to save you headaches further down the road) and that as such, bearing in mind your additional requirements, you should ponder the notion of saving up for a little longer and going down the RME route (fulfills the stable drivers requirement, plus added bonus of acceptable, if not "good, some say great" inbuilt preamps).

RME excels in latency tests...

SOS: Audio Interfaces, Latency & Twisted Tools

Results: here

You could obviously get something along the required lines with a second hand Multiface I, though I'd suggest paying a little more for the Multiface II, due to the various upgrades in performance compared with its predecessor.

RME Multiface II (see changelist)

Another option would be the Fireface 800, or if you want to really cut latency out of the picture all together, go the separated PCIe route and get a HDSP 9632 or 9652, an outboard RME AD/DA converter and some nice outboard preamps.

I know this immediately sends your budget off into the clouds, but if you're looking for future-proofing, I think it's at least worth considering.

Secondly, I concur with your wary approach to the old PCI route. I was fairly close to getting an M-Audio 1010, but in the end decided against it for much the same reasons as you stated.

This decision was also partially informed by the fact that the average prices for most second hand 1010 interfaces were sometimes not all that lower than a new RME Babyface (which is what I ended up getting, due to my lack of need for tons of analog inputs, but requirements for low latency, with the very rarely used, though useful option of mobile recording etc.)

I know it's a difficult decision. That's exemplified in the myriad of threads just like this (mine included), which end up being unresolved and inconclusive. I've vaguely attempted to establish some consensus in relation to this topic, but it's a difficult and at times, contentious topic for discussion.

- I didn't consider latency as I figured that with modern processors and my somewhat older list of interfaces, there wouldn't be any issues; that SoS article was pretty eye-opening though, but I couldn't imagine running more than ~24-30 concurrent multi-band compressors in Reaper.

- RME does seem to be leading the way though in quality/latency and it looks like the HDSPe PCIe card supports the older Multiface 1 and 2, which means I could get a Multiface 1 now and when required, go with a HDSPe when I upgrade my DAW in a few years. Question: I'm assuming that the AD/DA conversion happens on the PCI card internals, not on the breakout box?

[azazel]

Originally Posted by gravyface

- I didn't consider latency as I figured that with modern processors and my somewhat older list of interfaces, there wouldn't be any issues; that SoS article was pretty eye-opening though, but I couldn't imagine running more than ~24-30 concurrent multi-band compressors in Reaper.

- RME does seem to be leading the way though in quality/latency and it looks like the HDSPe PCIe card supports the older Multiface 1 and 2, which means I could get a Multiface 1 now and when required, go with a HDSPe when I upgrade my DAW in a few years. Question: I'm assuming that the AD/DA conversion happens on the PCI card internals, not on the breakout box?

Unless I'm totally mistaken, there are no AD/DA converters onboard the HDSP 9632/9652 PCIe cards. That's kind of the whole point of them; they're built to handle the DAW interfacing role and nothing else, allowing for the option of higher grade outboard AD/DA converters. RME offer a number of options in this area.

RME - Converters

As to the notion of interfacing a Multiface I/II with the HDSP 9652/9632, I'd have to do more research before categorically stating such a thing is possible. Though I'll make a point of returning to this thread if/when I have such knowledge. (And I'd readily welcome anyone with such experiences to chime in.)

As for latency, those figures are indeed pretty striking eh? There's not much doubt in my mind that with the right kind of computer setup, an HDSP 9652/9632, with outboard AD/DA converters would achieve the kind of low latency performance that you'll be able to completely forget about (it is that good, according to experiential knowledge gleaned off others in this so called "low end" of the industry).

Having said all that, I'm definitely with you on your approach to saving a little money now, which you can devote to acoustic treatment in the interim, allowing you to get on with your current projects, whilst you save up for a slightly higher grade RME setup.

Having looked through your requirements again, I'm fairly sure you could get away with going down the Multiface I/II route at this point, without too many problems (potentially the least on your shortlist of interfaces).

It's got enough inputs to suit your needs, it essentially fulfills your requirements and there are little-to-no issues in the reliability area, though it's obviously worth researching this a little further before diving into your purchase. (I'll happily offer the limited help I'm able to provide in this regard, if you need.)

It's also worth keeping tabs on the resale value of the Multiface I/II, should you discover that you need to replace it with a different outboard component if/when you upgrade to the HDSP 9652/9632 with outboard AD/DA in future. I'm fairly sure the used models go for close to RRP (at least the Multiface II), but it's worth researching in any case.

[RonGherkins]

Originally Posted by Fingerpicker

The SoundOnSound review of the Saffire Pro 40 says that they're not compatible with Pro Tools, is that right? Can't be surely?

They are incorrect (or outdated), I will say that mix control doesn't play as nice with pro tools as I thought it would under win 7 though.

Here is a good resource for those types of questions for those who don't know Pro Tools Hardware Checker - AIR Users Blog

[gravyface]

Originally Posted by azazel

Unless I'm totally mistaken, there are no AD/DA converters onboard the HDSP 9632/9652 PCIe cards. That's kind of the whole point of them; they're built to handle the DAW interfacing role and nothing else, allowing for the option of higher grade outboard AD/DA converters. RME offer a number of options in this area.

RME - Converters

As to the notion of interfacing a Multiface I/II with the HDSP 9652/9632, I'd have to do more research before categorically stating such a thing is possible. Though I'll make a point of returning to this thread if/when I have such knowledge. (And I'd readily welcome anyone with such experiences to chime in.)

As for latency, those figures are indeed pretty striking eh? There's not much doubt in my mind that with the right kind of computer setup, an HDSP 9652/9632, with outboard AD/DA converters would achieve the kind of low latency performance that you'll be able to completely forget about (it is that good, according to experiential knowledge gleaned off others in this so called "low end" of the industry).

Having said all that, I'm definitely with you on your approach to saving a little money now, which you can devote to acoustic treatment in the interim, allowing you to get on with your current projects, whilst you save up for a slightly higher grade RME setup.

Having looked through your requirements again, I'm fairly sure you could get away with going down the Multiface I/II route at this point, without too many problems (potentially the least on your shortlist of interfaces).

It's got enough inputs to suit your needs, it essentially fulfills your requirements and there are little-to-no issues in the reliability area, though it's obviously worth researching this a little further before diving into your purchase. (I'll happily offer the limited help I'm able to provide in this regard, if you need.)

It's also worth keeping tabs on the resale value of the Multiface I/II, should you discover that you need to replace it with a different outboard component if/when you upgrade to the HDSP 9652/9632 with outboard AD/DA in future. I'm fairly sure the used models go for close to RRP (at least the Multiface II), but it's worth researching in any case.

From all the literature I've read, the HDSPe supports the Multiface 1/2, FireFace, etc. as it still uses the firewire interface with the RME proprietary protocol. Pretty impressive, I'd say, and speaks volumes as to the kind of company they are; so many other vendors would use a new card as an excuse to force an upgrade on their customers. This way I can get a PCI Multiface 1 or 2 now, and know that other AD/DA converters or cards are an upgrade possibility.

[College_Records]

Originally Posted by Fingerpicker

The SoundOnSound review of the Saffire Pro 40 says that they're not compatible with Pro Tools, is that right? Can't be surely?

This is incorrect. They are fully compatible.

[azazel]

Originally Posted by gravyface

From all the literature I've read, the HDSPe supports the Multiface 1/2, FireFace, etc. as it still uses the firewire interface with the RME proprietary protocol. Pretty impressive, I'd say, and speaks volumes as to the kind of company they are; so many other vendors would use a new card as an excuse to force an upgrade on their customers. This way I can get a PCI Multiface 1 or 2 now, and know that other AD/DA converters or cards are an upgrade possibility.

Very glad to hear it. Thanks for the clarification on this. Duly noted for my own future projects as well.

[Fingerpicker]

Originally Posted by College_Records

This is incorrect. They are fully compatible.

Thanks for the info, you too RonGherkins.

still trying to make my mind up whether to go the PT or LogicPro route when I buy my new iMac.

[FreD_BeaR]

Originally Posted by Fingerpicker

Thanks for the info, you too RonGherkins.

still trying to make my mind up whether to go the PT or LogicPro route when I buy my new iMac.

I'd Definitely go Pro Tools man. They do the same thing for the most part, but Pro Tools is industry standard and not only that but Logic is now discontinued. I have not used Logic 9 however, this is coming from experience with Logic 8. Logic is a good program don't get me wrong, I think once you learn how to use either you will like it.

[College_Records]

Originally Posted by Fingerpicker

Thanks for the info, you too RonGherkins.

still trying to make my mind up whether to go the PT or LogicPro route when I buy my new iMac.

Try the demos and watch youtube videos of the workflow. Pick the daw with the features you like. I'm a pc and I love cubase - so much that I'm selling my license of protools 9. PM me if you decide to go that route and/or you'd just like a copy of protools 9 for cheap. you'll need an ilok account to transfer the licence electronically, but i'm sure you probably already have that from other software.

[Fingerpicker]

Originally Posted by College_Records

Try the demos and watch youtube videos of the workflow. Pick the daw with the features you like. I'm a pc and I love cubase - so much that I'm selling my license of protools 9. PM me if you decide to go that route and/or you'd just like a copy of protools 9 for cheap. you'll need an ilok account to transfer the licence electronically, but i'm sure you probably already have that from other software.

Nope, don't have that.

Currently got Reaper on a laptop that's slowly dying. Have wanted an iMac for a long time and hear that PT is pretty solid on the Mac. Will be recording guitar, vocals and midi. Thought Logic looked pretty good but am now massively put off by the fact that apparently it's being discontinued...

[College_Records]

Originally Posted by Fingerpicker

Nope, don't have that.

Currently got Reaper on a laptop that's slowly dying. Have wanted an iMac for a long time and hear that PT is pretty solid on the Mac. Will be recording guitar, vocals and midi. Thought Logic looked pretty good but am now massively put off by the fact that apparently it's being discontinued...

I was unaware it was being discontinued. macs are overpriced for what they are anyways though; you can get 3 pc's with the same components for the price tag of a single mac. I'd go with a used dedicated pc and then invest in your 1) AD/DA conversion, monitors, and room treatment.

Here's a budget friendly rock solid set up I've recommended to several other people and they've loved it:

If you're only doing 1 to 2 tracks at a time, just snag an RME babyface. It has super clean, smooth pres like the grace m101 (the number one bestselling single channel pre on the market). The AD/DA conversion is state of the art and the expandability though the breakout cable has crazy capabilities if you ever wanna start recording full bands. It sounds better than an apogee duet and quite possibly the grace m101 too. Plus you get 2 channels for only $700 usd!!! Pick one up used and use the rest of your dough to buy:

1) a $50 referance mic and... (keep reading)
2) $200 of room treatment (owens corning 703 or rockwool) to "Tune your room". I'm guessing you already have a decent set of monitors; room treatment will really help you hear what the music actually sounds like and they are excellent for guitars and vocal booths too!
3) $60-90 for three used mogami gold cables off ebay for your mic and monitors
4) $200-$$$$$$$$ The mic(s) of your choice...

For vocals: Blue bluebird, Rode NT2-A Studio Solution, Mojave Audio MA-200, or Miktek CV4. akg 414

For guitar consider: a sm57, sm81, ksm32, akg 214, Avantone Audio CK-1, or the blue baby bottle.

Note: I have a Fireface 800 and the conversion and preamps on the babyface are leaps and bounds better.

Here's a link to a girl on youtube who uses the babyface for everything. She's using an sm58 beta on vocals with the babyface pres and a blue bluebird as a room mic. It's QUALITY. And you can do the same.
J Rabbit - Thank you for the music (Cover) - YouTube

Don't save up an extra 800 dollars for an a bunch of features you don't really need. Optimize your studio. Optimize your results.

Here's the original thread:
Audio interference in the gear pyramid

Oh and if you want I'll give you my version of protools 9 for $200. It's just collecting dust as I'm a happy cubase user.

[Fingerpicker]

Such a mass of information to process. Will need a while to look at all these things you're mentioned. Thanks though! The babyface looks great actually. Never been attracted to the breakout boxes due to the mess

fyi: I'll be recording acoustic guitar and possibly electric too but straight into the input, not with an amp.

Also, I should mention I have no room treatment (rented house), no monitors (sennheisers HD280s) and a sm57 and Stagg LDC.

[sacredheart]

Originally Posted by FreD_BeaR

I'd Definitely go Pro Tools man. They do the same thing for the most part, but Pro Tools is industry standard and not only that but Logic is now discontinued. I have not used Logic 9 however, this is coming from experience with Logic 8. Logic is a good program don't get me wrong, I think once you learn how to use either you will like it.

Whaaat? Do you have an source for that? I thought they only discontinued the boxed versions, and continue with online sales.

[College_Records]

Originally Posted by Fingerpicker

Such a mass of information to process. Will need a while to look at all these things you're mentioned. Thanks though! The babyface looks great actually. Never been attracted to the breakout boxes due to the mess

fyi: I'll be recording acoustic guitar and possibly electric too but straight into the input, not with an amp.

Also, I should mention I have no room treatment (rented house), no monitors (sennheisers HD280s) and a sm57 and Stagg LDC.

1) It's taken me years and several thousands of dollars in mistakes to figure all this out.

2) The breakout cables make the RME portable and they aren't too bulky

3) You're sm57 will sound killer matched for basically anything with the open clean rme pres. You'd probably be able to use it as a vocal mic too. I myself love the beta57 and they are't too much different (the beta is hotter and has a more focused pickup pattern). Any LDC should give you a nice open room noise, but if your room sounds like crap, a carefully picked dynamic mic will kick the snot out of it.

4) YOU ABSOLUTELY NEED MONITORS. Bass frequencies have a HUGE impact on your mix. I have the sennheisers (their good) but they can't hold a match to focals or a decent pair of yamahas. m auido bx5a's will get you an ok mix for laptop speakers. They're bright as heck with mid range detail, if you get your mix to sound good on yamaha's it'll sound prety decent on anything (yams sound like crap all the time), the focals are audiophile state of the art monitors~ you'll be steppin into the big leagues. I've owned all 3. Kept the focals...

5. Then you're probably mixing in a box shaped, sheetrock room so an easy way to get rid of reflections (nasty sound wave build up) is to absorb it with general building materials - none of these bed comforter or foam gimmicks. If you want your mixes to be accurate, if you wanna track instruments and vocals in a good decent sounding space, If you wanna make every single piece of gear you own sound at least 3x better, buy the fugly 703 or rockwool, spay adhesive a layer of burlap on them and place them or hang them by eye hooks in the corners of your rooms. This is by far the best spot for them and is insanely cost efficient.

6. Room acoustics are your best friend, they're not sexy, but a good room increases your accuracy and will yield make the rest of your gear work at it's full potential. You know those accurate reference monitors you hypothetically just bought? Yeah, um they're not really gonna be that useful until you treat your room. Every room sounds different - lecture halls, bedrooms, closets - they all have different buildups of sound waves (aka room modes). Certain frequencies - say 200hz, a low bass tone) will build up in the corners and sound +4 to+10 db louder!!!! depending on where your ears are in the room. Your hypothetical speakers ain't worth sh*t if this is the case and you might as well go back to headphones because at least you'll get the highs and mids in the ballpark with those.... bass is important though: you feel bass through you're entire body. If the bass is off you'll deffinetly notice. you're kinda throwing darts in the dark if your speakers don't cover these frequencies. When you're finally satisfied with you're mix, you'll bring it to your car and more than likely 1) either the bass won't be there at all or you'll be driving your speakers too hard and the'll make a sort of farting sound as it thumps. Your acoustic and electic guitar do have a lot of bass in them. Even your vocals will go down to 80hz. You need to get the bass right in your room before you make any hit records.

7. AD/DA conversion is like the megapixels of a camera. The more khz/s the more resolution, accuracy, detail, and a better representation you'll have of the source. This is up their next to acoustic treatment.

Conclusion: I know you're probably a pretty talented guy and you probably wanna buy some eye catching expensive equipment because you're certain it'll make you sound pro.
.....It won't there are a lot of bases to cover. this is a system and if the brain of your system (DA/AD conversion, Acoustic properties of your room, and whatever headphones or monitors your gagging everything by is poor quality) it's gonna sound like poor quality.

It's like plugging in a $5000 custom les paul (realy f*cken nice guitar) into a $40 battery powered cube amp. you're sacrificing the actual sound for something that looks pretty.

If your gonna spend $800, you better spend it where it counts. PM me if you get confused/frustrated. I made the same exact mistake you're about to

[Fingerpicker]

First of all, thanks for taking your time to answer in such detail, I'm fairly certain that as with others, you have just saved me a lot of time, pain, tears and money by recommending the aforementioned setup. Kinda feel like I've hijacked this thread a bit now, sorry about that, but hopefully this information is still useful to someone.

re 2) I've never previously thought about the portability as something desirable, but then I suppose you don't realise how useful it will be until you need it. I can already see my upright acoustic piano in the living room being used more for recording if I could just take the babyface downstairs instead of having a rackmounted unit like the Saffire.

re 3) I'm sure a second sm57 is useful somewhere down the line, but I have been told that the next step in my mic purchasing chain should be a matched pair of sdc for my acoustic. I should mention that I am planning on buying a nice $1700 Takamine acoustic I've been dribbling over for the past 2 years after I have bought my house at the end of this year.

re 4) Monitors may be quite a way down the line for me I'm afraid, however much everyone consistently states that I need them. I suppose I can't appreciate the need for them as much as everyone else, because I've never actually heard anything played back through a pair of monitor speakers. Yeah, you read that right

re 5) The room I have currently been 'given' by the Mrs (feel a bit like Quasimodo being hidden from the world in there) is a small 8x10 room with a bookshelf in one corner and the door in the other, so that eliminates 2 corners where I can't hang any treatment straight off the bat. Again, like with the monitors, treatment is probably late down the improvement chain, due to renting the house and it probably not being the room where I will eventually settle for as my recording space long term.

re 6) Again, this has to wait until I own a house so that I can properly concentrate on one room and get it right. I'll explain my exact MO at the bottom of this post just to be clear.

re 7) Thanks for putting that in terms of megapixels, because I am also a photographer, so that's made more sense to me. I see DA/AD this and that everywhere and didn't really know how important that was.

I understand what you're saying about buying pretty stuff, and that's not really the case (although we probably wouldn't spend as much time on GSz and reading SoS if we didn't like a good-looking piece of kit).

I just want to be able to:

Record good quality stereo tracks, preferably without an external pre-amp but don't mind adding one later on, into a simple but good quality DAW that lets me do basically everything in the box. I will be adding a midi-controller at a later date for midi-drum tracking and just simple transport controls (although am still considering buying a proper hammer action 88 key electric piano with a seperate controller somewhat like the BCF2000).

Oh and lastly on the iMac front. I know that the iMac is a lot more expensive than a pc, but I am not the only one that has a say in that! My girlfriend wants an iMac so let's just say that the iMac is non-negotiable. It may also help the situation when I eventually break the news to her that I'm turning one of the rooms of our newly bought house into something out of Tron.

And if you're ever in the area in England, I'd love to take you for a pint. It's heartwarming that there are still people online that will properly take the time and help someone out without being judgy about your gear education or preconceptions. If there was a karma system on here, you'd get it

[chas19]

Originally Posted by FreD_BeaR

I'd Definitely go Pro Tools man. They do the same thing for the most part, but Pro Tools is industry standard and not only that but Logic is now discontinued. I have not used Logic 9 however, this is coming from experience with Logic 8. Logic is a good program don't get me wrong, I think once you learn how to use either you will like it.

What are you talking about ? Logic is not discontinued

[Fingerpicker]

This would be good news for me really, seeing as 'when' I get the Mac I could download this for $199, but long before I need to think about that. Do like the look of Logic though, seems to live up to it's name.

[chas19]

Originally Posted by Fingerpicker

This would be good news for me really, seeing as 'when' I get the Mac I could download this for $199, but long before I need to think about that. Do like the look of Logic though, seems to live up to it's name.

Logic is great, so is pro tools, but to me pro tools is double the price of logic, and i cant justify it, when logic pretty much everything pro tools can.

Look into reaper, its much cheaper than anything out there, and is pretty good!

[Fingerpicker]

Originally Posted by chas19

Logic is great, so is pro tools, but to me pro tools is double the price of logic, and i cant justify it, when logic pretty much everything pro tools can.

Look into reaper, its much cheaper than anything out there, and is pretty good!

Yeah, I've got reaper, using it at the moment. Can't do much more than track with it though because of the age of the laptop and have already upgraded it to it's max 2gb.

But for tracking and playing around with some in-the-box effects it's doing it's job well.

[College_Records]

Originally Posted by Fingerpicker

re 3) I'm sure a second sm57 is useful somewhere down the line, but I have been told that the next step in my mic purchasing chain should be a matched pair of sdc for my acoustic. I should mention that I am planning on buying a nice $1700 Takamine acoustic I've been dribbling over for the past 2 years after I have bought my house at the end of this year.

Kind of... I'd say make a gobo (portable booth) for vocals and guitar before anything. It will really clean up everything you record and minimize that box of a room your working in. I know it sounds dumb because if you're gonna be doing any acoustic treatment at all, why not do the whole room and get monitors?? But you'll have a trifold gobo tucked away in the corner that you can pull out when you track. It'll make your ldc Stagg shine for sure. That'll be the greatest bang for your buck because everything you record will sound more clear, pure, and have more detail.

Something like this to eliminate those nasty reflections and sonic hell you're surrounded by: ***(only this make sure to cover the stuff in burlap; if you leave the booth like this, you risk breathing in airborne glass fibers which can damage your lungs)



SDC's are great, but it's really up to taste:

LDC's, ribbons, and dynamics are constantly used on everything. I say youtube the hell out of them and see which sound you like. Then buy them

Most importantly: really pay attention to the polar patterns on your microphones and treat at the spots where they are most sensitive; this will really clean up your sources and in turn mix.

That being said, look at the Rode NT5's, Shure SM81's, AKG Perception 170, Avantone Audio CK-1 and my personal favorite 12gauge mics ~ Green12 - 12 Gauge Microphones
Super Cheap and they sound killer!!!!

Originally Posted by Fingerpicker

re 4) Monitors may be quite a way down the line for me I'm afraid, however much everyone consistently states that I need them. I suppose I can't appreciate the need for them as much as everyone else, because I've never actually heard anything played back through a pair of monitor speakers. Yeah, you read that right

.....Errrrr, if twenty people tell you have a tail, then you probably have a tail You're really missing out. Here's a SoS article on the differences between mixing on monitors and headphones:
Mixing On Headphones
Not all is lost - there is a way to LEARN how to mix on headphones, but it's disappointing, painful, and frustrating discouraging, etc... NOBODY I know mixes on headphones, audio engineering schools require their students to buy genelecs, or dynadios which are right up their with focals. Too many things can go wrong with headphones. I started on headphones and I gave up that battle a long time ago. No matter how much you spend $400-$1400, they will never be better than a pair of $400 Yamaha hs50 monitors.

If you choose to be ignorant, spend $500+ on a decent pair of headphones (hopefully used of ebay cuz this stuff gets expensive) listen to familiar songs on your headphones of choice and LEARN their sound; listen to songs you know front and backwards and learn how your headphones respond to different frequencies, where they lack detail, hell take notes and re listen to tracks that sounded off or funny.

The accuracy of playback/monitoring combined with AD/DA forms the backbone of your entire studio.

Skimp on either and every piece of gear that you own will suffer as consequence.

Originally Posted by Fingerpicker

re 5) small 8x10 room with a bookshelf in one corner and the door in the other, so that eliminates 2 corners where I can't hang any treatment straight off the bat. Again, like with the monitors, treatment is probably late down the improvement chain, due to renting the house and it probably not being the room where I will eventually settle for as my recording space long term.

You don't need to hang anything!! They can be free standing and portable as the one above and you can shove them in a corner when you're done (sorry to here about the Quasi Modo situation though ). Message me a diagram in paint of the dimensions of the room and I guarantee $300 monitors plus $200 of acoustic treatment will yield better results than a $1200 pair of headphones.

Okay, so here's a breakdown of the best solutions with the ones i'd pick listed first.
1) Record good quality stereo tracks, preferably without an external pre-amp

On the cheap Winner: $300 for a USED Apogee duet (subtlety colored; Mac only!)

Other options:
A bit above: $700 a new RME babyface
Pro mastering gear: $1600 a USED Lavry blue

If you have to go mac, get a duet. Enough said. They are super cheap and a hell of bang for your buck. Apogee is the standard converter in most pro studios. Trust me. Done.

2) a simple but good quality DAW that lets me do basically everything in the box.

Get logic studio pro. It will not restrict you by any means even if they stop making it. serched for a used licence on ebay

Other choices:
Cubase
Sonar x1
Pro tools
Propellorhead Reason

All of these will work perfectly. They do have different workflow layouts and tools, but don't think for one second that the will have an impact on your sound.

Plugins will be your go tos. I LOVE WAVES PLUGINS, but they are pricey as hell and unless you wanna risk downloading them illegally and possibly face the consequences, pick up valid electronic copies on ebay.

Izotope makes some nice bundles too, but it's really easy to blow your budget on software licences really fast.

Search to see if you can get some cheap or free plugin emulations of classic analog gear. Their are a bunch of illegal ways of getting software, but just a forewarning, if you ever start charging people or making money off stolen software, you will be shut down and fined thousands of dollars faster than you can say "what?"...


3) I will be adding a midi-controller at a later date for midi-drum tracking and just simple transport controls (although am still considering buying a proper hammer action 88 key electric piano with a seperate controller somewhat like the BCF2000)

This is all preference and as far as motorized faders go like the BCF2000, frackliy if you're doing 1 to 6 tracks total, you don't need them ~ anymore past 6 and it's something to consider. [/COLOR]

4) My girlfriend wants an iMac

[COLOR="rgb(46, 139, 87)"]Virtual plugins run on cpu, so get the comp with the best processor. If you overload your session with eq's, effects, emulations, reverbs, etc and your cpu can't keep up, your session of logic will either crash or begin experiencing latency issues.

An important closing note:

Ebay, used music stores, the gearslutz classifieds, and amazon used and refurbished sellers are your fiend! You're gonna be buying a lot of gear, deciding something else might've been better, turning around and selling it, swapping stuff out, making mistakes. If you buy used you will experience minimal impact on your wallet. DO THIS! Swap stuff out! Try new things! They're are no rules! This is supposed to be fun so learn from your mistakes

Originally Posted by Fingerpicker

And if you're ever in the area in England, I'd love to take you for a pint. It's heartwarming that there are still people online that will properly take the time and help someone out without being judgy about your gear education or preconceptions. If there was a karma system on here, you'd get it

Your more than welcome, and i'd love to get a pint, but I'm not sure if my life will take a turn to the UK anytime soon. I'm just trying to give back; this forum has helped me more than any other source I've ever stumbled upon and I figure it's my turn to contribute.

Good luck! - Andrew

[Fingerpicker]

Well again thanks for all your help brother. Will be referring back to this thread for years to come. Feel like a bit of a fog has been lifted for me and I can back to concentrating on music rather than what I should do next.

Thanks again!

[FreD_BeaR]

What about the Roland Octa Capture?? Roland Octa-Capture Interface - Now with Conclusions Really looking at this now instead of presonus 1818vsl