Would a hardware compressor help me?

[joshcomley]

Here is my set up:

Audio Technica 3060 mic
SPL GainStation 1 (with digital out) preamp
RME FireFace 800 audio interface
Cubase 6

I sing and have reasonable mic technique, but sometimes I do feel a compressor will help give me more freedom in my vocal recording.

I've spend almost three hours hunting the web for information, searching forums etc. trying to find out:

A) What people consider a good vocal compressor
B) Do I need one
C) Where it would sit in my setup

I am happy to spend up to £500.

From my research, it initially looked like a TL Audio 5021 MKII was going to be a good bet. However, deeper research into various forums revealed a lack of enthusiasm for the unit.

Then the FMR RNC 1773 seems a good choice - but I'm worried it would become the weak link in my chain. I find the SPL GainStation 1 to be extremely good quality. Currently the weak link for me is my microphone which I will look to replace in the next 4 months.

Any advice would be much appreciated; I've tried to search as much as possible first but I now feel you guys could really provide the best help!!

Thanks a lot,
Josh

[Roland]

Short answer, No.

There are many reasons why, in the analogue tape days, a bit of compression was desirable to get a vocal down, however, with tape hiss not being an issue there is little real reason for it. The disadvantage of using compression during vocal recording is that you (or any other singer) get's a "false" sense of what they are doing dynamically and you can end up using sloppy mic technique. Also, once recorded, you can't take it off again.

Another point to ponder, is that there are several engineers and producer over the years who have gone on record as saying that they try to do away with vocal compression almost altogether in favour of detailed automation rides. Which ever camp you decide to be in, you can always compress after the event or, if you really feel you must, insert a software compressor on your Cubase channel and monitor back during recording. As long as you are not doing anything silly with plugin's whilst recording latency should be well within limits.

[joshcomley]

Hey Roland, cheers for the response.

The problem lies in that I seem to find it difficult to do one take with the quiet bits and the loud bits where I don't have to move so far away from the microphone that the loud bits can come out a bit distant or thin sounding.

I understand I cannot remove it once put in, but I see a good point there about having a false sense of dynamic.

I already post-compress, it's just being able to go wild on the microphone without too much care, that's all I want!

[Jimsi]

i would and have pre-compressed ...post would just enhance the any inherant noises....always good to compress pre on most anything , just dont over do it...MHO

[mikeyrad]

Yes

[Roland]

Originally Posted by Jimsi

i would and have pre-compressed ...post would just enhance the any inherant noises....always good to compress pre on most anything , just dont over do it...MHO

Not really, there is no need for it, unlike the potential problems we had with getting consistant levels onto tape, with digital it's a much better option to leave it until later, why limit your options if you don't have too?

[ProfessorNick]

If you use a really nice compressor and get the sound you want into your DAW, that can be a good thing. If it helps you perform better because of the way it sounds that is good to.
Is it necessary. Not really. If you record at 24 bits you should be able to monitor through a plugin compressor and leave all the mixing decisions for later. Don't worry about bringing the level in hot to maximize the signal noise ratio. Tape, yes; 24 bit DAW, not so much.

[Roland]

TL Audio compressor, best save his money!

[joshcomley]

Thanks for the pointers everyone.

I'm going to have a go with extreme compression on the monitor only and very low actual gain on the mic and see how that pans out. But ultimately I think I'll end up buying something like the Really Nice Compressor so I have a bit more freedom when I sing.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by joshcomley

Thanks for the pointers everyone.

I'm going to have a go with extreme compression on the monitor only and very low actual gain on the mic and see how that pans out. But ultimately I think I'll end up buying something like the Really Nice Compressor so I have a bit more freedom when I sing.

You don't need extreme compression. When tracking with a compressor you wouldn't normally be using anything stronger that 2:1 - 3:1 with only about 3- 8db of reduction. That is usually more than enough to hear clearly, if not, turn up the vocal in the mix.

[Jose]

Yes, it helps, adds character to the sound and make it more finished and easy to deal in a mix. IMO

People use compressors for a reason.

Take a look at the ART PRO VL II thread,

[ShadowAMD]

Originally Posted by Roland

Not really, there is no need for it, unlike the potential problems we had with getting consistant levels onto tape, with digital it's a much better option to leave it until later, why limit your options if you don't have too?

Harmonic nature of good outboard compressor can make a track easier to mix, save time with excessive automation and use sc to bring out desired frequencies. There are plenty of renowned engineers e.g. butch vig, pensado etc. Chris lord alge (especially Cla ) That still track with compressers.

I really disagree with your statement, if you like to do things the long and hard way.. potentially missing out on sonic signatures you desire, then I think its silly. PBC-6A in thick mode, for some low end compressor fun. Or even the classic La2a used on people like beyonce etc.

Your pretty much saying that they are all wrong (there are thousands more at least). If that's the case I don't want to be right.

Sent from my HTC Desire using Gearslutz.com

[Jimsi]

I 100% disagree, use it pre, maybe not over do it, pratice makes perfect, many professioanls precompress as does some who were on Gearslutz answering questions, always apply some.... but use a decent compressor, maybe the FMR PBC-6a or even a GAP Comp 54

Originally Posted by Roland

Not really, there is no need for it, unlike the potential problems we had with getting consistant levels onto tape, with digital it's a much better option to leave it until later, why limit your options if you don't have too?

[ShadowAMD]

Beat you too it .

Sent from my HTC Desire using Gearslutz.com

[Jimsi]

you beat me to it, i just read your comment....lol

Originally Posted by ShadowAMD

Beat you too it .

Sent from my HTC Desire using Gearslutz.com

[Roland]

Originally Posted by ShadowAMD

Harmonic nature of good outboard compressor can make a track easier to mix, save time with excessive automation and use sc to bring out desired frequencies. There are plenty of renowned engineers e.g. butch vig, pensado etc. Chris lord alge (especially Cla ) That still track with compressers.

I really disagree with your statement, if you like to do things the long and hard way.. potentially missing out on sonic signatures you desire, then I think its silly. PBC-6A in thick mode, for some low end compressor fun. Or even the classic La2a used on people like beyonce etc.

Your pretty much saying that they are all wrong (there are thousands more at least). If that's the case I don't want to be right.

Sent from my HTC Desire using Gearslutz.com

To get the "character" compression, you need to hit pretty hard, that's certainly not what you want to do when tracking.

Additionally the original poster was talking about $500 and a TL Audio compressor, both of which are not going to buy you the sort of compressors that CLA, Tony Maserati, Butch Vig, etc, use.

A better option (at the op's price point) would be to buy some good plugin's and use them post recording. Ok, this is not quite the way that CLA maybe doing things, but it will get 90-95% of the effect at an affordable price, the CLA method requires £1,000's worth of choice, vintage compressors and the absolute knowledge of how to use them correctly and why.

Another factor is that the OP is recording his own voice, it's impossible to accurately "hear" what the compressor's character is doing whilst he is singing, that coupled with the fact that it will effect the way he sings are good enough reasons to try and leave it too later.

What has to be remembered is that these techniques had to be used years ago as even a well equipped studio probably only had 5-8 compressors in the room, with modern DAW's this isn't the case any more.

[24track]

work on your skills............hardware / software......no matter

[Zachariah]

Why would you compress before tracking? What if you mess it up? What if you mix it and at the end you say there is way too much compression on this!?

Roland is right, back in the day there was a need to record hot, but nowadays, it's not necessary. When I record my level barely touches -6db.

On top of that, if you get your levels right to record, and throw a compressor on your insert track while recording, you're still hearing the compressor, but it's not being compressed in the recording. It's compressed after the fact but your still hearing it! This allows you to tweak as needed without sacrificing the quality and dynamics of the source!

[ShadowAMD]

Originally Posted by Roland

To get the "character" compression, you need to hit pretty hard, that's certainly not what you want to do when tracking.

Additionally the original poster was talking about $500 and a TL Audio compressor, both of which are not going to buy you the sort of compressors that CLA, Tony Maserati, Butch Vig, etc, use.

A better option (at the op's price point) would be to buy some good plugin's and use them post recording. Ok, this is not quite the way that CLA maybe doing things, but it will get 90-95% of the effect at an affordable price, the CLA method requires £1,000's worth of choice, vintage compressors and the absolute knowledge of how to use them correctly and why.

Another factor is that the OP is recording his own voice, it's impossible to accurately "hear" what the compressor's character is doing whilst he is singing, that coupled with the fact that it will effect the way he sings are good enough reasons to try and leave it too later.

What has to be remembered is that these techniques had to be used years ago as even a well equipped studio probably only had 5-8 compressors in the room, with modern DAW's this isn't the case any more.

I have a PBC-6A, I can track all day long with this piece of kit! Why couldn't he? Also what about the amount of people on Drawmers? The DBX's cost nothing and used all over the place by professionals alike.. Whilst I can see what your saying. It's not the same, throw as much UAD as you like... It's just not the same.

This is coming from a guy that want's all my current HW / future purchases to be replaced because it cost's me a fortune, It saves credit card bill arguments " A little " with the wife and I'll stop running out of space.

[aclarson]

As usual, everybody in the "don't use an analog compressor" camp neglects the effect on the performer. It's understandable, I suppose many GS users are just engineers and not artists.

I find when tracking vox, I do about 1/2 to 1/3 as many takes with an outboard compressor because hearing the realtime compression while tracking allows me to intonate better, and hearing a more finished sound makes me get more excited, and thus, rock more. I use the Pro VLA II, and as Roland stated above, I usually have it at a low ratio, 2-8 dB of GR max.

Always sounds nicer than without it.

Now, I've compared my Pro VLA and plugs on stuff after the fact, and it's a win-some, lose-some situation. I can get some great results with plugins, and all things being equal, they are much more versatile. But I still always end up with better results using the VLA on the way in on vocals.

As people always say here on GS, nothing is more important than the source, and if your source is more comfortable tracking with compression, than that's going to make more of difference on your recording than the relative sonic merits of analog vs plugin. Maybe some performers don't care and it makes no difference, but one thing about all those classic albums where they had to use it is that THOSE performers had it there on the way in. Would those performances have been as good without it? Maybe this is a thing that's missing from the modern studio, and for the wrong reasons.

[ShadowAMD]

Originally Posted by aclarson

As usual, everybody in the "don't use an analog compressor" camp neglects the effect on the performer. It's understandable, I suppose many GS users are just engineers and not artists.

I find when tracking vox, I do about 1/2 to 1/3 as many takes with an outboard compressor because hearing the realtime compression while tracking allows me to intonate better, and hearing a more finished sound makes me get more excited, and thus, rock more. I use the Pro VLA II, and as Roland stated above, I usually have it at a low ratio, 2-8 dB of GR max.

Always sounds nicer than without it.

Now, I've compared my Pro VLA and plugs on stuff after the fact, and it's a win-some, lose-some situation. I can get some great results with plugins, and all things being equal, they are much more versatile. But I still always end up with better results using the VLA on the way in on vocals.

As people always say here on GS, nothing is more important than the source, and if your source is more comfortable tracking with compression, than that's going to make more of difference on your recording than the relative sonic merits of analog vs plugin. Maybe some performers don't care and it makes no difference, but one thing about all those classic albums where they had to use it is that THOSE performers had it there on the way in. Would those performances have been as good without it? Maybe this is a thing that's missing from the modern studio, and for the wrong reasons.

You can monitor with ITB compression ya know?

[aclarson]

Originally Posted by ShadowAMD

You can monitor with ITB compression ya know?

Yeah, if you want annoying latency. That's worse than not having the compression.

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by Roland

To get the "character" compression, you need to hit pretty hard, that's certainly not what you want to do when tracking.

Additionally the original poster was talking about $500 and a TL Audio compressor, both of which are not going to buy you the sort of compressors that CLA, Tony Maserati, Butch Vig, etc, use.

A better option (at the op's price point) would be to buy some good plugin's and use them post recording. Ok, this is not quite the way that CLA maybe doing things, but it will get 90-95% of the effect at an affordable price, the CLA method requires £1,000's worth of choice, vintage compressors and the absolute knowledge of how to use them correctly and why.

Another factor is that the OP is recording his own voice, it's impossible to accurately "hear" what the compressor's character is doing whilst he is singing, that coupled with the fact that it will effect the way he sings are good enough reasons to try and leave it too later.

What has to be remembered is that these techniques had to be used years ago as even a well equipped studio probably only had 5-8 compressors in the room, with modern DAW's this isn't the case any more.

I agree that you're not going to find a character compressor cheap, however what a compressor really should do is help bring out the CHARACTER of your voice and performance. A good quality compressor like an Aphex 651 can be found on the used market cheap, and it wont degrade your audio.
I engineer for a living, when I get a track that wasn't compressed on the way in, I have to compress it harder, and the rides are much bigger and take much more time. A little compression on the way goes a long way and makes the process easier and better sounding.

[Roland]

Latency below 5ms is perfectly achievable these days, (less with things like Pro Tools HD), this is equivelant to about 5 ft, about the same as a Wedge monitor on a PA.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

I agree that you're not going to find a character compressor cheap, however what a compressor really should do is help bring out the CHARACTER of your voice and performance. A good quality compressor like an Aphex 651 can be found on the used market cheap, and it wont degrade your audio.
I engineer for a living, when I get a track that wasn't compressed on the way in, I have to compress it harder, and the rides are much bigger and take much more time. A little compression on the way goes a long way and makes the process easier and better sounding.

you could of course compress it twice, once with a subtle 2:1 3-6db reduction on a soft knee, then again to get your "sound", I've done this quite a lot too good effect.

[ShadowAMD]

Originally Posted by aclarson

Yeah, if you want annoying latency. That's worse than not having the compression.

Latency I get is next to nothing, never have issues.

Also there is latency compensation.

[ShadowAMD]

Originally Posted by Roland

Latency below 5ms is perfectly achievable these days, (less with things like Pro Tools HD), this is equivelant to about 5 ft, about the same as a Wedge monitor on a PA.

Yeah duet does it @ 3.6ms or 5.8 on minimum settings.

Not hard, would still prefer a real compressor though..

[Ephi82]

I believe that some gentle compression (2-3:1 , soft knee 2db gain) on tracked vocals is the way to go. (and a slightly higher ratio for backups)

This gives me tracks that are already sitting in the mix at playback, and sound great. Less work for me.

if you dont have much money now, start saving some, and use an in-expensive plug ITB and learn how to compress. This requires practice and ear training.

If you have some money, I think hardware comps are the way to go, lots of great choices. In most cases, you get what you pay for. I have the FMR PBC and its simply great, and not very expensive. (I also have FMR RNC, dont use it anymore)

[Unclenny]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

A little compression on the way goes a long way and makes the process easier and better sounding.

Plus....it's fun getting that compressor dialed in so well that when you pull up the mix that vocal track is sitting right where it belongs without the use of a plug.

To answer the question specifically......I think a hardware compressor would help you understand how compression is modifying you voice. By singing 'to' the compressor and working it you may get a better feel for how you need to perform to get things sitting better.

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by Unclenny

Plus....it's fun getting that compressor dialed in so well that when you pull up the mix that vocal track is sitting right where it belongs without the use of a plug.

To answer the question specifically......I think a hardware compressor would help you understand how compression is modifying you voice. By singing 'to' the compressor and working it you may get a better feel for how you need to perform to get things sitting better.

personally I find you always need to compress in the mix, but I don't use plugs anyway for that. I also find if you compress on the way in, you don't need to hit it so hard in the mix and rides are easier. I mix on an analog console with moving fader automation.