Recording drums in a SMALL ROOM, who is doing it?

[copperx]

Is anyone recording drums in small spaces? such as 11 ft square rooms or the like?

If I treat the room (bass traps, broadband absorbers), is it possible to record good drum tracks in a small room?

[indie]

Originally Posted by copperx

Is anyone recording drums in small spaces? such as 11 ft square rooms or the like?

If I treat the room (bass traps, broadband absorbers), is it possible to record good drum tracks in a small room?

Absolutely...it can be done. I've recorded some great sounding drums in warner chappell's little publishing studio in LA several times. Probably 9 foot ceiling 10 feet wide and 6 feet deep!! Somewhere around those dimensions anyway.

[copperx]

Originally Posted by indie

Absolutely...it can be done. I've recorded some great sounding drums in warner chappell's little publishing studio in LA several times. Probably 9 foot ceiling 10 feet wide and 6 feet deep!! Somewhere around those dimensions anyway.

Really? wow. That sounds great. Do you remember how was the room treated?

[John Suitcase]

In my experience, smaller rooms require you to use fewer mics. The reflections cause phase issues if you try to go overboard.

I'd use a mono overhead, and possibly a kick mic. If stereo is important, use close mics on the toms, but keep them low in the mix.

It'll be hard to get too much stereo in that small of a space, anyway. The other thing is to encourage the drummer to go a little easy on the cymbals, especially any open high-hat bits.

I do drums in bedrooms all the time, it's not hard to get good sounds, just think about what you're doing, and listen closely. And a room mic out in the hall sounds pretty cool sometimes, too!

[JDinBNA]

I've been recording some drums in a small "back bedroom" here lately.
It's not very fun, hard to move around and do mic placement.

I'd say, the dead-er the better. The studio that has this paticular room has carpet on the floor and a maybe 1/3 of the surface area covered in foam. There is nothing on the ceiling, altleast right now. The door between the control room and the back room is a solid door, covered in foam on one side and a blanket/foam combo on the other.
(i think it needs some work)

The work is songwriting/publishing demos. A lot of gtr/vox demos, but plenty of full band stuff, too. A few weeks ago, we had an upright bass in the closet, a keyboard (audio&midi "for ivory"), and a drummer in the back room.
I believe I setup... 2 414s and a D112 (I was reading about that Glyn Johns guy)
I also put up a KSM32 on the snare.

[indie]

Originally Posted by John Suitcase

In my experience, smaller rooms require you to use fewer mics. The reflections cause phase issues if you try to go overboard.

I'd use a mono overhead, and possibly a kick mic. If stereo is important, use close mics on the toms, but keep them low in the mix....

Exactly right. That's my experience too.

[Jonboy79]

Once you get mic placement down you'd be surprised what you can do in a small room. My room is 8x9 with 7 foot ceilings. However I made a decisions to remove the drywall from the ceilings. The sound actually improved since instead of the ceiling ending at the bottom of the floor joists it now moves up to the subfloor giving me about 8 more inches, well besides the small 2 inch surface coming down every 16". Still not ideal, I'm a lover of huge rooms.

[gregl]

Been doing it a long time. I would concur with the fewer the mics the better.
The other thing, when making the room dead make sure you don't get too
much absorption at one band of frequencies. Try combinations of different
deadening materials on the walls ( I use 1x2 peices of rigid fiberglass and
corkboard among other stuff, with space in between for diffusion). Broadband
fiberglass bass absorbers in the corners make a huge difference.

[indie]

copperx asked if I had something to post of a small drum room recording. This is a small clip of a song we demoed at our publisher's demo room with the dimensions listed above.

'58 Ludwig kit _ kick :ATM 25 neve -- snare: 57 neve -- rack and floor toms: ATM 25's API 3124 -- Mono Overhead: ADK Commemorative Edition --A Designs MP2 --Chandler TG1.
The sound is mostly the mono overhead.
Micah

[Benmrx]

I actually really like the sound of drums in small dead rooms. Gives for that nice old school drum sound....with the toms especially...just SOOO dead. Zero ring on anything.

We've got a bigger room as well (30ft. x 20ft. or so with 16ft. ceilings), but the little 10ft. x 10ft. vocal booth sees drums more often these days.

In my experience, smaller rooms require you to use fewer mics. The reflections cause phase issues if you try to go overboard.

I'd use a mono overhead, and possibly a kick mic. If stereo is important, use close mics on the toms, but keep them low in the mix.

My experience has actually been quite the opposite. When I'm recording out in the big room I tend to use fewer mics, because the room is so "live" and there's usually quite a bit of bleed between mics. I can get a pretty rad drum sound out of 3 or 4 mics, But in the dead vocal booth, when I bring up my snare mic, I don't hear any toms, kick, etc. So I usually close mic everything.

[Joel DuBay]

Sonically, I like recording drums in a larger room. However, there is a great granite room at Pacyderm studios in Minnesota that has the most wonderful sound, and the room is small (and reflective) relative to other rooms.

For a smaller room, I think it is important to retain some of the natural ambience if possible. But achieving a better sonic space may require you to use bass trapping or HF absorption of some kind in some of the reflection areas, but not too much so you totally kill that small room sound. I'd say perhaps as many as 6 HF or broadband absorbers would get your room, and your overall drum sound to a more manageable point.
Use some OC703 or good Auralex foam to accomplish some of this.

My 2 centavos!

[Mark Cattano]

There's been some really great ideas here. I've been experimenting in my small basement studio with drum sounds, and agree with John Suitcase, the fewer the mics the better. I also agree with the post regarding trying to retain some of the room ambience, although depending on what you're dealing with, it is a huge variable. I've got all the classic trappings of a "bad" drum room, yet I've managed to yield some pretty decent results after experimenting. I say, "Be Creative". Where you situate the drums is also a huge factor. Case in point; I'm a friend of Jonathan Mover (drummer for Joe Satriani/Alice Cooper/Fuel). He came to my studio a few months back, and totally rewired my way of thinking in my small room. He moved the drums into a corner, and used a huge wooden platform bed that was downstairs in my basement and positioned it across from the kit, to be used a reflective surface. My room is sheetrock (ugh!) and carpeted (ugh!), yet this re-positioning and use of the platform bed was nothing short of ingenious. It gave the room sound much more life. That's what I mean when I say "be creative".

Keep the good ideas coming...

Mark Cattano
Magneto Studios

[Glenn Kuras]

I do agree that keeping some of the room sound is a good thing, but man bass trap will really help you out.. Some of the side wall reflection points is good also.. Use OC 703 spaced off the wall 2 inches will help out a lot.. One thing I have done (which this may be way to much for you) is put 2 inch panels on the whole ceiling spaced 2 inches off the ceiling.. It will help a lot to take out the flutter from the ceiling..

Glenn

[John Suitcase]

Yeah, whether the room is "live" or not will impact how many mics you can use. I always put the drummer in a corner, with his back to the corner. If you have a hard ceiling and floor, you can either throw a carpet on the floor, or put some auralex on the ceiling. Typically, I'm recording at someone's house, so I'm not too comfortable sticking things to the ceiling!

Mono overheads work very well in low-ceiling situations. In fact, you'd be surprised at how many great recordings have mono overheads. The stereo effect comes from the toms, the room, and some overdubbed percussion, like shakers and tambourines.

[Mark Cattano]

Hey John

Yes, I also, as per Jonathan Movers suggestion, use one mono overhead, and two "underheads", which can be quite effective in these situations. And a D112 in the kick, and that's it.

Mark Cattano
Magneto Studios
www.heedmusic.com

[sedohr]

Originally Posted by Mark Cattano

Hey John

Yes, I also, as per Jonathan Movers suggestion, use one mono overhead, and two "underheads", which can be quite effective in these situations. And a D112 in the kick, and that's it.

Mark Cattano
Magneto Studios
www.heedmusic.com

Mark, what do you mean by 2 underheads ? low positioned overheads ??

Kalli

[indie]

When using a mono overhead in a small room...good compression is your friend.

[sedohr]

Originally Posted by indie

When using a mono overhead in a small room...good compression is your friend.

Pretty big drum sound on your soundclip..

[Mark Cattano]

Kalli

Hey. Yeah, underhead mics on drums are something that has been discussed on GS a bit. It something that's done when recording in a low ceiling room such as mine. Instead of putting the mics up over the kit, close to the ceiling, you put them down at about groin height. This is the "underhead" position, as the mics are at about the level of the bottom of the toms. In low ceiling rooms, you get fast, weird reflections off the ceiling. This technique has been much, much better for me, in my room, than the standard overhead mic scenario. YMMV.

Mark Cattano

Magneto Studios

[valverec]

When I do it in a space that small, I go for as dead a sound as is possible. I've seen a lot of people try to suck room sound out of a small room like that, and it rarely seems to sound good. However, when I deaden up a small room like that, I get nice results. The phase gets so wacky in those small spaces, you almost have to deaden it.

[sedohr]

Originally Posted by Mark Cattano

Kalli

Hey. Yeah, underhead mics on drums are something that has been discussed on GS a bit. It something that's done when recording in a low ceiling room such as mine. Instead of putting the mics up over the kit, close to the ceiling, you put them down at about groin height. This is the "underhead" position, as the mics are at about the level of the bottom of the toms. In low ceiling rooms, you get fast, weird reflections off the ceiling. This technique has been much, much better for me, in my room, than the standard overhead mic scenario. YMMV.

Mark Cattano

Magneto Studios

Thanks Mark

That´s what I thought..

[username]

I'd be sujesting as much deadening of the room as you can get (especialy the low end!) and some realy nice reverbs

[indie]

Originally Posted by sedohr

Pretty big drum sound on your soundclip..

Yeah, it's strange ...that tiny room works great with compression. TG1 is the way to go, although the new TG1's sound different to me.

[bassics]

http://ul11.rapidshare.de/cgi-bin/up...34752781350656

heres a zip pack of 3 short drum clips of my drumming in my small bedroom studio where I also have my minimal setup...my kit is an old 60’s 18” kick & 13” & 14” toms that were given to me..a set of cracked hats, I use either a pearl 14” or mapex 10” snare and some Ziljians…the key is tuning, dampening and quality cymbals..drums are adjustable, cymbals aren’t as :D

...my mic collection is only a SM57, CAD CM17, NT2, AT Pro 25…I use all kinds of mic techniques but spend more time on the preparatory work on the drums themselves and compression [Fatman by TL Audio] sometimes I use surfaces to in my room [I have a coupla MDF boards I put up near overheads etc OR use dampening boards depending on the situation.
…I usually tend to run a closer than normal overhead NT2 and the AT pro25 on the kick…I do mostly hip hop breaks style stuff but have also done jazz & quirky rock with this little kit all in a small bedroom and absolutely love it, been recording in this and other small studios for a while now & kinda understand how the drums will sound before I hit record…

common/basic cheap tips would be:
- used heads cut into dampening rings are a must
- fabrics over heads [various things like T-Shirts etc for that Billy Jean dry deep feel, you may need to compensate tuning if using this method]
-paper in snares for extra crack
-taping of drums & cymbals as required
- different sticks/multiple sticks etc


Ohh I found a video of my kit [10" mapex snr in this] and you can see just how ordinary it is, audio is just straight thru sony camcorder......IMO good tone is 95% technique for most instruments

http://rapidshare.de/files/16517603/...SNARE.WMV.html

[djui5]

I recorded the drums on this song...

http://gearslutz.com/board/showpost....4&postcount=47


at this studio

http://tmlstudios.com/live%20room.htm

[tomwehrle]

my room is small, something like 12 by 10 with 7ft ceillings, its a basement, so whatever is normal for a basement ceilling. Anyways, everything i've done so far I've used 7 mics to record drums. 2 on overheads, 2 on the snare, 1 kick, then 2 toms and I think i've gotten some good results. Sometimes i've mixed it up and taken a mic off the bottom of the snare so there is only 1 mic on it and placing a mic on an additional 3rd tom, or hi-hat...but for 7 mics, I like 2 on the snare if i can pull it off. If you wanna hear clips, just go to one of my sites.

And just to throw it out there, I've never done a mono overhead and can't imagine doing that, I love my stereo overheads

[Waylon]

When I was in Kansas we had a couple fo rooms, and I actually loved recording drums in the little room ( literally 7x9 with a ceiling that sloped form 5' to 7') Bassically I covered every inch of that place, all the way aroung the walls with alternating bass traps ( floor to ceiling and 2' wide ) which had a hard surface, and then 2 ' wide absorbers made with Owens Corning 703 suspended 1.5" form the wall and covered in fabric. the ceiling was covered ( probablly 95% of it ) with the same type of absorber.... it was actually pretty funny when we were building it...

IT worked out that there were enough traps that there was no low end buildup, and the front of the traps was reflective so there was top end in there still. The last record I sis in that studio I actually recoerded everyhting in there just to make a point.. lol!

[John Suitcase]

Originally Posted by joemeekfreak

And just to throw it out there, I've never done a mono overhead and can't imagine doing that, I love my stereo overheads

You should try it sometime, you can get some interesting things happening. You can search these forums and find lots of examples of famous recordings with mono overheads.

I think stereo overheads are great, and I use them about 80% of the time, but sometimes mono is the way to go (like live, for instance), and it's almost always eaiser to get a solid drum mix going.)

[Mark Cattano]

I've got to chime in with John Suitcase again here. Stereo overheads are great, but depending upon the room, and the acoustics, there's just so many variables, that I've really been sold on the mono overhead mic used in conjunction with some "underheads". This combination has yielded great results in my small, low ceiling room. Mind you, I am treating the drum set like an instrument, and am getting a complete "room" sound for them, there's virtually no isolation on the kit mics. So, IMHO, what comes into play here is the DRUMMER, the KIT, the CYMBALS ( I prefer lighter, faster, quicker decay, in this situation), and how well the drummer tunes the kit. There was a great article detailing alot of this in Tape Op with Dave Mattacks about a year ago. Do some research and find the Dave Mattacks interview, it was quite edifying, to say the least. As always, YMMV.

Good Luck!

Mark Cattano
Magneto Studios
www.heedmusic.com
www.myspace.com/markcattano