Swediens magic mix's and stereo sources

[Fezzle]

After listening to Off The Wall and Thriller again recently , Ive been listening carefully and its been something thats just blown me away musically and soundwise.. music and performance aside, ive really noticed how the some of the sources, whether theyre panned or not, have incredible dimension and theyre own sense of width and stereo field.. This really adds to the experience.. my question is , do you think he even did this with mono sources such as guitar amps..? even the popcorn guitar parts seem to have this extra dimension to them.. would it work stereo miking an amp and would you get something 'extra' widthwise from how the rooms reacting with the amp, i guess if so you wouldnt be able to get that close in for the effect to really open up...
I dunno, just wondering i guess, i love listening to those records, it really feels at times like your always in different spaces, like a collage of depths and widths

Anyone please chime in with any tricks youve tried for cool effect

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Have you seen his mic collection? And he records live players, using lots of ambiance in big rooms. He even put a sheet of plywood under MJ to help to capture the ambiance of his dancing and body slaps while singing.

[edva]

He pretty famously said at one point that he left up a stereo pair, and moved the musicians around the room, including overdubs, to get that "dimension", AFAIR.

Check out his Q&A on here. There's an enormous wealth of information.

[TRA]

Search some of Bruce's old posts. I recall him posting recall sheets that showed everything being recorded in stereo.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

To return to your question about micing a guitar amp... it is a single point source with no stereo image to record that cannot be duplicated in mixdown. If you record in any proper stereo mic technique, what is in each channel will be identical.

But what a lot of people do to get depth in such recordings is to record with 2 or even 3 mics.. a close mic, a mic a few feet into the room, and one way back in the room. Blend to taste in mixdown.

The number of things that Bruce has to work with that we do not is pretty large.

[NEWTON IN ORBIT]

Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome

To return to your question about micing a guitar amp... it is a single point source with no stereo image to record that cannot be duplicated in mixdown. If you record in any proper stereo mic technique, what is in each channel will be identical.

But what a lot of people do to get depth in such recordings is to record with 2 or even 3 mics.. a close mic, a mic a few feet into the room, and one way back in the room. Blend to taste in mixdown.

The number of things that Bruce has to work with that we do not is pretty large.

What?!

This would mean that you couldn't get any stereo recording of one singer, violin, triangle whatever it is. Nonsense.

Of course you can make a stereo recording of anything.

Did I miss something? Not sure what you are saying here Bill.

john

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by NEWTON IN ORBIT

What?!

This would mean that you couldn't get any stereo recording of one singer, violin, triangle whatever it is. Nonsense.

Of course you can make a stereo recording of anything.

Did I miss something? Not sure what you are saying here Bill.

john

It is a case of source-dependence. Returning to the idea that we don't have the kind of room that Bruce Sweiden has, but instead a small home studio... if I record the triangle using, let's say, a coincident pair from 6 feet.... there is going to be plenty of primary signal and little ambiance... but some. When you up the ante to a guitar amp with a high sustained volume (rather than a sharp percussive rise with a quick drop in level such as that produced by a triangle), I would not expect to hear a lot of ambiance in that pair of mics. The ambiance I can get using mics staggered out into the room has proven to be much more useful for me in my small studio. Haven't tried either at home yet, but I expect the volume differences between the direct and ambient sounds to prove out about the same.... guitar amps not to have so much, vocals might have a bit, percussive sounds to have more than the others. Try it, you'll probably find the same thing.

On a related note: Years ago a symphony violinist wanted me to record him in his home. When I got the stereo mic distance adequate to make the violin blend it's body tones, the reflections from the walls blurred the image... it was not a pretty ambiance. When he would stop the following slap of the last notes was interesting, but during the performance... ugh. The room was too small, the reflections too bright. It is interesting what our mind tells our ears to hear live, verses the cold hard truth of the playback.

And of course you can make a "stereo" recording of anything.

[Fezzle]

this is my point entirely, from what Ive done to good success is mic up some horn players taking up about 6 feet of width towards the back of a mid sized room.. I micd up Blumlein in Omni about 1 metre from the middle of theyre spread, that worked real nice. But with a single instrument the direct is only coming from one place or... ok maybe 1/2 foot wide cone.. but, surely the reflections and room sound still give stereo information ..?

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by Fezzle

....with a single instrument the direct is only coming from one place or... ok maybe 1/2 foot wide cone.. but, surely the reflections and room sound still give stereo information ..?

Sure. How much depends upon the instrument. You asked about a guitar amp. As in our above examples, a guitar amp (usually) presents a much different signal than a human voice or a triangle.

The term "stereo" has meaning. Micing in stereo is not the same as using two mics.

"Blumlein in Omni " what is it you are describing? crossed cardioids? M/S? I'm not familiar with this term.

[Fezzle]

sure, Ill have two SDC's or LDC's / ribbons , put the two mics together with one capsule at 45 degrees from one side of the source/s , then the other capsule at 45 towrds the other side of them, one mic on top of the other.. Ill have both mics in Omni if I can, Ive always found the results bigger/interesting sounding than in cardioid.. more reflections i guess.

[Tom Higgins]

I thought Blumlein was with two ribbons/figure-8s?

[Fezzle]

Originally Posted by Tom Higgins

I thought Blumlein was with two ribbons/figure-8s?

oops! Yes indeed typically fig.8, though ive still had good results in omni

[NEWTON IN ORBIT]

Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome

It is a case of source-dependence. Returning to the idea that we don't have the kind of room that Bruce Sweiden has, but instead a small home studio... if I record the triangle using, let's say, a coincident pair from 6 feet.... there is going to be plenty of primary signal and little ambiance... but some. When you up the ante to a guitar amp with a high sustained volume (rather than a sharp percussive rise with a quick drop in level such as that produced by a triangle), I would not expect to hear a lot of ambiance in that pair of mics. The ambiance I can get using mics staggered out into the room has proven to be much more useful for me in my small studio. Haven't tried either at home yet, but I expect the volume differences between the direct and ambient sounds to prove out about the same.... guitar amps not to have so much, vocals might have a bit, percussive sounds to have more than the others. Try it, you'll probably find the same thing.

On a related note: Years ago a symphony violinist wanted me to record him in his home. When I got the stereo mic distance adequate to make the violin blend it's body tones, the reflections from the walls blurred the image... it was not a pretty ambiance. When he would stop the following slap of the last notes was interesting, but during the performance... ugh. The room was too small, the reflections too bright. It is interesting what our mind tells our ears to hear live, verses the cold hard truth of the playback.

And of course you can make a "stereo" recording of anything.

I have tried it, and have used an x/y some before. Sometimes it works and you bury it a bit in the mix, sometimes it's crap.

I was just disputing the notion that whatever was in both channels would be identical, because that's what you stated. I think the OP should experiment, and telling him it would do nothing, wasn't straight.

Try it and see what you get. Know your room.

You are onto something though Bill, that if the room sucks, this is really going to suck, and probably be useless. Stereo ain't always better, or even good.

This x/y does work on acoustic gtr, to good effect though, close in.

And yes Blumlein is two figure of 8's matched.

Good luck Fezzle,
john

[NEWTON IN ORBIT]

Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome

As in our above examples, a guitar amp (usually) presents a much different signal than a human voice or a triangle.

Our examples? Your examples.

Are you a retired teacher or something?

john

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by NEWTON IN ORBIT

Our examples? Your examples.
john

"What?! This would mean that you couldn't get any stereo recording of one singer, violin, triangle whatever it is. Nonsense."

Your examples.

"Are you a retired teacher or something?"

No, but I have written and taught about audio. On line we all get a little sloppy in our conversations and someone usually calls us on it. I try to be clear, but there is often more than one thing going on around here and at times I don't get to put the thought down as clearly as I might have done.

You work in the industry and troupe shows across the country, details become important.