Audiophiles & studio owners are full of it

[vedt]

Just kidding. Professional studio guys and AE's are actually really talented people like Nigel Godrich, Flood, and Brendan O'Brien who help create amazing records like OK Computer and Achtung Baby. When I was in high school, I remember reading all about how these guys worked - nothing I could ever do.

But I just started writing songs a year ago, and plan on trying my hand at recording my first set of demos. So I bought $1,500 in basic gear (57, 58, AT2020, GAP Pre73, Mogami cables, etc.) and plan on tracking some lo-fi stuff at home and at a the cabin. Hopefully I will create something that my friends will listen to after I give them the EP of demos for free. And if the response is good, I plan on going into the studio in a year or so to finally make a good quality record.

I'll post some of my tunes once they're final to get your opinions on the mix / mic placement / etc. Aiming for late summer, as I know it will take me a while just to figure out how to work all of this new gear! But if recording demos at home is misguided, please rip me to shreds!

[guitarboy94]

I agree with you 100 percent. I was told that it couldn't' be done as well. However, I've had several professionals on this forum review my low-budget material in private. They stated that it sounded terrific.

Just be forewarned: you will be eaten alive very shortly by an onslaught of folks who have tens of thousands invested in gear (which is understandable for catering to full rock bands and actual paying clients).

See my similar thread:

You CAN have a pro home studio for 1 Grand!

[ShadowAMD]

Originally Posted by vedt

I’ve been playing guitar for 13 years and, for whatever reason, started writing songs and performing coffeeshop and café shows a year ago. And then I decided I wanted to record a 5-song EP. So I pushed forward, exploring the various options (studio vs. at home, stripped-down vs. full band). Some guys told me I needed to spend $1,000 per song in a studio, minimum. Others said I could do a stripped-down studio project for $3,000. And then I suggested doing it at home, and guys told me I needed $10,000 in gear just to get started ($2,000 condenser, $1,000 mic-preamp…).

But then I listen to records like Bon Iver’s “For Emma, Forever Ago” or the Jon Foreman EP’s. They’re my favorite. And they were done at home, and any entry-level audiophile will tell you their mic placement was bad, or the vocals had too much high end, or the room acoustics were bad. BUT PEOPLE LOVE THEIR RECORDS ANYWAY! Which tells you that it’s about the music and emotion conveyed, not the recording quality.

So my decision has been to buy $1,500 worth of cheap home recording gear (Boss BR-600, AT2020 and SM58 mics, GAP Pre73, etc.) and do the record myself. I’ll let you know how it turns out.

Good for you! LOL!.. Fidelity is more than just the emotion conveyed, it presents how that emotion should be conveyed and doesn't get in the way of the song..

To me that's a good chain, it doesn't come cheap. But then again it doesn't exactly cost hundred's of thousands.. Plus studio owners have to cater to more than just a guy doing his own recordings.. What if someone shows up with an 8 piece drum kit?

We went through this before, for an acoustic setup you can do it from scratch for 3 -5K no problems.. If you don't have your room treated best of luck to ya.. You will probably need it..

It all depends.. Really it does.

[ShadowAMD]

Originally Posted by guitarboy94

I agree with you 100 percent. I was told that it couldn't' be done as well. However, I've had several professionals on this forum review my low-budget material in private and state that it sounded terrific.

Just be forewarned: you will be eaten alive very shortly by an onslaught of pessimists.

See my similar thread:

You CAN have a pro home studio for 1 Grand!

I want to hear this!

[guitarboy94]

I can give you a listen to a rough mix, Shadow. What's your e-mail?

[monsieur x]

What a shame, I really hope you are an ace session player, ace recordist, ace mixer, ace songwriter, ace producer, etc.

Of course this is all a huge conspiracy. Of course a Telefunken and your AT2020 will sound similar enough.

How or why anyone would want to do it all themselves I have no idea.

Honestly, there are few records that sound that way that are career-making records. It might provide a very brittle, low, and small stepping stone though.

Best of luck,

[ShadowAMD]

Originally Posted by guitarboy94

I can give you a listen to a rough mix, Shadow. What's your e-mail?

Sent, sorry but I really want to hear this CAD M9.. LOL I keep kinda lusting over one for reasons I can't comprehend.

[guitarboy94]

Cool. All the vocals in the mix I just sent you were recorded with CADS. CAD M9 on lead vocals. CAD 179 on BGVs.

[vedt]

Originally Posted by guitarboy94

I agree with you 100 percent. I was told that it couldn't' be done as well. However, I've had several professionals on this forum review my low-budget material in private. They stated that it sounded terrific.

Just be forewarned: you will be eaten alive very shortly by an onslaught of folks who have tens of thousands invested in gear (which is understandable for catering to full rock bands and actual paying clients).

See my similar thread:

You CAN have a pro home studio for 1 Grand!

I know I'm going to be eaten alive by most folks on here, which is ironic because it's the Low End Theory section. Besides, I already have a good day job. I'm not waiting tables hoping this record is my "big break".

[ShadowAMD]

Originally Posted by vedt

First, I could care less what studio professionals think. Give your music to 10 people who buy records every week - the true fans - and see what they say. None of them are going to comment on EQ, panning, compression. It's either a good record or a bad one. Or an okay record.

Second, I know I'm going to be eaten alive by the audiophiles. But I'm kind of doing this record on the cheap to try and prove them wrong. If I'm right, awesome. If I'm wrong, I will have spent $1,500 and have some demo-quality gear, and I'm not out the $10,000 they said I needed to spend. Besides, I already have a good day job. I'm not waiting tables hoping this record is my "big break".

If you don't care what we think, why are you on GS?

Do you sell millions of records already?

Did you just go out of your way to say everyone here is wrong?

Why do so many, potentially amazing future artist's come to GS to get advice?.. Don't get me wrong there are some elitist's in this place that really rub me the wrong way too.

But I'm sure if an experienced engineer, who is an actual professional who cares about customers.. They would sit you down and spend some time with you explaining exactly what they do and why they do it..

Why they needed to spend that amount of money, what in there experiences actually was a benefit..

It's more about who you talk to, I can't just say go spend $10,000 because in all honesty you seriously might not need it.

An engineer is here to take care of the artist, which can range from giving them a cheap or expensive mic.. To sitting down with a coffee and relaxing them so they come out with a better performance..

People forget it's not all about what you use.

[oakleaf]

I probably spent at least $5,000 trying to make a $1,000 home studio work for me before I got smart and started investing in quality. It's not about some type of "elite audiophile" trying to repress you. It's just a fact, cheap sh-t is cheap. If you are as critical about your product as most of us are, you will just end up re-buying gear again and again and again until you man-up and get the quality gear instead of trying to find a cheap fix. None of us like spending money and if we could avoid it we'd do it gladly.

There's also the question of time and stress. If the door handle to your car breaks you can just climb out the window and save some money. But if you're job is delivering pizzas and you need to be jumping in and out of your car 30 or 40 times an hour you might want to just spend the cash to fix the handle. Sure I could use a free-ware, two track DAW and it would "sound" just as good, but I don't hate myself enough to do so.

[Paulie Storm]

Originally Posted by vedt

I’ve been playing guitar for 13 years and, for whatever reason, started writing songs and performing coffeeshop and café shows a year ago. And then I decided I wanted to record a 5-song EP. So I pushed forward, exploring the various options (studio vs. at home, stripped-down vs. full band). Some guys told me I needed to spend $1,000 per song in a studio, minimum. Others said I could do a stripped-down studio project for $3,000. And then I suggested doing it at home, and guys told me I needed $10,000 in gear just to get started ($2,000 condenser, $1,000 mic-preamp…).

But then I listen to records like Bon Iver’s “For Emma, Forever Ago” or the Jon Foreman EP’s. They’re my favorite. And they were done at home, and any entry-level audiophile will tell you their mic placement was bad, or the vocals had too much high end, or the room acoustics were bad. BUT PEOPLE LOVE THEIR RECORDS ANYWAY! Which tells you that it’s about the music and emotion conveyed, not the recording quality.

So my decision has been to buy $1,500 worth of cheap home recording gear (Boss BR-600, AT2020 and SM58 mics, GAP Pre73, etc.) and do the record myself. I’ll let you know how it turns out.

SWEET!!! can't wait to hear your tracks. Go for it. Its always about the music!!!

Sent from my DROIDX using Gearslutz.com

[Paulie Storm]

Originally Posted by guitarboy94

I can give you a listen to a rough mix, Shadow. What's your e-mail?

Me to!!!

Sent from my DROIDX using Gearslutz.com

[tonemaker]

you can't buy skills. working in a studio (hopefully) means working with a talented engineer and perhaps others brought in to help you create your tune in an advanced way. I'm am totally a DIY type of guy, but even I have come face to face with this reality. And unless you have a room with good acoustics and excellent monitors, you will be in a great 2-front battle uphill in a rainstorm.

[joelpatterson]

There's a certain area of expertise, which is not at all limited to "studio owners" (and some of them are absolutely oblivious to it, sad to report) and some musicians have an expert handle on: this is the ability to mix tracks down in a way that the sum total result is something that transcends the specifics of the instruments played and the voices singing: so that it all coheres into a transcendent experience for the listener: it creates a world of its own.

There's nothing "magic" about doing this, it doesn't require any esoteric gear, but it DOES need the mixer-person to have an ambitious vision of what the final product could and should sound like-- it requires a mixer-person who is not easily satisfied and will keep experimenting and pushing until he/she/it arrives at something that is nothing short of "spectacular," in whatever way the music calls for spectacularity.

So there's that, and there's also the practical consideration: all gear everywhere has sweet spots, or "sweet activation zones" and while the performer is consumed with pounding out a terrific performance, the engineer (if there is one in the scenario) is tweaking the gear so that it's responding in the most excellently desirable way possible-- I've seen people in action who think it's okay to "set and forget" gain dials and compressor settings, and it's painting by numbers-- sure, it'll look like a boat in a harbor-- no, that's not floating trash, that's supposed to be a seagull-- and the bottom line is always if recording gear is working, it will make a recording-- but that's a very modest goal.

I guess my concern or warning or advice would be along these lines: everything about the process is a bitch, from getting it all plugged in and working and tuning the strings and connecting to the inspiration that made you want to do it in the first place-- just don't be so overjoyed that you've successfully navigated all the bitchery that you loose sight of the need for your final product to stand out in some special way, or many special ways-- that right there's the only reason artists generally have trusted collaborators-- not utterly necessary in every case-- but very helpful when they're there.

[Jose]

OK, now the 1K Pro Studio turned into a 1,5K Pro Studio.

You CAN have a pro home studio for 1 Grand!

That makes it 500$ more pro right?

LOL

[guitarboy94]

The below is the best piece of wisdom I've heard on this site in a very long time. Good stuff! Now THIS is an engineer I'd love to work with...

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

There's a certain area of expertise, which is not at all limited to "studio owners" (and some of them are absolutely oblivious to it, sad to report) and some musicians have an expert handle on: this is the ability to mix tracks down in a way that the sum total result is something that transcends the specifics of the instruments played and the voices singing: so that it all coheres into a transcendent experience for the listener: it creates a world of its own.

There's nothing "magic" about doing this, it doesn't require any esoteric gear, but it DOES need the mixer-person to have an ambitious vision of what the final product could and should sound like-- it requires a mixer-person who is not easily satisfied and will keep experimenting and pushing until he/she/it arrives at something that is nothing short of "spectacular," in whatever way the music calls for spectacularity.

So there's that, and there's also the practical consideration: all gear everywhere has sweet spots, or "sweet activation zones" and while the performer is consumed with pounding out a terrific performance, the engineer (if there is one in the scenario) is tweaking the gear so that it's responding in the most excellently desirable way possible-- I've seen people in action who think it's okay to "set and forget" gain dials and compressor settings, and it's painting by numbers-- sure, it'll look like a boat in a harbor-- no, that's not floating trash, that's supposed to be a seagull-- and the bottom line is always if recording gear is working, it will make a recording-- but that's a very modest goal.

I guess my concern or warning or advice would be along these lines: everything about the process is a bitch, from getting it all plugged in and working and tuning the strings and connecting to the inspiration that made you want to do it in the first place-- just don't be so overjoyed that you've successfully navigated all the bitchery that you loose sight of the need for your final product to stand out in some special way, or many special ways-- that right there's the only reason artists generally have trusted collaborators-- not utterly necessary in every case-- but very helpful when they're there.

[Paulie Storm]

+1 for Joel!!

Sent from my DROIDX using Gearslutz.com

[tampa]

Spot on Joel...

[MoneySound]

To the OP:
You can get good results with budget gear; there's a thousand posts about how to do it. Just remember it takes a lot of dicking around and just when you're in the zone and inspired, some gear related distraction occurs. I do not wish to discourage you. I hope you push forward and learn as you go. But I also hope you can find a friend who is not an "expert", but someone with some solid fundamental knowledge of acoustics, signal flow etc. to help you experiment and maybe to push Record for you so you can focus on the music. Good luck.

[Ron Vogel]

Pardon me...I skimmed (is it a virture to have no impulse control?)

Anyway, you can have it one of 2 ways.

1. Pay a studio to record your songs and be done.

2. Get recording gear, botch the recordings of your most important tunes...then learn from your mistakes and get better.

You CAN get excellent results at home, on cheap gear without question.

Just remember it aint the tool, it's the carpenter.

Recording is an art of itself, I've been playing guitar 30 years...gigged extensively, been in and out of all sorts of studios over the years solo and with different bands.

I started my first real recording rig about 4 years ago...and I'm just getting to the point of really getting it. I was even unemployed for 2 of those years, so I spent A LOT of time honing my skills.



If you can record yourself, do it...but don't expect stellar results for awhile.

[ShadowAMD]

Originally Posted by Ron Vogel

Pardon me...I skimmed (is it a virture to have no impulse control?)

Anyway, you can have it one of 2 ways.

1. Pay a studio to record your songs and be done.

2. Get recording gear, botch the recordings of your most important tunes...then learn from your mistakes and get better.

You CAN get excellent results at home, on cheap gear without question.

Just remember it aint the tool, it's the carpenter.

Recording is an art of itself, I've been playing guitar 30 years...gigged extensively, been in and out of all sorts of studios over the years solo and with different bands.

I started my first real recording rig about 4 years ago...and I'm just getting to the point of really getting it. I was even unemployed for 2 of those years, so I spent A LOT of time honing my skills.



If you can record yourself, do it...but don't expect stellar results for awhile.

Yup, but what if you had a better carpenter with better tools?

[cavern]

Anything can be done,the question is,is it likely to happen?
Start with the goal,what is it? Do you want to do this soon/does that matter?
Are you planning on making a living at it or(possibly just a paying hobby) by posting the tracks recorded and mixed by you with that gear or is that the start of it and as you learn,your going to increase the expenditure..or take it somewhere else then.

Some smaller studios with great gear would probably do the 5 songs for
$1500 assuming you got it down and your ready to go but if you think you would enjoy doing it and your willing to wait the lenght of the learning curve,assuming you have a knack for it and you just might very well have it.
Of course,you might not,just like not everybody can play guitar even though they want to and practice everyday.You won't know till you try.
Forget what people say,make a realistic plan and do it.Good luck either way.
My 2 cents only.(*no money was harmed during this contribution).

[mhs2xs]

Joel isn't just an engineer, he own's a studio....so he must be full of it.

[Bullseye]

Yes, but in order to convey and communicate emotion with music it has to be rendered in some way. It is at this juncture where the ineffable subjective musicality becomes fixed in some form. The process of rendering it is what we talk about here BECAUSE, the process is important to capture the nuances that communicate the emotion. JUST BECAUSE YOUR IDENTIFY WITH SOMETHING AND THINK OF IT AS SUBJECTIVELY GOOD DOES NOT IN AND OF ITSELF DEFINE THE QUALITY OF GOOD FOR EVERYONE'S INDIVIDUAL PERCEPTION.

GET OFF IT ALREADY. The records you mentioned are not to everyone's liking. Of course, the majority of record buyers are unsophisticated. SO WHAT?? This is not news.

[TurboJets]

The OP is such a rebel, it's so butch. And it's so cool that s/he took the time and energy to come onto GS and let the interwebs know what a tough guy/gal is really like.

I wish I'd taken the time this morning to let everyone know I had a bowl of Post Toasties for breakfast.

Next time, for sure. Next time.

[dasnub]

I'm a really good musician. I've played the piano (classically trained) for 20 years, drums for 14, and guitar/bass for another 8. I got into home recording for the same reason you did... To just simply record myself. And I'll tell you what- it just ain't that simple to sound like a pro.

Tools matter. Don't let bad tools stop you from getting started, but beware- you WILL hit walls that require you to invest in new gear to break through them. Sure, you can move 1000 tons of gravel with a spoon, but it really helps to have a bulldozer.

[ShadowAMD]

If tools don't matter I will give you a plastic butter knife, you can go and take down a grand oak with it..

See you in 115,000 (Still not a guarantee) years or until your knife breaks.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by mhs2xs

Joel isn't just an engineer, he own's a studio....so he must be full of it.

I'm really only half-full-- or half-empty, depends on how you look at it?

[guitarboy94]

What I like about Joel is that he seems to dish out advise with both an open mind and a smart-ass opinion. A perfect combination in an engineer!