Mic pre/new mixer and/or mic... need to ditch my Behringer board.

[themixtape]

Hi gang... it's been a while since I've posted... a couple years, I think.

Anyway... I would love some tips on what you guys would do if you were me, and had about a grand (or 2k):

I have a Behringer MX2004A board that has been my main mixer for my demos and stuff. It's the old model (when they were silver and not called "Xenyx." It's done ok and I haven't really heard any complaints about the quality of my recordings (hip-hop, and indie stuff)... but, I think it's time to upgrade of course... And I am well aware of the reputation of Behringer, and how despised they are on Gearslutz.

Basically, I want a better vocal sound... warmer/fuller. I know with my very low-budget gear, it doesn't seem possible... before I go any further, allow me to list it:

interface: M-Audio Delta 44
mixer/"pre's": Behringer MX2004A
monitors: KRK Rokit 5
headphones: Sennheiser 280s (the ones for $99)
mics: AKG C2000B, MXL V67G, and MXL 770
mic-pre: Tube MP by Art (haven't even used it yet, bought it on a whim)

I would love to get a good mic pre... and QUIET mixing board that can allow me to "monitor wet, record dry", as I have a rackmount reverb, and I hate the whole latency thing, and refuse to track vocals with a DAW reverb or whatever.... that's one of the reasons I've held on to the Behringer board for as long as I have... being able to monitor wet (record vocals with a nice splash of reverb during the process, and having them completely dry on the track... allowing me to use DAW reverbs or delays to my heart's content).

So, I've been researching a few things.... mainly the Allen & Heath Zed series (either the 14, or the 10FX)... but I don't want to use it as a USB interface... just as a mixer to plug my guitars and hardware synths in, and be able to "monitor wet, record dry."

As far as pre-amps go, I've heard good things about the "Really Nice Pre" from that one company (FMR?) who also does the "Really Nice Compressor"... and also, the Black Lion Audio mic pre which runs about $350 or whatever.

Can any of you guys recommend anything or suggest what I should get/improve in my signal path?

I was also looking at picking up the Neumann TLM 103, as so many YouTube "one man bands" and duos use it (Pomplamoose, Jack Conte, Lauren O'Connell, and Ryan Lerman).... heard it's extremely sensitive, and only good for certain things. I know it's better than all my mics, but oddly, I like the sound of the MXLs (even more so than my AKG).

Thanks so much for your help... you guys are always helpful, and I greatly appreciate it.

-Chris

[themixtape]

I know this "pre" discussion has been done to death, but just wondering what you guys think....

If I picked up the Golden Age PRE73 (Mark II, unmodded), would that help in my setup, as well as using the Allen + Heath Zed 10FX, instead of my 11-year old Behringer MX2004A board?

Would this mic pre perform well with my selection of low-end mics (MXL V67G, MXL 770, and AKG C2000B)? Or would it be wise to pick up a Shure SM7B to replace basically all of these microphones...?

I appreciate any and all help... I'm on the fence, about to drop almost $1000 on these studio upgrades.

Thanks so much for your help,
Chris

[brianellefson]

Originally Posted by themixtape

I know this "pre" discussion has been done to death, but just wondering what you guys think....

If I picked up the Golden Age PRE73 (Mark II, unmodded), would that help in my setup, as well as using the Allen + Heath Zed 10FX, instead of my 11-year old Behringer MX2004A board?

Would this mic pre perform well with my selection of low-end mics (MXL V67G, MXL 770, and AKG C2000B)? Or would it be wise to pick up a Shure SM7B to replace basically all of these microphones...?

I appreciate any and all help... I'm on the fence, about to drop almost $1000 on these studio upgrades.

Thanks so much for your help,
Chris

My preference for order of importance is ... mic - then pre - then converters - then whatever is left. Other people's opinions may vary (and often do around here). The GAP Pre 73 would sound good, yeah, it does impart a certain characteristic, but it's a good one. I have an un-modded version and love it. I would DEFINITELY use that over the Art tube pre.

I don't know how any of those mics interact with your voice so I can't really give you an opinion on them, but for me the mic search took a while. I've gone through a lot of em. Finally settled on an Advanced Audio CM-12 for my vox.

I'm sure the Behringer board is imparting its own thing on your signal path and maybe a bit of noise, too, but I've never used one. I think there are many newer, better made boards out there now that are probably quieter/better in general. Wish I could help more on that.

Buy through a company with a return policy - test stuff out and return or exchange as you figure it out.

[themixtape]

Thank you Brian... yeah, I'm thinking the Golden Age would be a good investment.

To give you an idea of my vocals... here are a couple cover songs from youtube-- Smiths, and The Weepies

Weepies - World Spins Madly On (cover) - YouTube (Weepies cover)

The Smiths - Headmaster Ritual (one man band cover) - YouTube (Smiths cover)

I feel often that my voice is very mid-rangey... I want more warmth and presence in it.. it always sounds thin and weak, as do most of my mixes.

I run the mics, bass, and guitars all through the Behringer and then process as I see fit (using VST reverbs and such)

I'm pretty happy overall with that MXL V67G, but I know I could be using something better.

Let me know what you think... thanks!

[brianellefson]

Originally Posted by themixtape

Thank you Brian... yeah, I'm thinking the Golden Age would be a good investment.

To give you an idea of my vocals... here are a couple cover songs from youtube-- Smiths, and The Weepies

Weepies - World Spins Madly On (cover) - YouTube (Weepies cover)

The Smiths - Headmaster Ritual (one man band cover) - YouTube (Smiths cover)

I feel often that my voice is very mid-rangey... I want more warmth and presence in it.. it always sounds thin and weak, as do most of my mixes.

I run the mics, bass, and guitars all through the Behringer and then process as I see fit (using VST reverbs and such)

I'm pretty happy overall with that MXL V67G, but I know I could be using something better.

Let me know what you think... thanks!

Hey, sorry for the wait ...

I think that MXL mic sounds pretty good on acoustic guitar.

After listening to everything a few times, I think you're doing pretty well with all that stuff. Honestly, you could keep going with what you've got and just put a little more time in on EQing tracks and the art of mixing and that stuff would all work. BUT ... any improvements to gear would just make your life easier when it comes to mixing and getting things to sound right, right out of the gate.

I recorded an entire album onto a Boss BR1200 using a Neumann TLM 103 mic and a Universal Audio M610 (and a couple other things, but those were the big ticket items). When I took it into mix down, it gave my guy a lot of fits because the converters were so bad on the Boss (and it recorded at 16 bit). He was able to get things straightened out, but it definitely took more work (and more time/money for him to do his job). Since then, I've switched over to an iMac running Logic Pro 9. I have a Duet 2 and the Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 and I'm using an Advanced Audio CM12 mic, the Neumann TLM 103, some Oktavamod mics, a GAP Pre 73, and nicer instruments.

Having said all of that, the stuff that made the biggest impact were the mics, mic choice on things, and mic placement. Yes, the converters on the Duet 2 and the Saffire are better than the horrible ones on the Boss BR1200, and upgrading to better converters made a noticeable difference on things, but it was really mics and pres that made the biggest impact.

I was experimenting around before I started recording and I tried a lot of different options of mics and pres (not expensive ones) and man what a difference. When I finally settled on the TLM and the M610 that was a great day.

Then when I went into the studio, Dean Baskerville (who's recorded Everclear, Sheryl Crow) showed me something really cool. He brought up my tracks in the box and played a song. Then, he sent it out into a Neve console, a 5088, which didn't even have EQ modules on the tracks. The difference I heard, just running the tracks through the Neve pres alone, no eq, was really noticeable. REALLY.

Man, I am really rambling here. Sorry about that. I guess my point is ... and I'll try to paraphrase myself ..........

You're getting good results with what you've got, experiment with mics on your voice and find one that you feel works better with it, get a solid pre to run stuff through, and replace the Behringer board as time/money permits. I wish I knew more about the board, it may be a fairly quiet piece, don't know, but that other stuff will make a bigger impact on your sound. So there, thats my recommendation ... mics ... then pres ... then converters ... then the mixer. Know what? Thats what I basically said before. Yup. Just repeating myself. Sorry bout that.

There. I hope through all of that you were able to glean something out of it.

[ChubbyPanda]

I just sold my Behringer MX2004a (silver) from like 2000 or 2001. It was suprisingly quiet. Not nearly as good as outboard pres like the GAP or others, but was quiet. The silver ones still have decent resale. On ebay mine sold for $115.

If you need more pre channels look at the ART MPA GOLD. Theses are very affordable but very usable.

[e-are]

i would look at a mackie onyx mixer like the 1602 or 1604. Contrary to what some slutz think, it's a good mixer. As far as pres goes, I like the focusrite isa one. It's a solid pre that won't break the bank. Good luck on your search.

[themixtape]

Thanks for the tips, guys... Yeah the Focusrite might be a tad out of my range... I'm leaning more toward the Golden Age Pre 73... I wish I could hear the Focusrite and GA in a side-by-side comparison..... still searching the boards and google, but can't find much.

I'll look into the Onyx, but from what I've read recently, Mackie is becoming as hated as Behringer, for their gear.... ok, I just price-checked the Onyx models 1620 and 1640 (which I think you meant)... too expensive, and too many channels (I'm mainly a solo recordist, duo at most)

You'd def. recommend the Onyx over the A+H? The A+H is much cheaper, and from what I hear, they are QUIET.

Thanks!

[themixtape]

Brian - thanks for listening, man. And thanks for the compliments and advice. Yeah, I may never get used to the whole process of "mixing" - honestly, I don't really ever EQ anything at all. I just compress the vox, and record everything straight. To me, it sounds good. I keep the mixer's EQ at noon... especially for those two videos.

I'll definitely work more with the stuff I've got on hand... but I think a good pre would be a good investment at the very least.

-Chris

[themixtape]

ChubbyPanda - I read about the ART MPA Gold... the price is definitely decent.... hmm. Would you recommend that over the Golden Age Pre 73? I really liked all the examples I've heard with that Golden Age... for the price, it doesn't seem to get much better.

[ChubbyPanda]

Originally Posted by themixtape

ChubbyPanda - I read about the ART MPA Gold... the price is definitely decent.... hmm. Would you recommend that over the Golden Age Pre 73? I really liked all the examples I've heard with that Golden Age... for the price, it doesn't seem to get much better.

It's all about what you like. If you like it then go with it. I just suggested the MPA because it really doesn't color the sound unless you enable the high plate voltage button. So it is kind of like 2 preamps in one.... And there are 2 channels. While you cannot get it new anymore it is tough to find one on ebay because no one sells theirs. That says something about how good and versatile they are.

The most important thing is that you are happy with your decision