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Mix sounds muddy on m audio 2496, should I go for a better audio interface?
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jithendra
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18th January 2012
Old 18th January 2012
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Mix sounds muddy on m audio 2496, should I go for a better audio interface?

Hi friends I have been mixing with m audio 2496 for 2 years now. My Mix always sounds muddy when heard on other speakers. Should I be changing my Audio Interface. Recently I got Yamaha HS 50M Monitors. I don't need many inputs and outputs. I will mostly only be mixing on these. Here are my specs

Audiophile 2496

Yamaha HS50M Monitors

Behringer Xenyx 502 mixer

pl help me because when I go to a shop they say higher the cost the better the sound I will get, which I don't think is completely true.

Thanks for reading and helping
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18th January 2012
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I'm no accoustician. Unfortunately, every room is unique and have different accoustic properties. Some general things to try out for mixing room accoustics are;

1) Finding the right place for your monitors and the listening sweet spot (the "38% rule" is a good starting point).

2) Minimising direct reflections (ceiling and wall to wall). Sit in your sweetspot and have a friend run a mirror across the walls and ceiling. Anywhere where you can see the reflection of your monitors in the mirror should be treated with absorptive material.

3) Bass trapping. Most people agree that it is wise to get as much bass trapping as possible, especially in small rooms. This usually means treating EVERY corner surface of your room; wall to wall and ceiling to wall. It is a lot less expensive to build your bass traps from scratch, but it is quite a bit of work. Just get as many of them as possible, and make them at least 4 inches (10cm) thick.

4) Get some alternative mid range monitors, like the Avantones. And some decent head phones.

5) Keep listening to your mixes in other environments, on other systems, and understand how your room is biasing your mixes, and then compensate. It is almost impossible to get completely reliable mixing accoustics in any non-purpose built room, and we all have to compensate to some degree. Get to know your room.
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18th January 2012
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if you can't get it sounding great with a 2496 thenyou're doing something wrong.

the difference between that and pro level audio interfaces is subtle. it's there, but it's not like "OMG I can't handle using this junk" sort of different. and dark isn't what I'd say about the 24/96.

it's a solid chipset.

things like you're describing sound like iether your listening or mixing room or just lack of mixing experience (no harm intended here... just that it seems like the most probably cause to me).
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19th January 2012
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Thanks

Thank you so much Amun ra and dkelley.

I will try to do all the things you said, but these bass traps seems to be very expensive in my area, that is why I have not got my room treated. can you tell me a very basic level of room treatment. I can't afford like $1000 on room treatment. May be I can spend $400, as of now. I am using Shure Srh 440 headphones.

And thanks so much for telling me that my skills need to be improved because it only need my dedication and not money. I asked this question because people who give me projects tell me that 24/96 is not accepted as a standard.

Thanks again
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19th January 2012
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Listen to some good reference CD's on your speakers. How do they sound compared to your mixes on the same speakers, same mix position?
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19th January 2012
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We're considering attaching custom curtain rods at the top of each wall in our 10x10 space and hanging heavy fabric (valour) with rings - then use standard 12"x12" foam treatment squares for the ceiling surface area.

We're thinking that's going to essentially create a black hole for reflections, are we daft?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anna_britbass88 View Post
We're considering attaching custom curtain rods at the top of each wall in our 10x10 space and hanging heavy fabric (valour) with rings - then use standard 12"x12" foam treatment squares for the ceiling surface area.

We're thinking that's going to essentially create a black hole for reflections, are we daft?
That won't do much for the lower frequencies. It will SEEM better, but traps or broadband absorbers will be required as well.

OP: do a search on DIY broadband absorbers or bass traps. They are not hard to make and are quite inexpensive.
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19th January 2012
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If your room is a problem and you can't get yourself some bass traps or absorbers, get a decent pair of headphones and get the ToneBoosters Isone plugin, which performs a similar function to the Focusrite VRM box in modelling speakers, allowing your headphone mixes to sound more like they are coming out of monitors in a room.

It may take some adjusting, but for £20 its a no-brainer. I have used it and its great once you have set it right. All you have to do is look in your monitor manual and see if you can find a freq response chart, then in your DAW use a pink noise generator and on your master bus insert Isone and a spectrum analyser like Voxengo SPAN (Freeware) and try to match the charts using SPAN as a reference and you are away.

There are some detailed posts on GS about this plugin, if you search the forums you may find out some more stuff. Just might be a cheaper alternative.
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19th January 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jithendra View Post
Thank you so much Amun ra and dkelley.

I will try to do all the things you said, but these bass traps seems to be very expensive in my area, that is why I have not got my room treated. can you tell me a very basic level of room treatment. I can't afford like $1000 on room treatment. May be I can spend $400, as of now. I am using Shure Srh 440 headphones.

And thanks so much for telling me that my skills need to be improved because it only need my dedication and not money. I asked this question because people who give me projects tell me that 24/96 is not accepted as a standard.

Thanks again
well exactly, I'm happy you saw my reasoning there. it's free to experiment and try to alter your mixing style.

the mixing skills are MOST of a person's sound because now that you know your mixes sound dull or whatever you can compensate for that and make them sound too bright to your ears and then see how they translate.

I also STRONGLY suggest you post a mix that has received this complaint on here and people can take a listen to give honest feedback about the brightness and so on. Then if you try remixing something, or on your next mix, post it here FIRST, and we'll see if you've compensated effectively, not enough, or too much, and so on.

That may help you to "learn" the issues with your current room and monitors.

the 24/96 is fine. I used one many times years ago. it's not a "standard" hahaha, whatever. neither is the soundblaster. but I've mixed projects on a soundblaster 16 (many years ago...) that had plenty of local town radioplay without any comments about sound quality problems.

and the 24/96 BLOWS it out of the water.

imho sound cards and audio interfaces get WAY too much attention here.

the differences between them audbily exist on rare occasions but for the most part humans can't truly hear the difference between them reliably. certainly not to the point of having this type of feedback about your mixes being dull or harsh or anything.

don't fret it. the card is fine. room needs help but it's VERY challenging and yes can cost $$$ to solve some of the problems there. but if you spend $1000 on a super nice audio itnerface your mixes will still sound the same probably, but if you spend $300 on 4 bass traps made by some local guy for $75 each (the going price for a bass trap builder who advertises on my local craigslist...) then you will be getting closer to the sound you want. STILL not enough though. $1000 on room improvements are radically cool though so THAT is certainly something to start saving up for over the next year or whatever if you want to keep doing this. it's worth it and live improves so much when you can hear things right. To me it's shocking the difference in sound just talking in a room that is well treated... and any speakers sound miles better in a treated room, even $50 radio shack stereos.

If you have a pair available you could also reference your mixes on a pair of decent headphones, a/b between them sometimes, but still spend most of your mixing time on your speakers since headphone mixing can result in strange sound at times.

But really, when I was learning how to do this, I would simply change my mixing sound after I heard negative feedback or, more often, heard my mix sound bad on someone else's stereo (when I'd make a mental note to remix it that night when I got home but wouldn't bother telling them how bad their stereo sounds LoL).

cheers
good luck!
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19th January 2012
Old 19th January 2012
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Thanks

thanks so much mdf25. Ill evaluate that product.

dkelley, thank you so much for giving me hope. I think ill be saving for bass traps then. I have been trying to mix on Shure srh 440 headphones, but it is very difficult for me to judge a lot of things with it. I am posting a song that I have mixed. Pl give me your valuable feedback. Pl bare with me as the song is in the local language.

Love chennai by jithendra on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

Thanks again.
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19th January 2012
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interesting!

I'm not listening in my studio, I'm on average headphones away from my home, but I can hear it enough to at least start thinking about the issues you're describing.

Firstly... keep one thing in mind. your monitors have detail in the upper frequencies that don't exist on most people's average stereos or on earbuds for ipods. So you need to embrace the brightness you hear in your monitors when mixing and don't try to mix it out quite so much.

Since most of your sounds are, I think, from soft synths, one definitely can't say that the 24/96 has any audible effect on the output since you're probably taking softsynth and digitally rendering it into your final mix, right? digitally mixing in the box? So any artifacts we're hearing are either mp3 (possible but unlikely in what I'm hearing) or just somehow you are taking down the sizzle element in your mix a little too much.

It almost could do with an exciter or something to add some highs to it.

What's particularly interesting to me is how it has a rather fake-analog feel to the sound. it misses highs in the same way a cassette on a cheap cassette deck used to sound on the average home stereo.

So I think maybe what you should be doing in your mixing is artificially (to your ears in your room on your monitors) enhancing the highs to the point of being a little sizzly.

This, sadly, is true in almost every mixing situation even in big studios.

Bands get hit with this effect all the time because studio monitors tend to show more HF information than most home stereos, and alos more accurate deep bass than most home stereos. So when you take hte mix out of the studio it sounds middy... dull.

So in the studio you have to almost over-emphasize the smiley curve a little bit...

I did some quick, dirty processing. I'm SURE it's clipping in my mix, I didn't care about that and don't have time/resources to do this right, but I did some eqing and a little harmonic enhancer on this to make it have an eq I would personally prefer for a typical stereo playback system.

I'm NOT on monitors, NOT using my regular daw, and NO doing this properly LoL, but it does prove that the HF energy is in there ok, just needed to be cranked up.

Most of hte improvement is simply from a tiny bit of bass boost and rather a lot of HF boost (maybe too much, but I was trying to prove that it could be done). I think it was something like 6 or 8 db of HF shelf I added, probably starting somewhere around 6k or so.

take a listen... it might help you decide what to change in your EQing yourself when mixing (like add several db more output around 7k or so on up imho).

again, sorry that hte mp3 is probably clipping. if you actually like what I did I can do it right, but it's really just to help you see if you can find what you're missing in your mix.
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19th January 2012
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by the way, aside from being double tracked, what effect are you using on the lead vocal? I like it...
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19th January 2012
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Haven't read all the posts so not sure if this has been covered...

A muddy mix to me seems more of how you are mixing then what you are mixing on. Generally speaking the "mud" frequencies are around 200-400. Just to do a quick test... try and cut a db or two of those frequncies on your master fader and see if that renders your mix less muddy. If it does you may want to individually go to trouble some tracks like overheads that would be filling up those frequencies with unneeded gunk.

And also to add clarity you may try boosting around the 2k-5k range on the master track can help vocals cut through and please under stand this is grossly over simplized but just some ideas.

Just a quick, my two cents reply.
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19th January 2012
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How do other commercial mixes sound on your system? Try to reference to other cd's while your mixing to see if it's something lacking in your mix
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19th January 2012
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19th January 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jithendra View Post
Hi Amun ra thanks for the input.

Will this be sufficient for a 10/9 room.

Primacoustic Acoustic Solutions

Thanks
I've have that one, my room is 8 by 11ft and it helped quite a lot. I still do have some issues with the low - lowmid frequencies!

Talk to Glenn Kuras at GIK Acoustics.
Helpful dude...
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19th January 2012
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Check the acoustics section here. Lots of good info on easy DIY absorbers.
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20th January 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkelley View Post
interesting!

I'm not listening in my studio, I'm on average headphones away from my home, but I can hear it enough to at least start thinking about the issues you're describing.

Firstly... keep one thing in mind. your monitors have detail in the upper frequencies that don't exist on most people's average stereos or on earbuds for ipods. So you need to embrace the brightness you hear in your monitors when mixing and don't try to mix it out quite so much.

Since most of your sounds are, I think, from soft synths, one definitely can't say that the 24/96 has any audible effect on the output since you're probably taking softsynth and digitally rendering it into your final mix, right? digitally mixing in the box? So any artifacts we're hearing are either mp3 (possible but unlikely in what I'm hearing) or just somehow you are taking down the sizzle element in your mix a little too much.

It almost could do with an exciter or something to add some highs to it.

What's particularly interesting to me is how it has a rather fake-analog feel to the sound. it misses highs in the same way a cassette on a cheap cassette deck used to sound on the average home stereo.

So I think maybe what you should be doing in your mixing is artificially (to your ears in your room on your monitors) enhancing the highs to the point of being a little sizzly.

This, sadly, is true in almost every mixing situation even in big studios.

Bands get hit with this effect all the time because studio monitors tend to show more HF information than most home stereos, and alos more accurate deep bass than most home stereos. So when you take hte mix out of the studio it sounds middy... dull.

So in the studio you have to almost over-emphasize the smiley curve a little bit...

I did some quick, dirty processing. I'm SURE it's clipping in my mix, I didn't care about that and don't have time/resources to do this right, but I did some eqing and a little harmonic enhancer on this to make it have an eq I would personally prefer for a typical stereo playback system.

I'm NOT on monitors, NOT using my regular daw, and NO doing this properly LoL, but it does prove that the HF energy is in there ok, just needed to be cranked up.

Most of hte improvement is simply from a tiny bit of bass boost and rather a lot of HF boost (maybe too much, but I was trying to prove that it could be done). I think it was something like 6 or 8 db of HF shelf I added, probably starting somewhere around 6k or so.

take a listen... it might help you decide what to change in your EQing yourself when mixing (like add several db more output around 7k or so on up imho).

again, sorry that hte mp3 is probably clipping. if you actually like what I did I can do it right, but it's really just to help you see if you can find what you're missing in your mix.
All that extra high end drives me nut's, but take it out convert it to MP3 sit down with your laptop and you wonder why your sheen has dissipated.

To the OP, this is why we treat our rooms HF bouncing around all over the place just adds fuel to the fire.
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20th January 2012
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You might find it helpful to read a book called Mixing Secrets - For the Small Studio: By Mike Senior.

It contains a lot of answers and focus points that can help you understand
what makes the biggest difference's in a Studio.


As for changing stuff around...I would follow the advice of fixing your room up to sound as best as it can with the budget you have. Your gear is fine for now.

Then I would get some of your favorite tracks to help you hear what mixes you really like sound on your monitor - that will give you a reference/comparison point for your own mixes.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Papanate View Post
You might find it helpful to read a book called Mixing Secrets - For the Small Studio: By Mike Senior.

It contains a lot of answers and focus points that can help you understand
what makes the biggest difference's in a Studio.


As for changing stuff around...I would follow the advice of fixing your room up to sound as best as it can with the budget you have. Your gear is fine for now.

Then I would get some of your favorite tracks to help you hear what mixes you really like sound on your monitor - that will give you a reference/comparison point for your own mixes.
Make sure they are good one's though, you start to hear how bad some other mixes / master's are.

Some of the tracks I love, I can't listen to in the studio.
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20th January 2012
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Thanks everyone for their valuable inputs. Ill try working out the song based on your comments.

Thanks dkelley, that was really good but was a slightly overwhelming hf I guess.

And as for the vocals, I used a slight delay, compressor, eq, antares harmony, engine.

Actually its so nice of you all to have helped me. I have not done formal education in this. Its people like you who guided me till here Thanks all !

Good news is that, I have found a place where they sell used rockwool from refridgerater. it has made it possible for me to build a bass trap for $20. am going to do 16 bass traps in all.

The dimensions of the bass traps are 4 feet by 2 feet with 15mm depth. I think this will solve my problems to some extent. Will It?
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21st January 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jithendra View Post
The dimensions of the bass traps are 4 feet by 2 feet with 15mm depth. I think this will solve my problems to some extent. Will It?
Unfortunately no. It will deaden the room a bit at the high mids, but for it to be effective at lessening modal ringing at lower frequencies they will need to be at least 10cm thick. You can stack them though.
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22nd January 2012
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Usually such mix issues relate to the following:

1) monitor and analog cabling frequency response problems
2) mix technique problems
3) acoustic room problems
4) mix level and ear fatigue/damage problems
5) tune/song composition issues
6) any other hearing/inner ear/audiology type of issues

I don't include the M-Audio 2496 Delta Audiophile interface as a source of muddiness problems because it has been successfully sold longer than most of it's similarly-priced competitors as a relatively wide and flat and low-noise/low-distortion interface. I also use that same interface without those problems if I mix correctly and under the right circumstances. Plenty of others use that same interface without problems.
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22nd January 2012
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So I will make 12, 10cm deep bass traps, will that be sufficient for a 10*9 room. when I clap i get this horrible flutter. will that be gone if I do this.

Thanks
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22nd January 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jithendra View Post
So I will make 12, 10cm deep bass traps, will that be sufficient for a 10*9 room. when I clap i get this horrible flutter. will that be gone if I do this.

Thanks
That's, surprisingly, known as a flutter echo - no wonder you're having top end issues!

Caused by parallel hard surfaces reflecting higher frequencies - and is the sort of thing proper acoustic foam can help with (although bass trapping certainly won't hurt).
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23rd January 2012
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Hi
Analogue cabling will not cause this amount of problem in such a small room (short cables). If you were sending signals to your mate 5 miles away and back THEN you would have problems with the cable.
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23rd January 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astroidmist View Post
Usually such mix issues relate to the following:

1) monitor and analog cabling frequency response problems
2) mix technique problems
3) acoustic room problems
4) mix level and ear fatigue/damage problems
5) tune/song composition issues
6) any other hearing/inner ear/audiology type of issues
other than my feeling that cables aren't likely to reduce frequency response unless they're utter crap, I completely agree with this list and the order of priority here.

Monitor frequency response problems but also just learn your monitors.

then mix technique problems.

and finally room acoustics that you are planning to treat.

There is no reason why you can't alter how you mix and learn to hear it differently on your monitors and through your phones to provide brighter mixes.

My mp3 posting was, as I pointed out, just to prove that the HF content DOES exist in your mix, which says it's a problem with how you're mixing it or processing it yourself rather than a problem with your source material.

So focus on what you have already by learning the monitors better and trying to mix differently. Yes, improve your room acoustics of course, but you have to teach yourself to approve the mix with more HF energy in it than you currently are accustomed to thinking is "right". You will have to do this no matter what you do with your room, so you might as well focus on it right now while you plan on your room improvements.

and yes, flutter echo is a serious problem that you must solve quickly.

you don't need fancy bass traps or full frequency traps (I mean, you DO need them but not as URGENTLY as you think right now) because you are already mixing shy on HF output. So if you solve flutter echo with simple acoustic foam, just to get it up quickly by pinning it (with straight pins) to your walls, you will immediately reduce flutter echo cheaply and quickly and you will also reduce the excess HF energy in your room (and ONLY the HF energy because that is all foam will affect), which will improve how you hear your mixes.

And by the way, while my mp3 version was just a speck too bright, it is only arguably too bright. On my consumer cheap headphones it sounds miles better than your original version sounded. Which again tells me that you aren't used to hearing lots of HF energy out of yoru monitors and you'll have to get used to it since great mixes will certainly have more HF energy than what you originally sent us.
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