Lynx AES16e is equal to what?

[smoovemode]

I looked and looked, But I still am not sure what the Lynx card is capable of. I'm on the hunt for anything that will give me "High End" sound and a budget price PCIE or Boxed. This Lynx card looks cool and I wanted to get some feedback on it. What is it equal to in card or box form and can you connect preamps to it directly or does the preamp have to have an ADC card installed?

Thanks

I would like to compare it with

RME
Apogee Symphony
Avid HD I O
etc.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Last year I wanted to change my interface, and the two that I landed on were the Lynx AES 16e and the RME HDSPe AES.

After talking to many owners of each and being fortunate enough to find a pro user I knwo who has BOTH in the same machine, I bought the RME version.

What these are not: multifunctional combo of 3,000 features. No mic pres, no line outs, ....no converters!!!!! None. nada.

What they are: 16 channel computer audio interfaces using the AES digital audio format on Dsub connectors. Each Dsub carries 8 channels of I/O. AES is also often carried on XLR, 2 channels at a time.

There are two pin out standards for AES over Dsub, Tascam and Yamaha. Some manufacturers use one, some use the other. This is NOT a big deal. You just have to know, so that you either buy or solder the right thing. It doesn't even matter if you have one type of device on one end of the cable and the other type of device on the other end of the cable, so long as the pinouts are correct. All the people who make these cables know this. RME even sells a little adapter/converter to swap the pins around. Lynx is wired one way, RME the other. You can still use Lynx Aurora converters with an RME AES card, just by getting the right cable. There is no cost difference in the pinout selection. If the cable costs $50, it will cost the same wired A/A, A/B, or B/B.

In my case I needed Dsub to XLR, as the Mytek 8x96 converters use XLR for AES.

I believe that you can use multiples of these cards to add more channels in any computer with enough slots. (I know that you can with the RME, and TotalMix supports multiple cards.)

The Lynx has additional expandability (using daughter cards), the RME does not. The RME also brings MIDI I/O along for the ride. In my opinion, the RME matrix mixer is a lot nicer. And you get the free Digicheck toolkit and Digicheck Record (a Studer RTR emulation in software).

Of course, the RME drivers and support are up to their usual standards. I just saw another driver issue with Lynx on another forum. Lynx stuff is very very nice, but these odd problems crop up, seem to take a long time to get resolved, and it makes me nervous. The RME is significantly more expensive.

The RME is 2 cards, but they do not have to be placed adjacent to each other. The interconnect is via a ribbon connector that runs from the top of one to the other. I happen to have mine separated by a card slot.

The second card does not use a slot. This was useful to me because my mother board has a combo of PCI and PCIe slots. I'm not using any PCI, so I was able to put the daughter card over one of those and save a PCIe slot. If all of your slots are PCIe, you may not care.

[smoovemode]

What would be the best bang for the buck converter/interface one could get for around 2500.00?

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by smoovemode

What would be the best bang for the buck converter/interface one could get for around 2500.00?

Well, first thing is: I don't select gear that way. I select gear by performance and features that I need, then look at the price, cry a while, and look for the next best thing.

And you've not set any parameters. How many channels? MIDI?

I've made this same suggestion many times here. Pick an interface to be the heart of your system, but buy one that allows you to use separate converters and mic pres. This allows access on a budget, and the ability to upgrade piecemeal without having to get involved in computer 'stuff' and a new learning curve.

For example: an RME RayDAT card has 4 I/O on ADAT. That is 32 channels of 44.1-48/42 bit audio. Plus it has an AES 196 pair and a SPDIF pair. 36 channels. Under $1k. I could buy two Behringer ADA8000 for $250 each and have a basic 16 channel system for well under $1500. (Closer to $1300.) When I could afford it I could buy a Mytek, Lynx, or some other 8 channel converter set. When i could afford it I could buy something like the ATI 8MX2 (8 channels of Paragon mic pres and limiters.) Now I've got 24 channels, 8 of them pretty darned killer. You can play this game all day, because once you have the computer interface the rest is just plumbing. (Plug in the 'pipes'). And the list of manufacturers and options is pretty long. I could use a lunchbox solution instead of an 8 channel 1 rack space piece. I could just pick pairs of 1 rack space mic pres (which is what I did.) You are pretty much only limited by your imagination.

What I do not care for are single box solutions which lock you into totally replacing them if you want to upgrade.

[smoovemode]

I like your theory. My needs are not too extensive. I do mostly single shot tracking at this time. I could probable get away with just a few mic preamp inputs for a while. I would like some sort of digital input option for connect outboard gear, if needed. I use all music plugins for my jams and will probably sprinkle some live guitar, bass and sax over them.

[smoovemode]

Question...what's your thoughts on BLA sparrow ? One big item I left of my wish list is the option to use pt hd with it.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by smoovemode

I like your theory. My needs are not too extensive. I do mostly single shot tracking at this time. I could probable get away with just a few mic preamp inputs for a while. I would like some sort of digital input option for connect outboard gear, if needed. I use all music plugins for my jams and will probably sprinkle some live guitar, bass and sax over them.

Well, I'll mention a few RME products, but there are many others, I'm just more familiar with RME, I like the company. The AIO (all in one), the RayDAT, the HDSPe AES, the FF800 or FF400, the Babyface... all have different feature sets and setups, consider them. I had the FF800, first bought for remotes but then used as the basic platform for my small 16 channel home setup. But if you only need 8 channels, the Babyface, newer technology, has a lot to recommend. Expanding either into better pres is easy. On the FF800 it was just a matter of plugging the new preamps into the line inputs. New converters are added via the ADAT ports, my Myteks plugged right in. Check the number of the various possibilities before you buy anything. I wanted 16 channels of 96k AES and I wanted to get off of firewire, which is why I switched from the FF800 to the HDSPe AES card.

I don't know anything about BL, I see them mentioned with equal amounts of reverence and scorn, and they're not really selling anything I am interested in owning so I've never looked very deeply into the company.

[ShadowAMD]

Originally Posted by smoovemode

What would be the best bang for the buck converter/interface one could get for around 2500.00?

Trying not to be a sweeping generalist, you cannot go wrong with a MH - LIO8...

If you have issues with this interface, it's broken or it's you.

You never specified dollars or Euro's or GBP.. So I went for the most expensive version of 2500.. Because this is gearslutz..

I'm a Mac boy.. If you can't tell.

[smoovemode]

Originally Posted by ShadowAMD

Trying not to be a sweeping generalist, you cannot go wrong with a MH - LIO8...

If you have issues with this interface, it's broken or it's you.

You never specified dollars or Euro's or GBP.. So I went for the most expensive version of 2500.. Because this is gearslutz..

I'm a Mac boy.. If you can't tell.

It looks great. But, it's a little bit over 2500.00. It looks like they go for 4000.00!

[smoovemode]

Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome

Well, I'll mention a few RME products, but there are many others, I'm just more familiar with RME, I like the company. The AIO (all in one), the RayDAT, the HDSPe AES, the FF800 or FF400, the Babyface... all have different feature sets and setups, consider them. I had the FF800, first bought for remotes but then used as the basic platform for my small 16 channel home setup. But if you only need 8 channels, the Babyface, newer technology, has a lot to recommend. Expanding either into better pres is easy. On the FF800 it was just a matter of plugging the new preamps into the line inputs. New converters are added via the ADAT ports, my Myteks plugged right in. Check the number of the various possibilities before you buy anything. I wanted 16 channels of 96k AES and I wanted to get off of firewire, which is why I switched from the FF800 to the HDSPe AES card.

I don't know anything about BL, I see them mentioned with equal amounts of reverence and scorn, and they're not really selling anything I am interested in owning so I've never looked very deeply into the company.

That sounds interesting...looking into it now!

[smoovemode]

OK, So we have the UFX, The Ensemble and the RME cards. Do the RME Card/Box combos have an advantage over the UFX and since the UFX is USB, is it prone to have more latency than the card based options?

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by smoovemode

OK, So we have the UFX, The Ensemble and the RME cards. Do the RME Card/Box combos have an advantage over the UFX and since the UFX is USB, is it prone to have more latency than the card based options?

The difference probably is going to me moot for your needs. A card-based solution is going to be able to pass more data. A card-based solution will be viable until they change card slots, and even after that for a while... many motherboards have (or had) combinations of PCI and PCIe slots, for example. I got rid of the Fireface800 because it appeared that the firewire port was an endangered species. (And I'm sure that a firewire card would be available, but I also wanted to use AES instead of ADAT.) But it appears to me that USB will remain supported for some time, so that shouldn't be an issue.

Based on what you have said you need though, I think this is massive overkill. On the other hand, the newer device supports TotalMix FX (do we need it? I'm not sure, but on the face of it it looks pretty cool.) and newer technology often trumps older technology in computer devices. Another reason that I dropped the FF800 was that it had features that I did not use, like the on-board converters and mic pres. Why pay for something you'll not use? If your needs are covered by the AIO or Babyface, why spend another $1200 or more? No knock on the UFX, just checking for appropriateness.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Oh, and check the specs. Like a lot of devices, many RME products halve the number of available channels when moving to 96k, and halve them again to get 192. I record at 96k a lot so that would matter to me. Might not matter to you.

[ShadowAMD]

Originally Posted by smoovemode

It looks great. But, it's a little bit over 2500.00. It looks like they go for 4000.00!

Ok LOL! I thought so, I would check out the Apogee Ensemble then.. If you have a Mac of course.

[smoovemode]

Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome

The difference probably is going to me moot for your needs. A card-based solution is going to be able to pass more data. A card-based solution will be viable until they change card slots, and even after that for a while... many motherboards have (or had) combinations of PCI and PCIe slots, for example. I got rid of the Fireface800 because it appeared that the firewire port was an endangered species. (And I'm sure that a firewire card would be available, but I also wanted to use AES instead of ADAT.) But it appears to me that USB will remain supported for some time, so that shouldn't be an issue.

Based on what you have said you need though, I think this is massive overkill. On the other hand, the newer device supports TotalMix FX (do we need it? I'm not sure, but on the face of it it looks pretty cool.) and newer technology often trumps older technology in computer devices. Another reason that I dropped the FF800 was that it had features that I did not use, like the on-board converters and mic pres. Why pay for something you'll not use? If your needs are covered by the AIO or Babyface, why spend another $1200 or more? No knock on the UFX, just checking for appropriateness.

My goal would be to attain impeccable sound quality at a manageable price. If the UFX will not sound any better than a lower priced card option, then it's a no brainer to get the card and add a preamp to it.


Question, Questions Questions!

The RME HDSPe RayDAT? Is it strictly digital on the inputs.

If I get a mic preamp, will I need to get one that has a AD card built in?

RME HDSPe RayDAT/ ISA 428 or ISA one vs Apogee Ensemble? which one will sound better?

Do you get good bottom end out of the RayDat?

Does RME have a card with the same or better sound quality with analog inputs?

I know this is way beyond what I need. But, I heard that USB can only pass 16 channels of audio. Is that true?

[smoovemode]

Originally Posted by ShadowAMD

Ok LOL! I thought so, I would check out the Apogee Ensemble then.. If you have a Mac of course.

Yes! I love my macs! The Ensemble keeps popping up as a choice. I almost bought one! But then people kept saying that the converter based options sound way better.

[smoovemode]

Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome

Oh, and check the specs. Like a lot of devices, many RME products halve the number of available channels when moving to 96k, and halve them again to get 192. I record at 96k a lot so that would matter to me. Might not matter to you.

Bill, What do you notice the most when you record at 96 and above? Is the sound noticeably more detailed and is it something you would only hear through audiophile systems or is it a difference on anything system. I always wondered about that. Do you use Pro Tools?

[ShadowAMD]

Originally Posted by smoovemode

Yes! I love my macs! The Ensemble keeps popping up as a choice. I almost bought one! But then people kept saying that the converter based options sound way better.

Who exactly are these people LOL?

Don't get me wrong, if you buy a Lavry or a Mytek.. The converters will be better.. But for the price of the ensemble you get converters only, plus then you have to go buy some decent pre's which at minimum $750.00 a pop for a daking.. It doesn't seem worth it to me.. Especially for some outboard pre's and a converter your then playing in the fields of the ULN-8 and Apogee Symphony which are serious pieces of kit.

In the chain of things, an Apogee's converters would be the least of my worries..

[smoovemode]

That does make sense. If the ensemble sounds as good as the RME/mic preamp combo, then it gets my vote.

[smoovemode]

Originally Posted by TheKnow

The UFX is BOTH firewire AND USB connectable...latency is NOT an issue as the monitor path is in Total mix....which is hardware monitoring...near zero latency...very good

Also the 12 channels in and out of the UFX record/playback @ 96 no problem...do it all the time....

I'm confident for what you are doing it can handle anything you can throw at it. PCIe cards are a different animal and require more attention (clocking, buffer settings, ditheretc) and can complicate things things...and aren't "better" sounding at all...they allow for a different set of variables.

Thanks for correcting my assumptions. Question... did you take a look at the the RME UCX as well and what made you choose RME over the Ensemble?

[ShadowAMD]

Originally Posted by smoovemode

Thanks for correcting my assumptions. Question... did you take a look at the the RME UCX as well and what made you choose RME over the Ensemble?

I have two places I record, one is a studio one is for home.

I trialled pretty much nearly every interface I could grab my hands on for my home studio, the UFX is great if your stuck with windows (Only tried it for 5 days)..

But for me, I don't know.. I bought a mac for home a few weeks ago.. Whenever I go into my main studio with a Mac and My MH-ULN8 it just feels like a creative place and it sounds fantastic.. I love it..

I tried the Ensemble and the Duet 2 for home, loved them both may I say but I ended up with the Duet2.. Just because I have a Roland TD at home and didn't need enough to record a full kit and it's just like a cut down version of the ensemble with some crazy spec's. They both have excellent sound quality and do exactly what I need.

As I say I have had or used Lavry, MH, Benchmark etc. etc.. I just don't think you can go wrong with any of them.. Even with the duet, I don't feel like I'm in the low end.. If I needed more in's and out's I would get an Ensemble in a heartbeat..

Duet 2 Artists > Apogee Electronics

All these people use them and you can't disagree with the pedigree of some of these engineers.

IMHO, in competition with other studios... I would be more frightened of an engineer with 15 years experience and a duet than someone with six months experience and a Neve console.

[ShadowAMD]

Originally Posted by TheKnow

RME products are better than Apogee products in general. ....but you have your sights set on an ensemble so...have at it!

Care to explain why?

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by smoovemode

If I get a mic preamp, will I need to get one that has a AD card built in?

Do you get good bottom end out of the RayDat?

"But, I heard that USB can only pass 16 channels of audio. Is that true?"

I don't know, it is a question for RME tech support and would also depend upon the sample rate.

In MY Opinion: most people, particularly working the low end, will never hear a difference between the RME converters and higher cost converters.

In My Opinion: Most anybody will hear a difference between the preamps used in most of these combo devices (all the way from bottom-cost units to very high end/high cost combo units) and a quality preamp from Daking, Hardy, what-have-you.

If you go back to my original suggestions, I'm not real hot on one box solutions. The guy that makes a great converter usually isn't the guy who makes a great preamp. Etc.

I would not buy a mic pre with an AD converter built into it. I bought Mytek converters and an assortment of mic pres. I'm not a fan of the ISA, but again that is my personal taste. I don't care much for Apogee either. Nothing wrong with them. (shrug.)

Bottom end is not lost or gained by passing through a RayDAT. The audio is already digital. Any quality issues are related to the converters and choice of format. (A lot of experienced guys say that they like AES better than ADAT, citing a loss of stereo separation/collapse of depth of field and similar complaints. I can't say one way or another, not having had an AES option in the same room with the same converters at the same time. I will quote with George Massenburg when he said, on an unrelated incident, "I'm perfectly willing to accept that what we're hearing is not caused by what we think it is. So what is causing what we are hearing? because too many of us hear it to deny that we are hearing it.")


anyway, nothing we've talked about here has anything to do with Mac or PC. I believe that the issue involving how much data you can cram down that pipe is why the ADAT-based interfaces have to cut channels to double the sampling rate.

So I guess you have to decide if you want a card based or outboard solution. Decide that and you'll cut your options, and make it easier to decide what you need. I'm still curious about your channel count needs though, because you start off saying your needs are modest, then are looking at a 30 channel interface. It doesn't matter, but it will be easier to cover the appropriate bases if we know what you want/need.

[cavern]

Originally Posted by smoovemode

OK, So we have the UFX, The Ensemble and the RME cards. Do the RME Card/Box combos have an advantage over the UFX and since the UFX is USB, is it prone to have more latency than the card based options?

The UFX is USB and Firewire.It has both connectors.

[smoovemode]

Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome

"But, I heard that USB can only pass 16 channels of audio. Is that true?"

I don't know, it is a question for RME tech support and would also depend upon the sample rate.

In MY Opinion: most people, particularly working the low end, will never hear a difference between the RME converters and higher cost converters.

In My Opinion: Most anybody will hear a difference between the preamps used in most of these combo devices (all the way from bottom-cost units to very high end/high cost combo units) and a quality preamp from Daking, Hardy, what-have-you.

If you go back to my original suggestions, I'm not real hot on one box solutions. The guy that makes a great converter usually isn't the guy who makes a great preamp. Etc.

I would not buy a mic pre with an AD converter built into it. I bought Mytek converters and an assortment of mic pres. I'm not a fan of the ISA, but again that is my personal taste. I don't care much for Apogee either. Nothing wrong with them. (shrug.)

Bottom end is not lost or gained by passing through a RayDAT. The audio is already digital. Any quality issues are related to the converters and choice of format. (A lot of experienced guys say that they like AES better than ADAT, citing a loss of stereo separation/collapse of depth of field and similar complaints. I can't say one way or another, not having had an AES option in the same room with the same converters at the same time. I will quote with George Massenburg when he said, on an unrelated incident, "I'm perfectly willing to accept that what we're hearing is not caused by what we think it is. So what is causing what we are hearing? because too many of us hear it to deny that we are hearing it.")


anyway, nothing we've talked about here has anything to do with Mac or PC. I believe that the issue involving how much data you can cram down that pipe is why the ADAT-based interfaces have to cut channels to double the sampling rate.

So I guess you have to decide if you want a card based or outboard solution. Decide that and you'll cut your options, and make it easier to decide what you need. I'm still curious about your channel count needs though, because you start off saying your needs are modest, then are looking at a 30 channel interface. It doesn't matter, but it will be easier to cover the appropriate bases if we know what you want/need.

My Channel needs are still modest. The only reason I'm considering units with more channels is for sound quality only. With the exception of separates (converter, mic pre, etc), it seems like the more you spend on quality, the most stuff they give you, as it pertains to audio interfaces. That's why I'm taking a close look at card based stuff as well. It seems like they give you more for the money. Instead of buying a 2000.00 converter which still needs a card of some sort to connect to your computer, I much prefer an 800.00 card that does the same thing as the converter box does. My only concern was sound quality.

If the new RME cards sound just as good or better than the UCX/UFX and cost half as much, I'm thinking I can buy the card and then use the money I saved and put it towards a nice preamp or two.

So, If a RME Card + Dedicated Mic Preamp will sound better than an Apogee Ensemble...I'm getting the RME card combo.

If there's a debate between the two, I would probably lean towards the ensemble just because it can be mobile as well.

If I did get an RME box, it would have to outperform the Ensemble and I would probably go with the UCX and not the UFX because I don't need all those inputs and could use the money I save towards a mic preamp, much like I would do with the card.

[ShadowAMD]

Originally Posted by TheKnow

no. Do what you want.

Lol enough said!

[ShadowAMD]

Originally Posted by smoovemode

My Channel needs are still modest. The only reason I'm considering units with more channels is for sound quality only. With the exception of separates (converter, mic pre, etc), it seems like the more you spend on quality, the most stuff they give you, as it pertains to audio interfaces. That's why I'm taking a close look at card based stuff as well. It seems like they give you more for the money. Instead of buying a 2000.00 converter which still needs a card of some sort to connect to your computer, I much prefer an 800.00 card that does the same thing as the converter box does. My only concern was sound quality.

If the new RME cards sound just as good or better than the UCX/UFX and cost half as much, I'm thinking I can buy the card and then use the money I saved and put it towards a nice preamp or two.

So, If a RME Card + Dedicated Mic Preamp will sound better than an Apogee Ensemble...I'm getting the RME card combo.

If there's a debate between the two, I would probably lean towards the ensemble just because it can be mobile as well.

If I did get an RME box, it would have to outperform the Ensemble and I would probably go with the UCX and not the UFX because I don't need all those inputs and could use the money I save towards a mic preamp, much like I would do with the card.

I had a Hammerfall, good card.. But seriously don't dismiss the Ensemble until you have tried it.. Get to a shop and compare the two, I drifted to the apogee side.

Bill knows his stuff, I do trust him.. But for all the consoles and gear I have used I am impressed with the Apogee stuff, best thing to do is try it and make up your own mind.

[smoovemode]

Originally Posted by ShadowAMD

I had a Hammerfall, good card.. But seriously don't dismiss the Ensemble until you have tried it.. Get to a shop and compare the two, I drifted to the apogee side.

Bill knows his stuff, I do trust him.. But for all the consoles and gear I have used I am impressed with the Apogee stuff, best thing to do is try it and make up your own mind.

Please tell me about your Hammerfall experience. What made you change to the apogee? It may help me make a decision either way.

[ShadowAMD]

Originally Posted by smoovemode

Please tell me about your Hammerfall experience. What made you change to the apogee? It may help me make a decision either way.

Honestly, it wasn't mobile.. Round the back of my PC was a mess so plugging stuff in was a pain.. Plus I had a radiator behind the PC so I kept singeing my head LOL..

It was good, like most RME it's technically very efficient just like German Cars.. but I like something a bit more exotic sounding..

I like super shiny, Hi Fidelity warm sounding songs..

Just my thing, other's may not like it.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by smoovemode

My Channel needs are still modest. The only reason I'm considering units with more channels is for sound quality only. With the exception of separates (converter, mic pre, etc), it seems like the more you spend on quality, the most stuff they give you, as it pertains to audio interfaces. ....

That is a contradictory statement, in that the more stuff that anybody offers for a given amount of money, the less each individual part could be worth.

Anyway, it appears that you are leaning towards a one box solution. Nothing wrong with that. But if you only need 8 channels, buy a simpler box for less money, and spend the difference on better converters, better mic pres, or just stick it in the bank.