Apex 460 vs. SE z5600a?

[xist]

Is there someone having experiences with both these mics? One, the Apex, is much cheaper than the other, the SE, but are they comparable?

[drtaudio]

Hello, the 460 is made for APEX by Alctron and the Z5600 is made for SE by Feilo both are Chinese companies. The Z5600 has a 34 mm diaphragm O.D. and the 460 has a 32mm diaphragm O.D. The quality control of the Z5600 capsule is better but the output circuit of the 460 is better. Although, there are those who choose to remove this second half of the 12AX7 cathode follower circuit. However, for those who do not understand the cathode follower advantage.....

I quote the 1966 RCA tube manual, "The use of the cathode follower permits the design of circuits which have high input impedance and high output voltage. The output impedance is quite low and very low distortion may be obtained. The output impedance is lower than the plate and provides excellent damping to the load. The peak to peak signal voltage however, approaches 1-1/2 times the plate voltage if maximum power output is required from the tube."

However, both these microphones will show improvements by replacing the generic 12AX7 they are supplied with to a selected 6072a which has half the gain and can improve the headroom by at least 6db.

The Z5600 capsule is much closer sounding to a Neumann KK67 than the Alctron capsule. The Alctron capsule has more rise in the 2.7khz range which can be nice on acoustic instruments but a bit too edgy for some male vocals. This natural lift will vary 3-4db between microphones and those with too much lift can sound a bit too edge but they are not as "metallic" sounding as other Chinese economy microphones. However, both of these microphones are great candidates for Peluso capsule upgrades and Cinemag transformers. The APEX 460 with a CEK-12 capsule, Cinemag transformer and capacitor upgrade will go head to head with microphones in the $3500 range. I just built one up for a local Vancouver engineer and he now uses our Advanced Audio CM-12 (460 with CEK-12&Cinemag) 50% of the time over his Neumann M-149.

I prefer the Z5600 shock-mount but the power supplies are identical.

Best regards, Dave Thomas (Advanced Audio Microphones) drthomas@telus.net

[xist]

Interesting, thanks. I've never heard of Z5600a modified, but it's good to know, even if those mic even being chinese too are much more expensive than Apex, so probably I would think about adding more costs on it unless really needed.

[warhead]

He asked about the Z5600"a" which has nothing to do with Feilo or any other manufacturer. Since the old Z5600 model sE Electronics has moved on to their own R&D and manufacturing (they even make their own mic cases, mounts, etc).

I have both of these mics around but I've never put them side by side. When I get the chance I'll let you know. I'm very familiar with the Z5600A and really like that mic a lot.

War

[xist]

thanks warren!

[gsilbers]

any others out there with both these mics or at least with the SE?

i though the SE are being done in china but in thier facility

[homestudioguy]

I own the sE Z5600A, Z3300A, TITAN and SE3 (and foolishly sold my Z2200A).
The sE mics are made in Shanghai in the sE (Heavenly Sound) factory now, not by the Feilo factory. Havent been for quite awhile in fact.
Like Warren, I really like my Z5600A and as shared by Dave, a lot folks do switch out the Z5600A stock 12AT7/ECC81 for the 6072A/12AY7.
The Z5600A has been updated for 2007 (Z5600A MKII ) with quieter electronics in the mic as well as in the power supply plus it gets a 10 dB PAD and Hi-Pass Filter, neither of which it had before.
Keep your eyes peeled for whatever Warren writes about his A/B of these 2 mics as he is one knowledgable cowboy.
(xist, take few minutes and go here: http://www.seelectronics.com/whatsnew.html )

Here is part of a review from MIX : "Bottom line: At $229, the Apex 460 is a phenomenal buy and although it will never replace its higher-end brothers, it stands up in its own right and does a decent job in a number of applications.
Besides, at this price, it's one that you wouldn't mind opening up to dink around with the electronics or to change the tube. I've already seen modded units available online with a lower output and quieter tube, along with some capacitor changes. This is not a mic aimed at the high-end user, but at the hobbyist and/or home studio owner. For that large chunk of the recording public, owning this mic is a no-brainer."

I know Dave Thomas does some magically awesome 460 mods but I personally can't see how the APEX 460 would be even close to the Z5600A MKII right out of the box.
However, I'm just a homestudioguy

[alba359]

I should be getting my 460 modded by Dave any day now. It was shipped last week. I'll let you know how it turns out.

[~RW~BootyStackr]

I am currently in this train on thought, and therefore, I will BUMP!

[Haz-Mat-Strat]

Hi

Both mics sound good out of the box. The nice thing about the Apex, and all current incarnations, is the price point. The mic can be had for under $200.00. With that in mind a transformer swap, tube change, capsule change, and circuit mod will bring this mic into the base price of the SE.

The Apex will then sound much better. I prefer the plate output circuit vs. the cathode follower in that you get more "Tube Sound" and warmth. Using a Jensen, Cinemag, or AMI transformer, you can easily achieve the added headroom that the cathode follower provides.

The capsule change has the most dramatic impact on the overall sound. If you are trying to get the C12 or Elam251 sound, the best available capsule would be the CT12 custom made by Tim Campbell in Denmark.

Couple the CT12 capsule with the AMI T14/1 transformer, and a circuit and capacitor mod, you would have a world class sound on a Root Beer budget.

There are many options colors and flavors that are currently available that can expand the sonic palette. The mic and parts can be custom tuned to your taste and tweaked for optimum performance.



Jim Jacobsen
JJ Audio

Custom Microphones and Mods

[rty5150]

Originally Posted by Haz-Mat-Strat

Hi

Both mics sound good out of the box. The nice thing about the Apex, and all current incarnations, is the price point. The mic can be had for under $200.00. With that in mind a transformer swap, tube change, capsule change, and circuit mod will bring this mic into the base price of the SE.

looking to do that with my 460. i think the 460 is an excellent sounding mic out of the box. can't hang with my ma-200 right now, but i think that may change once i swap out the tranny and capsule. then again i plan on taking it on a my 251 route vs. the neumann route. after the mods i feel that the 460 would be right up there with the mojave, but with different flavor.

[narcoman]

The Z5600a is a hrash mic'.... sometimes useful...but it is harsh. Can't ofer anything on the other.

We had some here just for putting scratch demos together i {in the demo room hurrah}.... sold them recently. To cal them a "valve" mic would only technically correct. None of the smoothness associated with many other {cheap and expensive} valve offerings is present. The other mic;s from Se are pretty much good buys - well priced and a lot of bang for your buck. But not these. Horrible.

[ivankilowatt]

JUST SAY NO! Save your money and buy something real.
I bought a pair of 460's. After all the hype, I sold them after only using them once. Luckily I was smart enough to track the project with another mic I know at least produces results, also a cheap chineese mic, the cascade x-15. I purchased two Apex 460's and two 471's for only $500.USD total, and no longer own any of them. A steal for four un-usable mics? The 471 was almost usable, but marketed as cardioid, which it is not. The 471 performance was perfectly omni-directional (below 10khz).
I perform vintage audio restorations, repairs, and modifications. I see no value in modding the 460. By the time you're done, You'll have so much time involved, you could have bought a decent mic an been recording for two days.
Have you looked at the Audio Technica 4041? or any 40 series A-T?
Neither Apex offers much ''tube'' sound anyway. The 471 slightly more, because there's it's a hybrid, driving the valve harder with an FET pre between the capsule and tube.
In my opinion you'd be much better off using a FET mic fed into a tube-pre, or any valve buffer stage, at this point.
Save your money. I didn't. Learn from MY mistake.thumbsup
-Ivan Kilowatt

[Haz-Mat-Strat]

Hi Ivan,

I agree with you that the Apex 460 with the cathode follower is not "tube like" in sound. The existing circuit, even with better components sounds too "clean" for a tube mic.

What mods did you do?
What parts did you use?

I think what Rich is trying to do is a wonderful learning experience and with the right parts he can achieve great results. The wasted time is not wasted if a greater understanding of the microphone is gained.

The key is high quality parts. I have put Neumann and other high quality capsules in this mic and have had a very useable tool. There are other capsules that work very well in this mic.

Rich when you do this start slow and buy the very best capsule, transformer, NOS tube and electronic parts that you can afford. Do it one step at a time and document the change.

Best regards
Jim Jacobsen
JJ Audio

Custom Microphones and Mods

[rty5150]

Originally Posted by Haz-Mat-Strat

Hi Ivan,

I agree with you that the Apex 460 with the cathode follower is not "tube like" in sound. The existing circuit, even with better components sounds too "clean" for a tube mic.

What mods did you do?
What parts did you use?

I think what Rich is trying to do is a wonderful learning experience and with the right parts he can achieve great results. The wasted time is not wasted if a greater understanding of the microphone is gained.

The key is high quality parts. I have put Neumann and other high quality capsules in this mic and have had a very useable tool. There are other capsules that work very well in this mic.

Rich when you do this start slow and buy the very best capsule, transformer, NOS tube and electronic parts that you can afford. Do it one step at a time and document the change.

Best regards
Jim Jacobsen
JJ Audio

Custom Microphones and Mods

already swapped the tube in mine to a EH 6072a. never even heard the stock 12ax7. i pulled it out and it looked super cheap!
the capsule will be a peluso ck12, the new tranny will be the dave thomas bv11. haven't gotten any conclusive details on the cathode follower deal as the bulk of it was on studio forums and that site has been down for awhile. i figure that about another $250-300 will get me damn close to a sweet c12 type mic. i would love a peluso, but the tag i can't live with.

[BioMichanical]

Originally Posted by Haz-Mat-Strat

Hi Ivan,

I agree with you that the Apex 460 with the cathode follower is not "tube like" in sound. The existing circuit, even with better components sounds too "clean" for a tube mic.


Best regards
Jim Jacobsen
JJ Audio

Custom Microphones and Mods

Are you saying that removing the CF gives it a more 'tube-like' sound?

I've got an Apex 460 with the Peluso C12 capsule, EH 12ay7 tube, Cinemag tranny, CF removed, and some capacitor changes and I love that mic! Plus it was a lot of fun! I think I'd still like to change the PCB to an actual C12 circuit though, however I've never made PBC before, and I have read that biasing the tube on in a C12 circuit is pretty ellaborate.

[Michael_Joly]

The "tube like" sound is present whether the Cathode Follower is removed or not - the first stage of the 460 is a Plate Load circuit, a circuit associated with soft clipping "tubiness". The Cathode Follower simply functions as an impedance converter / transformer driver and is relatively neutral-sounding (compared to a plate load circuit driven hard).

[BioMichanical]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

The "tube like" sound is present whether the Cathode Follower is removed or not - the first stage of the 460 is a Plate Load circuit, a circuit associated with soft clipping "tubiness". The Cathode Follower simply functions as an impedance converter / transformer driver and is relatively neutral-sounding (compared to a plate load circuit driven hard).

Thanks for your explanation. I've always wondered about that yet all the research I've done never put it in such a way that I could understand as you have put it.

Question. I understand impedance converter, but what do you mean by "transformer driver"? Are you saying that with the Cathode Follower still intact that output hits the transformer a little harder (giving it more transformer color)?

[Haz-Mat-Strat]

Originally Posted by BioMichanical

Thanks for your explanation. I've always wondered about that yet all the research I've done never put it in such a way that I could understand as you have put it.

Question. I understand impedance converter, but what do you mean by "transformer driver"? Are you saying that with the Cathode Follower still intact that output hits the transformer a little harder (giving it more transformer color)?

BioMichanical,

The cathode follower circuit does not drive the transformer any harder, it has less gain then the plate follower. By taking the output from the cathode, it lowers the impedance and is able to drive the signal over longer distances. The AKG C60 and 61 were cathode follower circuits. That enabled some of the small condenser microphones (Altecs and C60) to place the transformer in the power supply. The Apex 460 uses both triodes and the output is taken from the cathode to the transformer. The Classic designs from AKG (the C12 & the Elam 251) use one triode and the output is taken from the plate.


Both circuits have their place and can be used effectively in the recording chain. We now are mostly a digital society, where everything is clean, pristine, digital and cold. Tube mics and tube gear in general, add back some of the warmth and color that we used to get with analog tape.

What is the color of the day?

Jim Jacobsen
JJ Audio

Custom Microphones and Mods

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Haz-Mat-Strat

We now are mostly a digital society, where everything is clean, pristine, digital and cold. Tube mics and tube gear in general, add back some of the warmth and color that we used to get with analog tape.

What is the color of the day?

Jim Jacobsen
JJ Audio

Custom Microphones and Mods

no-ones doubting that. But I doubt the use of the Z5600 in anything but demos.... nasty!! As I said before - rest of Se stuff is good for the money - but the Z5600 isn't good for half the money !!