sub/nearfiled level matching for optimum output

ted demen · 12th April 2006

i just picked up a tapco sw-10 to join a pair of mackie hr-624's.

i set the x-over frequency @ 80hz.

the input gain on both the sub and the sattelites is set to 12 oclock.
(mackies are 50/100 watts - tweeter/woofer respectively, and the sub is 120 watts)

main issue i had (still have) right away is that i have to turn down the master fader in cubase SX2.2 to about -12 so as the sub does not fart and the mackies are not too loud.
each channel in cubase is riding around -1/-2 db.

i am using the fixed level outs #1 & #2 on my motu 828 (not the outs that are controlable with the main/volume knob)

.........

which is the best approach for optimum level matching?

-should i stick to the current setup and work with a master fader output gain of -12 db?

-or should i adjust the sub/nearfield attenuators while keeping master fader @ 0db?

-or should i connect the monitors to the volume knob controllable outputs and use the motu "main" attenuator? (by the way, this attenuator is dirty and clicks/pops when i twist it)

--------

one more question.
-is there a way i can test the sub to make sure its performing up to par?
it seems to me (although i very well might be wrong) that the sub driver starts to fart @ not very high levels, and i want to make sure its not defective.

thanx

Pascal Sijen · 13th April 2006

Hello Ted:

If you have an SPL meter (such as the ones sold at RadioShack for about $35), then you may find our test files and calibration instructions useful. They can be found by going to: www.abluesky.com/calibration

Feel free to e-mail me directly if you have any questions. pascal@abluesky.com

Cheers!

Thumper · 13th April 2006

I would say to use the monitor outputs. The pot you're refering to probably just needs to be exercised. Turn your speakers off, and turn the knob from full counter clockwise, to full clockwise about 100 times, or more, until it cleans up. Trust me, it works.

You don't want to use your master fader as a volume control... you're losing bit depth, as well as making it really hard to make mixes that aren't 12db down from where they easily could be.

Wow... I just checked out that sub. That thing really isn't capable of anything. No offense, but seriously... It probably is just farting out on you.

Good luck, and did you happen to eat a mango today?

ted demen · 13th April 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pascal Sijen

Hello Ted:

If you have an SPL meter (such as the ones sold at RadioShack for about $35), then you may find our test files and calibration instructions useful. They can be found by going to: www.abluesky.com/calibration

Feel free to e-mail me directly if you have any questions. pascal@abluesky.com

Cheers!

thanx, i will try this and let you know

ted demen · 13th April 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thumper

I would say to use the monitor outputs. The pot you're refering to probably just needs to be exercised. Turn your speakers off, and turn the knob from full counter clockwise, to full clockwise about 100 times, or more, until it cleans up. Trust me, it works.

You don't want to use your master fader as a volume control... you're losing bit depth, as well as making it really hard to make mixes that aren't 12db down from where they easily could be.

Wow... I just checked out that sub. That thing really isn't capable of anything. No offense, but seriously... It probably is just farting out on you.

Good luck, and did you happen to eat a mango today?

i tried to esercise and clean the pots at least 3 times.....not even a slight improvement (and the popping is REALLY bad)

thats what i was concerned with regarding mixing @ -12db (loss of dynamics)

the sub is much more capable than i need for my room, my main concern is that im sending a signal -12db and the attenuator on the sub is @ 12 oclock, and if i try to turn up the master fader to even lets say -10db - the sub starts to fart and i dont know if thats a flaw or simply the max power handling of the unit.

mind you even @ -12db it is still very loud (too loud) for my room size

Crash · 13th April 2006

Quote:

-or should i adjust the sub/nearfield attenuators while keeping master fader @ 0db?

-or should i connect the monitors to the volume knob controllable outputs and use the motu "main" attenuator? (by the way, this attenuator is dirty and clicks/pops when i twist it)

I would go with one of these two options. I doubt I would be able to work without being able to turn my monitor level up and down at will.

The Tapco is no powerhouse sub but is quite useable for checking out what is going on down low. I am using the same sub with HR824s and have been very pleased with the results. I think we discussed this in in another thread when you were checking out this vs. the KRK. I use the sub in a very subtle way....but that is what I was looking for when I got it. It is more than enough for monitoring at 85-90db, where I live most of the time during a mix.

nathanvacha · 13th April 2006

Get some sort of pad or attenuater between your motu and your monitors. Something simple and passive, but use something w/ high grade components. Should be an easy fix/problem solved sort of thing.

ted demen · 13th April 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crash

I would go with one of these two options. I doubt I would be able to work without being able to turn my monitor level up and down at will.

The Tapco is no powerhouse sub but is quite useable for checking out what is going on down low. I am using the same sub with HR824s and have been very pleased with the results. I think we discussed this in in another thread when you were checking out this vs. the KRK. I use the sub in a very subtle way....but that is what I was looking for when I got it. It is more than enough for monitoring at 85-90db, where I live most of the time during a mix.

i got 2 questions 4 u:

- what frequency are you crossing over to the 824s?

- what position is the attenuator set on the sub?

(my main concern right now is to see if the driver is faulty/ripped/rubbing etc...and im asking cause like i said mine starts to fart @ -10 on cubase master fader (12 oclock attenuator position on sub) and i would like to compare if yours is about the same)

appreciate the help

ted demen · 13th April 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by nathanvacha

Get some sort of pad or attenuater between your motu and your monitors. Something simple and passive, but use something w/ high grade components. Should be an easy fix/problem solved sort of thing.

i thought of this as well - the main argument i have against it is that i would rather not add anything into the signal chain so as it would add color to the sound.

do u have any links to some examples?

Thumper · 14th April 2006

Well, as for testing out the sub, run a sine wave generator through it. Preferrably something sweepable. start at around 30hz, and work your way up... slowly. If the driver is defective, you will hear the voice coil rubbing on the pole piece. You can also do this by lightly pushing on the cone (with 2 hands on the outside of the dust cap, as to not tip the cone at all...) and see if it rubs. You should be able to feel that.

When you start to hear air turbulence, that's all she's got captain...

The sine wave generator is also a good way to get your crossover point, and sub level matched. Just sweep up and down from about 200hz on down to 30hz or whatever, and listen for drastic level changes.

Pay close attention to the crossover point, to see if your phase matches. That's a huge deal.

Try moving the sub around in the room to get the flattest response from the sub itself.

You can also use the sine wave sweep to see where the Mackies start to drop off... i'd say that you probably want it somewhere around 70, if you aren't listening to program material at a high level.

As far as a volume control, if you want to spend money (HA!!!) Mackie makes the 'big knob' for about three bills.

Otherwise, you're looking for a stepped attenuator, such as http://www.goldpt.com/vcb_sa1.html

That thing is probably expensive, because it has the word gold in the name, but that's the basic idea.

Or... if you feel like soldering....................

ted demen · 19th April 2006

thanx for the info thumper, some good advice there......
i did most of it short of the sweep (i have to try to borrow a tone generator from work)
i set the x over point @ 80hz - seems to be a happy balance.

i would still like to get a reply from Crash regarding my questions above relating to his setup

cheers

Crash · 19th April 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by ted demen

i got 2 questions 4 u:

- what frequency are you crossing over to the 824s?

- what position is the attenuator set on the sub?

(my main concern right now is to see if the driver is faulty/ripped/rubbing etc...and im asking cause like i said mine starts to fart @ -10 on cubase master fader (12 oclock attenuator position on sub) and i would like to compare if yours is about the same)

appreciate the help

Sorry I haven't replied.....for some reason I didn't get notification of this thread, even though I have this thread selected to keep me aware of responses.

Anyway, to answer your questions, I am running the sub crossover at 80hz and the attenuator is around the 2-3 o'clock position if you were viewing the knob from the back side of the sub.

My rig is a d8b/HDR rig so your cubase master fader positions are a foreign animal to me. I use the control room level pots to turn my monitors up and down.

Sorry again for not responding sooner.

ted demen · 19th April 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crash

Sorry I haven't replied.....for some reason I didn't notification of this thread, even though I have this thread selected to keep me aware of responses.

Anyway, to answer your questions, I am running the sub crossover at 80hz and the attenuator is around the 2-3 o'clock position if you were viewing the knob from the back side of the sub.

My rig is a d8b/HDR rig so your cubase master fader positions are a foreign animal to me. I use the control room level pots to turn my monitors up and down.

Sorry again for not responding sooner.

no worries bro, appreciate the help.

see, my concern is that i can only go to about 10-11 oclock position on the input attenuator on the sub before it starts to fart, and i was (still am) a bit worried that maybe it is a faulty driver.

mind you, as ive mentioned before i am going out of the fixed-level outputs on the motu 828 since my attenuator is dirty.

anyways, thanx again - will post results when i have it all figured out.

cheers

Crash · 19th April 2006

I can see your concern but I bet it has to do with the way you are feeding your signal straight off the master into your speaker rig. I would think that if I tried a similar setup on my rig, I would get my head blown off...and my sub would get very farty.

You know anybody that has a rig where you could test your sub/sattelite combo in a setup that is more traditional where some sort of volume pot is used? Do you have a way to replicate your mix on a couple of auxes and use the aux masters as a volume knob for testing? Just trying to think of some otions so you caqn test it and get some anwers one way or the other.

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12th April 2006	#1
ted demen Gear nut Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 77 Thread Starter	sub/nearfiled level matching for optimum output i just picked up a tapco sw-10 to join a pair of mackie hr-624's. i set the x-over frequency @ 80hz. the input gain on both the sub and the sattelites is set to 12 oclock. (mackies are 50/100 watts - tweeter/woofer respectively, and the sub is 120 watts) main issue i had (still have) right away is that i have to turn down the master fader in cubase SX2.2 to about -12 so as the sub does not fart and the mackies are not too loud. each channel in cubase is riding around -1/-2 db. i am using the fixed level outs #1 & #2 on my motu 828 (not the outs that are controlable with the main/volume knob) ......... which is the best approach for optimum level matching? -should i stick to the current setup and work with a master fader output gain of -12 db? -or should i adjust the sub/nearfield attenuators while keeping master fader @ 0db? -or should i connect the monitors to the volume knob controllable outputs and use the motu "main" attenuator? (by the way, this attenuator is dirty and clicks/pops when i twist it) -------- one more question. -is there a way i can test the sub to make sure its performing up to par? it seems to me (although i very well might be wrong) that the sub driver starts to fart @ not very high levels, and i want to make sure its not defective. thanx

13th April 2006	#2
Pascal Sijen Gear maniac Joined: May 2003 Location: La Quinta, CA Posts: 221	Hello Ted: If you have an SPL meter (such as the ones sold at RadioShack for about $35), then you may find our test files and calibration instructions useful. They can be found by going to: www.abluesky.com/calibration Feel free to e-mail me directly if you have any questions. pascal@abluesky.com Cheers! __________________ *Pascal Sijen* Director, Product Management, Cinema Solutions @ Dolby Labs \| Former Co-Founder Blue Sky Int. & Audio Design Labs Inc. \| I'm also a geek in my spare time.

13th April 2006	#3
Thumper Lives for gear Joined: Apr 2006 Posts: 990	I would say to use the monitor outputs. The pot you're refering to probably just needs to be exercised. Turn your speakers off, and turn the knob from full counter clockwise, to full clockwise about 100 times, or more, until it cleans up. Trust me, it works. You don't want to use your master fader as a volume control... you're losing bit depth, as well as making it really hard to make mixes that aren't 12db down from where they easily could be. Wow... I just checked out that sub. That thing really isn't capable of anything. No offense, but seriously... It probably is just farting out on you. Good luck, and did you happen to eat a mango today?

13th April 2006	#7
nathanvacha Lives for gear Joined: Dec 2005 Location: Orlando Posts: 1,231	Get some sort of pad or attenuater between your motu and your monitors. Something simple and passive, but use something w/ high grade components. Should be an easy fix/problem solved sort of thing.

14th April 2006	#10
Thumper Lives for gear Joined: Apr 2006 Posts: 990	Well, as for testing out the sub, run a sine wave generator through it. Preferrably something sweepable. start at around 30hz, and work your way up... slowly. If the driver is defective, you will hear the voice coil rubbing on the pole piece. You can also do this by lightly pushing on the cone (with 2 hands on the outside of the dust cap, as to not tip the cone at all...) and see if it rubs. You should be able to feel that. When you start to hear air turbulence, that's all she's got captain... The sine wave generator is also a good way to get your crossover point, and sub level matched. Just sweep up and down from about 200hz on down to 30hz or whatever, and listen for drastic level changes. Pay close attention to the crossover point, to see if your phase matches. That's a huge deal. Try moving the sub around in the room to get the flattest response from the sub itself. You can also use the sine wave sweep to see where the Mackies start to drop off... i'd say that you probably want it somewhere around 70, if you aren't listening to program material at a high level. As far as a volume control, if you want to spend money (HA!!!) Mackie makes the 'big knob' for about three bills. Otherwise, you're looking for a stepped attenuator, such as http://www.goldpt.com/vcb_sa1.html That thing is probably expensive, because it has the word gold in the name, but that's the basic idea. Or... if you feel like soldering....................

19th April 2006	#11
ted demen Gear nut Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 77 Thread Starter	thanx for the info thumper, some good advice there...... i did most of it short of the sweep (i have to try to borrow a tone generator from work) i set the x over point @ 80hz - seems to be a happy balance. i would still like to get a reply from Crash regarding my questions above relating to his setup cheers

19th April 2006	#14
Crash Lives for gear Joined: Oct 2003 Location: San Antonio Texas Posts: 1,773	I can see your concern but I bet it has to do with the way you are feeding your signal straight off the master into your speaker rig. I would think that if I tried a similar setup on my rig, I would get my head blown off...and my sub would get very farty. You know anybody that has a rig where you could test your sub/sattelite combo in a setup that is more traditional where some sort of volume pot is used? Do you have a way to replicate your mix on a couple of auxes and use the aux masters as a volume knob for testing? Just trying to think of some otions so you caqn test it and get some anwers one way or the other.