Mixer & Good PreAmp VS 8 Cheap PreAmps for a full drum kit miking.

[cedric.ferrier]

Hey guys!
This is my first post here, great forum btw!
As the title states, I've got a bunch of decent mics coming in and my next step is a preamp setup for my pc.
I was thinking of going for the tascam 2000(any thoughts?) so that i can simply set my mics up, plug em in and I'm ready to rock. I started researching preamps and quickly realized how important quality is here. Im not a pro studio just amateur, but i do want to get a decent sound out of my mics. A 2000$+ preamp isn't really in my budget, but I'm open to saving for it. As this as my other option, Im guessing I would have to get a mixer as well to plug all of my mics into, then route that to the preamp. Also How do I interface an adat preamp with my pc?. Tha ks in advance!

[gravyface]

For each sound source (mic in your case), you'll need an input; this will correspond to a channel in your DAW software.

Assuming a modest setup (Recorder Man or Glyn Johns), you'll want at least 4 inputs:
- kick
- snare
- overhead 1
- overhead 2

In order to provide enough gain for your microphones, you'll need a preamp for each microphone. You may also require phantom power if you're using condensers (your mic will specify).

Preamps come in all shapes and sizes; they can come in the form of mixers (Mackie, Soundcraft, etc.), standalone analog preamp units (Joe Meek, ART Pro, Golden Age Pre73), standalone digital preamp units (Presonus Digimax 8D, Behringer ADA8000, etc.) and computer audio interfaces (EMU 1616, Focusrite Saffire Pro, Tascam 1800).

In my (somewhat ghetto) setup, I have two devices between the microphones and the computer: an old Tascam M308 analog mixer and a Delta 44 computer audio interface.

The Tascam is a mixer, but I'm not really "mixing" with it: it's responsible for providing gain to the microphone signal and routing each Tascam microphone channel to an individual input on the Delta 44's breakout box. The Delta does not have preamps. If it did, I wouldn't need the Tascam.

Unless you're planning on using the mixer for mixing (and most don't: once they get the sound into the computer, they mix In The Box (ITB) vs. Out of the Box (OTB) ), I wouldn't bother getting one. I've owned my Tascam mixer for 15 years and the Delta 44 was $70 used. That's as low-end as you can get, but I'm pretty happy with my drum sound after ALOT of trial and error; if you have a nice sounding room, and quality mics, the Glyn Johns technique can produce a really nice drum track, and it only needs 4 channels.

Deciding on what to buy boils down to:

- how many analog inputs (sound sources) and outputs (outputs are important if you plan on doing analog summing, need various headphone mixes, or have a bunch of outboard gear)

- what computer interface? PCI is old and problematic with newer Sandy Bridge based computers (Intel Core i3/5/7 chipsets), but reliable/stable on older computers (Core 2 Duo, etc.); PCIe is fast and fairly futureproof; USB is portable, firewire can be problematic if you don't have a good firewire chipset (you'll want Texas Instruments chipset; search the forums, can't recall exact model). I'm considering the original RME Multiface as I've heard that the AD/DA converters are phenominal as well as the digital signal processing (DSP) and built-in software mixing. There are no preamps though, so I'd need to keep using my Tascam until I can replace it with higher quality ones.

- do you want preamps in the audio interface or do you want to collect your own external preamps? The latter is more expensive to give you that critical gain per channel, but a nice warm preamp like a Great River or Golden Age Pre73 will never get old, much like old Neumann mics and Neve consoles); built-in preamps can also sound good, but you're stuck with that sound for the life of the interface (unless they support bypassing).

- what kind of quality analog-to-digital/digital-to-analog (AD/DA) converters do you need? With all-in-one audio interfaces, there's usually a compromise somewhere. RME's stuff is known to have really high quality AD/DA converters as well as Lynx, but just the cards themselves (with no inputs or outputs) can be fairly expensive and you'll need still a digital preamp to plug your mics into. I'm looking into something like an EMU1212 as my sound card, but with a digital preamp like a Presonus Digimax D8 for my inputs; alot of guys like the Behringer ADA8000 for this too.

Wow that was an epic post. Anyways, hope that helps. I'm not really that far ahead of you either. Do some reading in here and you'll be able to (hopefully) make the right decision on an interface.

[cedric.ferrier]

Awesome Post!!!
Thanks alot... Basically i did some more research and apperently the mackie 8 channel mixer model i1640 or something along those lines, has everything i need plus supposed decent preamps and firewire connectivity with a bunch of other features. Any thoughts on these newish mackie i micers?

[brassmoose]

Soundcraft has much better pres than Mackie. $300 for the EPM8 new. Run the inserts (1st click) out to your interfce. Then u have 3 headphone mixes on the board.

[cedric.ferrier]

It doesnt have usb or firewire connectivity though? Do you think these pres are better than the mackie onyx pres?

[gravyface]

Originally Posted by cedric.ferrier

Awesome Post!!!
Thanks alot... Basically i did some more research and apperently the mackie 8 channel mixer model i1640 or something along those lines, has everything i need plus supposed decent preamps and firewire connectivity with a bunch of other features. Any thoughts on these newish mackie i micers?

You sure you want a mixer? I'm not certain that this will let you control your DAW from the Mackie mixer itself. Seems like a lot of dough for a 8-channel device with the limited usefulness of the mixer, unless you're planning on routing it back out to the mixer again.

I'm probably going to get rid of my mixer and just use the preamps on the interface and a control surface to manipulate the DAW software.

[brassmoose]

I already hsve an interface, so the soundcraft mixer is all about the pres. Way better than my $150 per channel ARTs. The auxes are a nice bonus for having mult headphone mixes. If i didnt have the interface, than yeah, almost overkill.

[YTCrazyTieGuy]

I feel like most of these posts are just confusing. I've done a lot of research on this and ultimately decided on the presonus Audiobox 1818VSL (completely different preamps and converters from the much worst audiobox usb BTW). It seemed to have the best specs for it's preamps and got good reviews. It also comes with studio one and a virtual no-latency mixer, which is very cool, and works with both mac and PC. Other than that, I would look at the Mackie blackbird (if you're not planning on using MIDI), Steinberg MR816, which gets great reviews, TC electronic Konnekt (if you want to spend that much), and the Echo Audiofire line, if you're crazy about great conversion. Ultimately, it's all up to your own personal preference (and maybe your computer), but I really wouldn't get too caught up in it because you would probably be hard pressed to hear a difference between the interfaces in your price range, and I personally wish I wouldn't have wasted so much time thinking about what interface to buy. Instead I would rather waste time on researching microphones and tracking & mixing technique, cause those ultimately will make a Way bigger difference than a peace of gear.

Anyway those are my two cents, hope you make the most of them.

Edit: forget about the 44VSL and the m-audio fast track Ultra & Ultra 8R, which are also good.

[gravyface]

Originally Posted by brassmoose

I already hsve an interface, so the soundcraft mixer is all about the pres. Way better than my $150 per channel ARTs. The auxes are a nice bonus for having mult headphone mixes. If i didnt have the interface, than yeah, almost overkill.

I thought you were considering the Tascam 2000, but didn't know you had one already. What interface do you have?

[gravyface]

Originally Posted by YTCrazyTieGuy

I feel like most of these posts are just confusing. I've done a lot of research on this and ultimately decided on the presonus Audiobox 1818VSL (completely different preamps and converters from the much worst audiobox usb BTW). It seemed to have the best specs for it's preamps and got good reviews. It also comes with studio one and a virtual no-latency mixer, which is very cool, and works with both mac and PC. Other than that, I would look at the Mackie blackbird (if you're not planning on using MIDI), Steinberg MR816, which gets great reviews, TC electronic Konnekt (if you want to spend that much), and the Echo Audiofire line, if you're crazy about great conversion. Ultimately, it's all up to your own personal preference (and maybe your computer), but I really wouldn't get too caught up in it because you would probably be hard pressed to hear a difference between the interfaces in your price range, and I personally wish I wouldn't have wasted so much time thinking about what interface to buy. Instead I would rather waste time on researching microphones and tracking & mixing technique, cause those ultimately will make a Way bigger difference than a peace of gear.

Anyway those are my two cents, hope you make the most of them.

Edit: forget about the 44VSL and the m-audio fast track Ultra & Ultra 8R, which are also good.

There's just soooo many options now, yeah. I've been searching and reading and wow, under $500, there are at least a dozen 8 analog input options (with varying amounts of preamps).

The Tascam 2000 is intriguing: 16 analog inputs for ~$350 is pretty amazing. Wonder how it sounds though. Corners had to be cut somewhere for that price.

[YTCrazyTieGuy]

The reason why I didn't mention the Tascam is because they don't really give full specs (this is also why I didn't mention MOTU, who don't give any specs whatsoever), so you can't know for sure if it'll work for certain situations. For example, If you use sensitive condensers as overheads for drums, you can easily clip the input of your preamp if it's not good. But Tascam doesn't even tell you the clipping point for a specified THD level. It also doesn't specify input impedance, which can definitely affect the sound of your dynamic mics, such as an SM57 on a snare (the higher the impedance the brighter the sound). The other interface that has that many inputs which you can get for the same price if you look hard enough is the Focusrite saffire pro40, but it's clipping level is 8dBu for 1% THD, and it doesn't specify input impedance either.

[GZsound]

Originally Posted by brassmoose

Soundcraft has much better pres than Mackie. $300 for the EPM8 new. Run the inserts (1st click) out to your interfce. Then u have 3 headphone mixes on the board.

I had an older Soundcraft 12 channel mixer and I believe the inserts were backwards from most other mixers.

You need to plug a TRS jack all the way into the insert and have the tip and ring shorted. The send on the Soundcraft insert jack isn't the first click..or at least it wasn't on the older (ES12?) mixer.

They do have great preamps, even in their low cost mixers.

[brassmoose]

I record direct into my Zoom R24. Then just copy files via USB to my dektop. Works great. It can also double as an interface if i need to.

On the soundcraft, i can 1st click a TS cable into the insert, but its not a rock solid connection. So I have a radio shack adapter...receives mono 1/4" TS and has TRS 1/4" plug that goes into insert, so it shorts. Works fine. $3 adapter. I run the unbalanced cable to the zoom, and its all good. No need for balanced cables. Its only 6 feet away, so no noise.

[brassmoose]

Correction: yes, GZSound is correct. It is not the first click. It's sort of a click & a half, and it's a touchy setting. Using the radio shack mono/stereo 1/4" adapters solves the problem.