pre amp/interface with ribbon mic on budget

[zenben]

I'm relatively new to home recording beyond D.I. and I'm interested in getting into ribbons, primarily for (clean) elec and acoustic guitar work for their unique sound quality and added warmth. Problem is, I don't have the gear that connects the mic to my PC for recording. In the past, I've used a sure sm57 with an XLR to 1/4th inch cable, and then used a 3.5mm adapter to plug it into the input of my soundblaster sound card...e.g totally ghetto low end setup. The sound quality was pretty bad, but for jotting down riffs and ideas in Audacity, it worked in a pinch. I'd like to take my recording abilities to the next level, but I'm pretty strapped for cash after buying some new instruments recently. I'm willing to pay up to $200 for a good entry-level ribbon mic and really like the cascade fathead and vin-jet, but without a pre amp or DAW interface, I realize I won't be able to apprecaite my new mic...I'm hoping there is a way to go from a ribbon mic to my PC for around $150-$200 and not completely lose the beauty of the ribbon microphone sound by staying in my budget. Keep in mind, I'm not a pro engineer in any stretch of the imagination, and the stuff I record will be primarily for myself and my friends to multi-track through audacity. I'm not trying to make a professional album per-se, but I want to enjoy listening to it.

I did about 20 hours of research over the last few days on gearsultz, and have some possible solutions, but would really appreciate others' experience/expertise.

Could I go with something like the blue icicle with the vin-jet since it's an active ribbon and doesn't need the big gain boost like the passive fathead, or am I better off saving some money on the mic and going with the fathead so I can purchase a higher quality pre amp? Is there a cost-effective way to solve both the missing pre amp and DAW interface with one piece of equipment besides the blue icicle or similar XLR to USB device, or am I going to save cash and improve performance by purchasing 2 seperate units? Any direction would be appreciated. I'm not at all opposed to used gear, and the only other gear I have which may be in the chain is a Jam Man Solo loop pedal, a digitech guitar processor, and a Carvin Vintage 16 tube amp with a Celestian 30.

[TimOBrienFlorida]

Please stay away from usb mic converters. Get a regular usb interface.
They're made mostly for podcasting (internet chat radio)
Not as good analog>digital converters (cheaper chips)
You'll have problems monitoring for track overlays
you wont be able to use anything else with it (asio only lets you use 1 device at a time)
short usb cords will put more computer noise into recordings

With low-to-average priced interfaces you might also run into the problem that the pre-amps may not be strong enough for ribbons (they need a LOT) of gain. Consider budgeting $100-150 for a Cloudlifter or Triton Audio Fethead, which gice ribbon mics an extra 20-25db of clean gain so you dont have to crank the interface preamps up so high they introduce lots of noise....

[Chrisc_o]

If you're new I wouldn't be so quick to limit your options in terms of mics. Get a versatile set-up that's easy to use and gain experience first. "Warmth" can be obtained in so many different ways that I'm concerned that you're missing the big picture.

Why not focus on a "clean" recording of a "warm" guitar? That can be done with low-cost recording gear, provided you have a warm-sounding instrument, and a good sounding room, and can make the instrument do what you want it to.

[zenben]

Thanks for the feedback. I'll take a look at the Cloudlifter and Triton Audio Fethead.
I'm starting to realize that if I want to do this right and be satisfied with my recordings, I may have to spend more dough than I first anticipated. It's a good point that ribbon mics are not the only way achieve a good sound, and even though they are more affordable then ever right now, I'm concerned that I'll spend so much on a good pre amp and interface that I won't have any left over for the mic! I have been keeping my eye out for good deals on ebay and CL lately and have come across some pre-amps that might meet my needs. However, the majority are analog devices and would require a separate interface to connect to my PC. If I get a good pre-amp will an inexpensive/simple interface create a kind of bottleneck in the chain? I know I need a lot of extra clean gain in the pre-amp for a ribbon mic, but are there specs I should be looking for in interfaces as well? If I would need to get a high end pre-amp AND an expensive interface to make a ribbon mic worth while, I need to start looking into other ways to get the sound I want.


What would be the least expensive way to interface pre-amps like the following without losing all they have to offer (if possible)? Would any of these be compatible with a ribbon? Which would you prefer?

Studio Projects VTB1 Variable Tube Preamp-my top choice so far-found a used one semi-locally for $50!

M Audio DMP3 Tube Pre Amp

Presonus Eureka pre amp and compressor-more $ than I planned on spending, but looks like it would meet my needs

Rane MS1A microphone preamplifier-very reasonable $, looks retro

ART Tube Pac Microphone Pre-Amp & Compressor
ART PROchannel TUBE pre-amp

I also found these interfaces that both have built in pre-amps (though probably not that great). Would any of them work with a ribbon mic, or would I have to get a stronger pre-amp? (Or diff mic) with these units?

Lexicon I-ONIX U82S USB 2.0

Alesis iO|2

Any experience using the above products, especially with a ribbon mic, would be very appreciated. I'm also not ruling out something like the golden age R-1 active ribbon mic with a simple interface with built in pre-amps-this would work, no?

[changeng]

I don't think the Vin-Jet is an active ribbon. The only cheap one I know of is the GAP R1mk3. I just wrote a review of it in the review section if you're interested - $200 and it sounds great! Getting a regular ribbon will require a couldlifter which adds $100 to your mic price.

Unless I didn't see it, you still don't have a proper interface into your 'puter. You can go on the cheap and get something from the M-Audio Delta series (different amount of ins and outs) that will serve you well to start with. The Delta 44

Cheap preamp - the Rane MS1-b can be found used and really cheap and sounds decent (or the current one which you mentioned). Another way to go would be to find a small used Soundcraft board - the Compact 4 or the Notepad124 both have decent clean preamps with built-in phantom power.

You can find all these things for a combined cost of around $500, maybe less if used. Definitely enough to get you going, but beware! You'll want to upgrade constantly once the bug gets you.

[zenben]

Thats correct still need an interface or some type of A/D converter.

Anyone know if the A&H ZED 10fx has enough clean gain for a ribbon? I'm thinking I'd prefer an all in one unit to a sound card and rack or strip unit pre amp if nothing else just to save space but it would have to have decent pre amps. I like the idea of providing versitility to my rig so I can add dif mics or try a stereo set up or somethung without needing more new gear. Any other suggestions I should check out?

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[gravyface]

Originally Posted by zenben

Thats correct still need an interface or some type of A/D converter.

Anyone know if the A&H ZED 10fx has enough clean gain for a ribbon? I'm thinking I'd prefer an all in one unit to a sound card and rack or strip unit pre amp if nothing else just to save space but it would have to have decent pre amps. I like the idea of providing versitility to my rig so I can add dif mics or try a stereo set up or somethung without needing more new gear. Any other suggestions I should check out?

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You can get yourself a Soundcraft Notepad for $99:
Soundcraft Notepad 124FX Mixer with Effects (688705230535) | eBay

Or a Mackie 402-VLZ3 for $70:
Mackie 402-VLZ3 Premium 4-Channel Ultra-Compact Mixer | eBay

Clean pres, useful EQ, FX, phantom power, and lots of gain for your ribbon and any future condensers.

You'll need an audio interface though. On the low-end, anything from M-Audio is decent, better would probably be an Appogee Duet (if you're a Mac guy), and the Lynx L22 is a bit steep at $675, but you'd never need another.

[davemccall]

Totally disregarding the A/D converter issue (which has been pretty well covered) and looking at another aspect of the posed situation:

I don't have a ton of experience, but I don't like the concept of an "active" ribbon mic. It is just putting a phantom powered preamp into the mic (unless I'm missing something).

I'd rather have an external preamp that I can use on any/all my mics. One that I have more control over.

Personally, I have 4 different preamps. I might want to use one on my ribbon mic for my vocalist and a different one on my ribbon mic for a guitar cab. And I can use any of them on any of my LDCs, SDCs, dynamics, etc. Even if you start with just one preamp, that's a good start and you can always add in the future. Though the cloudlifter (mentioned above) doesn't have the controls of a typical preamp, even that could be useful with other mics (especially if you're collecting ribbons).

Someone tell me if I'm missing something.

[zenben]

Its interesting to me that those who have replied seem to prefer to get a pre amp or mixer and an interface seperately. Im a PC guy so appogee is out. The mackie 402 vlz3 mixer looks cool and I like the fact that I could multitrack without buying seperate pres. I also found the Mackie blackjack used which looks like a nice unit but more expensive. Are the pres the same in these two mackie units?

Im still curious about the A&H mixer or similar with usb capabilities. Is there something inherent in the these lower cost mixers with internal preamps that double as an interface that make them inferior to combining seperate units or is it just more cost effective and flexible to buy sepetate units? If I plan to go with a seperate analog pre amp or mixer like the mackie above and an M-audio interface or similar priced one is there something I need be sure it has or are they all pretty much the same at that price? I saw a e-mu 1212m pci card based interface available used for $80. Is this a good match for something like the mackie mixer? My reading on GS tells me usb 2 is better than pci but I wanted to be sure because the emu specs say its better than usb (original?) I don't have firewire but if it would be helpful I could easily add a pci card of FW inputs. I hear the m-audio name a lot but would they work on a pc with reaper or audacity? I don't have protools.




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[thepilgrimsdream]

Apogee duet may be out of your price range, but best conversion and pre for the money.

Fathead should work nice

[gravyface]

Originally Posted by zenben

Its interesting to me that those who have replied seem to prefer to get a pre amp or mixer and an interface seperately. Im a PC guy so appogee is out. The mackie 402 vlz3 mixer looks cool and I like the fact that I could multitrack without buying seperate pres. I also found the Mackie blackjack used which looks like a nice unit but more expensive. Are the pres the same in these two mackie units?

Im still curious about the A&H mixer or similar with usb capabilities. Is there something inherent in the these lower cost mixers with internal preamps that double as an interface that make them inferior to combining seperate units or is it just more cost effective and flexible to buy sepetate units? If I plan to go with a seperate analog pre amp or mixer like the mackie above and an M-audio interface or similar priced one is there something I need be sure it has or are they all pretty much the same at that price? I saw a e-mu 1212m pci card based interface available used for $80. Is this a good match for something like the mackie mixer? My reading on GS tells me usb 2 is better than pci but I wanted to be sure because the emu specs say its better than usb (original?) I don't have firewire but if it would be helpful I could easily add a pci card of FW inputs. I hear the m-audio name a lot but would they work on a pc with reaper or audacity? I don't have protools.




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The A&H ZED series AD/DA converter/USB interface is probably fine and comparable to other low-end converters. If you have a PC and have PCI slots available, you can get an older, higher-end interface with better AD/DA converters for cheap.

Unless you're using something truly horrible (like your soundblaster or some eBay knock-off), the AD/DA conversion is going to have less of an impact on your sound than your vocal performance/technique, mic, mic placement, preamps, etc.

M-Audio works with Reaper or Audacity.

[Noysie]

One option from outside the strictly audio world, is the Sound Devices USBpre, just had a look on ebay us, they seem to sell around $250usd second hand, these devices are totally bomb proof.And are renouned for there brilliant pre's, they compete head to head with nagra now days. The USB is a simple Stereo preamp with usb out to a pc , and its
Tiny,
Just a thought, I dont use computers but this looks pretty idiot proof even I could use it!

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[changeng]

davemccall - you still need a preamp with an active ribbon mic. In fact, since it brings up the raw signal to a strong level, you have a wider choice of preamps you can use, since you won't have to crank the preamp to get a useable volume. An active ribbon's circuitry is essentially is a cloudlifter built into the mic.

[qbury]

Originally Posted by zenben

Im still curious about the A&H mixer or similar with usb capabilities. Is there something inherent in the these lower cost mixers with internal preamps that double as an interface that make them inferior to combining seperate units or is it just more cost effective and flexible to buy sepetate units?

Most of these units I've cheeked out are only USB 1.1 which only allow 2 (stereo) simultaneous channel recording into your pc at one time. If that's all you need that's fine but it's good to know before hand.

[._.]

Originally Posted by zenben

I'm relatively new to home recording beyond D.I. and I'm interested in getting into ribbons, primarily for (clean) elec and acoustic guitar work for their unique sound quality and added warmth. Problem is, I don't have the gear that connects the mic to my PC for recording. In the past, I've used a sure sm57 with an XLR to 1/4th inch cable, and then used a 3.5mm adapter to plug it into the input of my soundblaster sound card...e.g totally ghetto low end setup. The sound quality was pretty bad, but for jotting down riffs and ideas in Audacity, it worked in a pinch. I'd like to take my recording abilities to the next level, but I'm pretty strapped for cash after buying some new instruments recently. I'm willing to pay up to $200 for a good entry-level ribbon mic and really like the cascade fathead and vin-jet, but without a pre amp or DAW interface, I realize I won't be able to apprecaite my new mic...I'm hoping there is a way to go from a ribbon mic to my PC for around $150-$200 and not completely lose the beauty of the ribbon microphone sound by staying in my budget. Keep in mind, I'm not a pro engineer in any stretch of the imagination, and the stuff I record will be primarily for myself and my friends to multi-track through audacity. I'm not trying to make a professional album per-se, but I want to enjoy listening to it.

I did about 20 hours of research over the last few days on gearsultz, and have some possible solutions, but would really appreciate others' experience/expertise.

Could I go with something like the blue icicle with the vin-jet since it's an active ribbon and doesn't need the big gain boost like the passive fathead, or am I better off saving some money on the mic and going with the fathead so I can purchase a higher quality pre amp? Is there a cost-effective way to solve both the missing pre amp and DAW interface with one piece of equipment besides the blue icicle or similar XLR to USB device, or am I going to save cash and improve performance by purchasing 2 seperate units? Any direction would be appreciated. I'm not at all opposed to used gear, and the only other gear I have which may be in the chain is a Jam Man Solo loop pedal, a digitech guitar processor, and a Carvin Vintage 16 tube amp with a Celestian 30.

I think I can somewhat safely say that all interfaces regardless of price are more or less a complete joke when you turn up the volume on insensitive mics (judging from the problems people are complaing about here). You can need as much as 70-80dB of gain sometimes. Most interfaces don't even have 40dB of gain, and maybe 20-30 is noise free, this effectively makes dynamics unusable for everything except really loud sources.

If you want some use out of dynamics and ribbons you probably need to pony up for a preamp. Search this forum for the Rane MS1S (MS-1S) and MS1B. They seem to be very good bang/buck ratio, and are supposedly very noise free (important when you need much gain). Other choices are M-audio and Studio projects. What you want is a no nonsense unit, low noise, 60db gain.

From what I have read I'd say the Rane is the best choice on a budget.

And these 2 very close runner ups

M-AUDIO - DMP3 - Dual Microphone/Instrument Preamp
VTB1 - Single-Channel Tube Blend Mic Preamp

MS 1S Mic Stage

They all provide a total of 66dB gain or more I think, should be plenty.

And when that signal is boosted its at line level, then you can just plug in into your computer, in the line in socket, then the subpar line in socket don't have to amplify anything.

Instead of buying all those toys, like usb this or usb that, if you buy one of these 3 you'll still be left with maybe the most critical part of the chain being up to the job at the end of the day. IMHO

[zenben]

Thanks for all the great info. I really like the high gain and variable impedence on the vtb 1 but it only has 1 input which would mean I need multiple pres to do a 2 mic setup which I may like to try. I'm comfortable with any interface that has at least 2 inputs so I'll have to take a lok at some pci card units to see if that's avail. Good to know I could save some money that way compared to the newer usb ones and not have much performance dif.

As for mics I'm favoring the ribbon+sm57 or maybe an sm 7b if I can find a used one

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[davemccall]

Originally Posted by changeng

davemccall - you still need a preamp with an active ribbon mic. In fact, since it brings up the raw signal to a strong level, you have a wider choice of preamps you can use, since you won't have to crank the preamp to get a useable volume. An active ribbon's circuitry is essentially is a cloudlifter built into the mic.

I have a ribbon mic and any of my preamps work fine on it without a cloudlifter. They also work on all my other mics.

I guess I just have preamps with a lot of gain? Or maybe one of the "hotter" ribbons? (it's a Cascade Victor with Lundahl transformer)

[changeng]

guess so!

[zenben]

Originally Posted by davemccall

I have a ribbon mic and any of my preamps work fine on it without a cloudlifter. They also work on all my other mics.

I guess I just have preamps with a lot of gain? Or maybe one of the "hotter" ribbons? (it's a Cascade Victor with Lundahl transformer)

Do you use the cascade victor for clean guitars? Curious about this mic. What preamps have you tried it successfully with?

As for my gear hunt, after checking out reviews for the rane, SP VTB1, and M-Audio DMP3 suggested above, it appears only the DMP3 offers dual XLR inputs for recording with 2 mics (e.g. a 57 and a ribbon). Anyone have experience using a ribbon mic or dynamic mic with this preamp, or both together? It advertises 67db of clean gain, but does it really stay clean at a level high enough for a dynamic or ribbon mic? Any complaints about it compared to the rane or the VTB1? Only thing I see it is "missing" is the variable impedance...Is this essential for quality recordings with a ribbon? The DMP3 and VTB1 doesn't have any imbalanced outputs-is this a problem, or is this standard when it comes to plugging it into an A/D interface? The price of the VTB1 is significantly lower than the rane unit, but I see used one's come up on ebay often. Would all of these units provide significantly better preamps than a multitrack mixer like a soundboard? If I got one of these pre-amps, could I use a 3.5mm adapter and try plugging them straight into my soundblaster sound card, or will I definitely need to cough up the cash for a decent interface?

What about the Mackie/Onyx Blackjack? It advertises good preamps and I believe it has a USB (2.0?) A/D in it. 2 XLR inputs, but no EQ or z faders...price is the same as the standalone pre's listed above.

Thanks again, excited for my first piece of quality gear!

[._.]

You want the in impedance of the micamp to be about 8-10 times higher (at least) compared to the mics output impedance.

1 get some preamps, used, not used, 2 of the same or different, but get the real stand alone preamps.

2 get a cheap used 2ch in 2ch out PCI soundcard with balanced inputs and outputs (you can always short the outputs if you need unbalanced out). M-audio, E-MU, and ESI makes good no nonsense cards and these you can find for around $50 or so used.

For the money this is the best you can do if you want sound quality. You will probably have to spend around 1000 for preamps and maybe as little as 6-700 on an RME interface (both new) to hear a definitive improvement I'm guessing.

The preamps are expecting balanced mics in, and deliver balanced +4dBu line signal out (or close), this is the professional level, you want something that can recieve this signal.

Good luck.

[brassmoose]

+1 for soundcraft notepad. My EPM8 has same pres and they are good...better than Art Mpa. The Art Studio Pre is good for $30. Not as much gain as the Soundcraft & its noisier, but it's $30.

Vin jet is passive, not active. Tracks clean guitar fine. Same as my Victor, essentially.

I have a Victor with Lundahl and it tracks fine for clean guitar. However, i liked the dynamic that was tracked with it better, a Stedman N90 (essentially an RE20). The Stedman handled the reverb better, IMHO.

Honestly, all the extra money for the gain? ...just get a good hot dynamic like a Heil PR22 and you'll be fine. The only place I really like my ribbons is on dum overheads, because I do 60s an 70s funk and soul. On guitar cabs, I like dynamics. And you can drop a dynamic. If you get a ribbon, get a Cascade so you know the ribbon is tuned.

[davemccall]

Originally Posted by zenben

Do you use the cascade victor for clean guitars? Curious about this mic. What preamps have you tried it successfully with?

I haven't used the Victor for clean guitars yet (I know it is great on kick drum and vocals). I just did a shootout with 3 LDCs and 5 dynamics for guitar cab micing. Look out for that here on GSZ soon.

My preamps:
Black Lion Auteur (use this most often on the Victor)
Shure SE30
Presonus Eureka (my second go-to pre for the Victor)
On board pres in my Tascam US-1641
I also have a Comprehensive MM-3100 field recorder mixer that can be used as a pre.

[zenben]

Originally Posted by brassmoose

+1 for soundcraft notepad. My EPM8 has same pres and they are good...better than Art Mpa. Honestly, all the extra money for the gain? ...just get a good hot dynamic like a Heil PR22 and you'll be fine. The only place I really like my ribbons is on dum overheads, because I do 60s an 70s funk and soul. On guitar cabs, I like dynamics. And you can drop a dynamic. If you get a ribbon, get a Cascade so you know the ribbon is tuned.

I did some researh on the soundcraft notepads and really like what I'm seeing. The 124fx model is $100, and the pre's get a lot of good press. It also has 4 xlr inputs, so it would cover anything I would ever do in my small home studio. Are the effects on the 124fx worth the extra couple of bucks? It seems a little redundant seeing that I've got a digitech effects processor for guitars and nice tube reverb on my guitar amp...are there some fx that sound better AFTER they go through the mic ie last in the chain? Are the fx on the 124fx even useable?
Update: foynd a soundcraft spirit follo 16 rebranded as a jbl eon used for $100 on cl! Is this a quality mixer like the notepads?

I appreciate all the microphone recommendations-I am definitely not 100% decided when it comes to what mic(s) to use. I really like the sound clips I've heard of the Sure sm7b for pedal steel, but I also really like the unique sound of ribbons. One thing to consider is my "home studio" room is not treated-it's just my home office...will this make using ribbons a bad idea? I'm willing to soundproof if it's not too costly-I'll do some research here to see how if you all think it's necessary.

To assist in choosing the right mic, let me share some of the things I'm looking for in a mic or combo of mics that I like-maybe there's another mic that's better suited for my needs? Can you suggest a mic that offers these attributes:

-warm/rich flavor to sound
-full dynamic sound (no loss of mids or bass)
-highs that aren't shrill or overly bright (very important for pedal steel guitar)
-adaptable to acoustic or electric (clean) sources
-available for $150 or less

Thanks!

[._.]

Originally Posted by zenben

I did some researh on the soundcraft notepads and really like what I'm seeing. The 124fx model is $100, and the pre's get a lot of good press. It also has 4 xlr inputs, so it would cover anything I would ever do in my small home studio. Are the effects on the 124fx worth the extra couple of bucks? It seems a little redundant seeing that I've got a digitech effects processor for guitars and nice tube reverb on my guitar amp...are there some fx that sound better AFTER they go through the mic ie last in the chain? Are the fx on the 124fx even useable?

I appreciate all the microphone recommendations-I am definitely not 100% decided when it comes to what mic(s) to use. I really like the sound clips I've heard of the Sure sm7b for pedal steel, but I also really like the unique sound of ribbons. One thing to consider is my "home studio" room is not treated-it's just my home office...will this make using ribbons a bad idea? I'm willing to soundproof if it's not too costly-I'll do some research here to see how if you all think it's necessary.

To assist in choosing the right mic, let me share some of the things I'm looking for in a mic or combo of mics that I like-maybe there's another mic that's better suited for my needs? Can you suggest a mic that offers these attributes:

-warm/rich flavor to sound
-full dynamic sound (no loss of mids or bass)
-highs that aren't shrill or overly bright (very important for pedal steel guitar)
-adaptable to acoustic or electric (clean) sources
-available for $150 or less

Thanks!

You have to understand that making a good mic costs money, if you don't want overly bright and shrill mics and loss of percieved low end you are eliminating almost all condensers under lets say a grand.

And good non china ribbons cost at least 500, more likely a grand. And these are in no way perfect. Good ribbons cost like 2 grand.

There is at least 2-3 ribbon shootouts on recordinghacks check it out.

This effectively leaves you with dynamics. To get a good condenser cost like 2-3 grand and a good ribbon the same, but you can get the best dynamic there is for under 500, now think about that. The dynamics are much cheaper when it comes to price/performance ratio.

Some really good dynamics seems to be Beyerdynamic m88tg and m69tg, Electrovoice re20, re27, re320, And shure 57/58. AKG d5/d7 and many Sennheiser 800 and 900 series are getting good reviews.

You don't have much money so the smartest for you would be getting dynamics, and preamps, every other choise would cost lots more

You want to run ribbons? Then accept the entryticket for ribbons, and thats good separate preamps and expensive ribbons, you wanna go condenser then its lower grade preamps maybe you only need 30-40db clean gain but now the mics suddenly cost 500-5000. You wanna go dynamic? Then its 100-500 for the mic and 200 for a good preamp (new).

You have to listen first and then choose the mic type you want.
Then you have to set a max budget.

The cheapest way seems to get good sound seems to be getting cheaper dynamics and a silent and good amp. IMHO.

Card 50 (used)
2 amps (channels) 100 (used)
Dynamic mics up to you.

But its all up to you, you need to know what the tradeoffs are thats all. Don't be expecting miracles for $100, aint gonna happen.

[._.]

Now just to clarify something here

This is what really good sounding gear cost new

An interface about 200 (pci internal only takes line in), best rme stuff is like 2000, and it doesn't get better it just gets different, and the best internal rme cards are like 5-600

A ribbon mic, starts at 100, good at 500-1000 and really good at 2k
Condenser starts at 100, gets good at 500-1000 and really good at what 2500-3500 or so.
Dynamic starts at 50 and gets good at what 150 and really super good at 500.

A preamp starts at 30 (shit) and gets good at about 150-200 (the 3 above) and really good at 2-3k

Don't fool yourself that a mixer for 100 is going to have a good preamp, its the same quality as the cheap interfaces and do a search here of even the good interfaces and their problems to find out whats what. Might be good for loud sources I don't know.

There is no free lunch.

There is a cheap lunch though but it reqires some navigation skills from your side.

Some things just have another gearing ratio of when it turn to 90% of a maximum of 100% good (i.e prefect stuff), you get further with less money with some things and still get very high quality.

Don't be a sucker.

[zenben]

Well, I'm beginning to lean more towards the M-audio DMP3 unit. I don't need more than 2 channels on a single pre amp for anything I can imagine doing at this point, and it meets the needs of a passive ribbon mic and a dynamic or one of each. It has 67db of gain, good input noise performance, and high impedance input.
The pre amp is available on ebay pretty often for about $100 used and has the clean headroom needed and ability to power 2 separate mics simultaneously (i.e. sm 57 and a ribbon) if I want to try that out. The only things it's really missing is the variable impedance and adjustable EQ, and as far as I understand, to get that I would have to spend a lot more on a high-end unit, buy 2 separate units to use 2 different mics, or make other sacrifices like with a soundcraft mixer that only has 60db's of gain but has the EQ on each channel.

If I go with the VTB-1 which has the variable impedance, I would need a 2nd pre-amp if I ever want to record 2 simultaneous tracks. I could always pick up a used Rane pickup to use for a 2nd mic if I later decided to go that direction. This is my backup plan as of late.

Regardless of what I choose, with this new preamp, I think I will give dynamic mics another go and possibly pick up an SM 57 or similar mic that is appropriate for instruments. I've read of a lot of people saying a pre-amp can really improve the performance of "standard" microphones, and while I've only tried a sm58, it was with a cheap mixer with pre-amps that were likely very noisy and it resulted in a muddy or dull sound. If I feel the need for something new, I can add a Cascade fathead in the future. Seems like the best course of action.

What are your thoughts on this, and are there any other units or mics I should consider before taking the plunge?

I'll likely still need a decent interface, but I could try plugging the pre-amp directly into the line-in on my soundblaster to see how it sounds. Does anyone know if I can keep the soundblaster (PCI) on board with a PCI audio interface like the m-audio ultra 44 or E-MU 1212m for recording? I kind of like the surround sound on my soundblaster for passive music listening and have a decent 5.1 system for it already...If I can't use them on the same computer, would it be a horrible decision to go with something like a used M-Audio Audiophile USB interface? I can get one used on the cheap locally, but it's usb 1...I doubt I'll ever need more than 2 stereo inputs simultaneously given the DMP3 has 2 on it's own.

[Noysie]

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[brassmoose]

The soundcraft has a real 60db of gain, which does great for ribbons on drums, horns, etc. Not sure about acoustic guitar, tho. My ART MPA PRO II, on full tilt--supposedly 70db of gain--pales in comparison. Seems equivalent to 50db of gain on the Soundcraft. You should be sure those DMP3 specs are not fudged...

However, I've been using my Cascade Victor (with Lundahl) a lot, and sometimes my Cascade Vin-Jet (stock)...and I always end up double mic-ing with a good dynamic (Heil PR40 or PR35) to get the full sound I want. I haven't been happy with using just a low end ribbon mic. A great dynamic puts the sizzle & polish on it...or rather, the ribbon fattens up the dynamic. My point being...soundcraft should be ok, and that the low end ribbons don't carry the full sound I was hoping for. A soundcraft Notebook (2 channels) is selling new for $125ish on Ebay. Just saw a 4 channel one go for $60.

Good luck!

[zenben]

Another update- switched DAWs and am AMAZED at the difference! Acoustic guitar sounds clear and loud even at 66% gain! I'm really happy with the mic and the preamp seems very capable and quiet when paired with a "real" DAW. After getting this new ribbon mic, I realize the limitations to an untreated room! I heard a dog barking doen the street on the re ording I didnt even notice while recording! Any advoce on blocking unwanted outside sounds from windows?
What about noises coming from the computer? Keep in mind I'm on a budget and just do this 4 a hobby.
One thing I'm finding though is my computer is cutting out for a few milliseconds every few minutes during playback. Its inconsistent and not noticeable on the wavform (ie it doesn't seem to have effected the recordings). I never noticed this until playback of my takes, but for just a moment everything is silent then returns and when I highlight the area and replay, it sounds fine. I'm wondering if it's a latency or other property setup issue since I'm new to the DAW. I'm using FL studio now btw, which is a lot of fun. Any direction to better understanding of things like latency and other options would be much appreciated.

Anyone want to hear audio samples? I've got acoustic electric and pedal steel here all through the apex205 and maudio dmp3. Unfortunately they were recorded in my untreated home office, so as I mentioned above unwanted souns are audible.

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[brassmoose]

What ribbon mic, preamp, and DAW are you using?