Which pre choice sucks less?

[copperx]

I have a budget of around $1000 for pres for tracking drums and everything else (rock bands).

I've searched and searched and I've come up with 2 solutions

I don't know what sucks less:

(1) Tracking drums with shitty pres (Beh*** ADA8000) and the rest of the tracks [bass, VOX, GTRs, etc] with a GREAT pre (Great River ME-1NV), comes up about $1300.

OR

(2) Tracking EVERYTHING through a mid-level pre (Sytek). About $900.

[Brad McGowan]

Who says you have to settle for Behringer? Why not get a Presonus Digimax? Or look into a Black Lion Audio modified SM8-Pro?

Brad

[robd]

with that budgett you have a lot of other options. I don't have any experience with sytek, but my inclination in that range would be to get some kind of mackie onyx board or interface. I would never ever, under any circumstances (even a noise show) put anything behringer ever made anywhere in my signal path.

[octatonic]

Get a secondhand mixer.

I bought a D&R series 4000 inline console for about $150 that I am recapping.
All up it will have cost me about $700.
Gives me 16 pre's and 32 channels for mixdown.

[KevWest]

id rather just not record

[against88]

like someone mentioned earlier, isnt the mackie onyx 8 channel banger around $1000 ??

[warhead]

If you don't need conversion etc and just 8 preamps the Mackie Onyx 1620 would be great plus you'd have other features available (like monitor mixing etc).

War

[lobsterinn]

If you do need conversion, I recommend the Focusrite Octopre LE. For under $700 you can have 8 really solid (clean and open) mic pres and better than you would expect AD/DA conversion. I got one recently and have been continually surprised by how well it stacks up.

[popmann]

Well..I've not heard the B uint. I have owned a GRnv. And have used the Sytek for a decent period of time.

Personally, I think the low rent solution of choice for me would be the Sytek and a GT Brick. I think between the two, you've got the bases covered. If you plan to do drums with the Sytek, you probably want the two channel BB option. It yeilds a little transient "smoosh" that should work for kick/snare. And the total would be $1200ish. I think the next step up, particularly if you're doing drums is a 4 ch API...3124 is what $2200 or so?

That said, I've not used the Onyx. If they are decent pres/EQ and you firewire them directly to your computer, it's probably the most cost effective way to track a whole band at once. Assuming they don't suck. Don't discount the improvement brought by subtle EQ tweaks going in...

With the Sytek/Brick, you're still going to eat the Sytek with kick/snare/OVHD...and the Brick with a bass DI...or the Brick on the Kick and add a room mic...you're not really gonna track a whole band, which is where the magic is.

I don't think the NV is a good "all around" choice. It's a bottom heavy, high attenuated vintage voiced preamp...barre none killer Bass DI...I would assume good for kick...does nice stuff given a bright enough mic...

Another option here that maybe no one else will point out...a recorder like the Akai DPS24. It's pres easily sit on par with the Syteks and RNPs and DMP3s of the world (and yes, I've had them both side by side)...they work equally well with dynamics as condensors...have analog insert points to track using analog compression...I got mine for $2200. 12 preamps. Also the best sounding digital mixer I've ever used, but that's another discussion. You can't beat all in one units for reliably tracking whole bands worth of tracks/cue mixes/preamps, etc on a budget.

[lobsterinn]

I have to second the endorsement for the GT Brick. It is a great compliment to cleaner pres like the Syteks, Focusrites, Mackies, etc. Very nice on bass, acoustics, room mics and vocals.

[Reggie Love]

If my drummer had short legs, I would prop up his kick pedal on the Behringer ADA8000 and use an Audient ASP008 with ADAT card, (which actually does the job it claims to do on the tin), and save my pennies for a more specialised pre later on.

[jslevin]

The Mackie Onyx pres are shockingly decent, so I would have to echo the suggestions for the 800R or one of their small consoles. I've heard every generation of Mackie preamp, and the old ones were widely viewed as better than Behringer, and the new ones are a very nice step up from the old ones.

It wasn't clear from your post whether you need inline converters along with your preamps. If you don't, then you can probably find a Mackie Onyx 1620 for not much more than $500. Eight pres, 8 line inputs, two decent DIs, and balanced pre-fader direct outs on all sixteen channels. Plus, they throw a mixer in to boot!

To answer your broader question, it would help to know not just what you're doing this month, but what you're doing NEXT month. Your best bet may be to buy the ME-1NV and then just rent a nicer eight-channel piece on the odd occasion that you're tracking a lot of channels. Dreamhire lists a four-channel API 3124M at $80 per day, and eight-channel Millennia is $110. At those prices, why even mess around?

I would add, even if a nice rental facility isn't in your area, I bet there are plenty of recording studios, including home studios, who would be willing to rent out a piece of under-utilized gear under the right circumstances. The amount of quality gear that sits around unused in this world is just staggering.

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by popmann

That said, I've not used the Onyx. If they are decent pres/EQ and you firewire them directly to your computer, it's probably the most cost effective way to track a whole band at once. Assuming they don't suck. Don't discount the improvement brought by subtle EQ tweaks going in...

If I'm not mistaken, all the Onyx gear's direct-outs, and Firewire-outs, are pre-fader, pre-mute, pre-insert and pre-EQ. So to get the EQ to tape, you'd have to do a little extra analog routing.

[jslevin]

The pre's are actually as good as the pre's in a Digi 002R, so it's not like they are awful.

Actually, it is like they are awful.

With the $1K not spent on pre's and converters, you can buy stuff that MATTERS like microphones, clips, stands, and lunch for the performers.

The man said he had $1000 budgeted specifically for preamps. If he asks me about his overall budget I can give him an answer. Barring that, I'm trying to answer the question he asked. For all we know, he's already spent "too much" on mics and hasn't spent "enough" on preamps in comparison.

[popmann]

I would add, even if a nice rental facility isn't in your area, I bet there are plenty of recording studios, including home studios, who would be willing to rent out a piece of under-utilized gear under the right circumstances.

Or...Allah forbid...you actually use those studio's pres and mics and room to get your basics laid down, and take the WAV tracks back to your studio for editing/overdubbing/mixing.

I can have room here with decent rooms, a killer mic closet and 30ch of great pres for $35/hr. They already have a drum kit set up and mic'd...drummer brings his snare and hat if need be...knock out a handful of rehearsed tunes in an evening.

Project studios work best, IMO, as satellites to "real" studios.

Just an idea.

[tomwehrle]

You can pick up a sytek on here for 700, just saw one in the classifieds, so you could get 2 of them and you'd be right around 1500w/shipping...if you're not wanting to keep them, resell, they keep their value more so then the other stuff mentioned on here...something to consider

[Jonboy79]

Get the ada and use drumagog, then your pre's won't matter and you can track the important stuff thru the great river.

[copperx]

Thank you for all the responses.

Actually, I'm trying to get away from the "project studio" sound that
is prevalent around my town. Granted, I KNOW I don't need the best gear.

The main problems in all project studios around my town are:

(1) Horrible, horrible acoustics (the best studio has a very
expensive custom DW drumset in a 8x8x10 parallel-wall concrete room,
with no treatment whatsoever: hideous sound)

(2) Engineers have no clue nor they care. Throw a couple mics over
the drumset and they are all set. 1 minute drum setup. Great.

(3) Gear. Some studios have a pretty nice mic collection. However, they
do strange things with the signals. One has an ADA8000 (with a a "pristine"
signal path: Mic->Mackie Board pre->Some cheap pre->ADA8000 pre ), one has a Digi002, one has even cheaper stuff.

In short, I'm trying to build a nice room with nice electronics so that
bands with gear can use ME as a "satellite", or even to do complete projects.

Of course, I'm not expecting any real income out of this, just enough to pay
for more toys. My first concern is audio quality, though. I've heard the
pres/converters on the 002R and they are very, very bad. The ADA8000
sounds much better, IMO. Perhaps the unit they have is bad.

~$2000 is the budget for mics+pres. After a LOT of forum reading, listening,
I've ended up with a mic list that is $1000 and I can track drums with.
It wasn't easy. That leaves me with $1000 for the pres. Not a good
budget for a GREAT multi-channel preamplifier, so I'm trying to get GOOD
here. Sytek seems to fit the bill. However, $1000 is a good budget for
a GREAT signle-channel preamp, so I though, how much my mixes would
be compromised by tracking drums with bad pres and tracking the rest
with the GR?

Another option came to mind: 4 Seventh Circle Audio C84 preamps
comes about $900, and I can add APIsh and Neveish channels
cheaply later as budget permits.

Or maybe I can go DIY, there are some good clean "Green preamps"
being built by guys over at prodigy-pro forums that come at about $100/channel,
based in some Amek design ...

Then, after your posts, I wonder ... am I doing something wrong?

[jslevin]

You are spoiled by the relatively high quality of cheap pre's, and the relative affordability of "pretty good" ($1000, stereo) models.

I grant you that it's a matter of opinion, and everything is relative.

In my view, anyone who is even considering an ME-1NV will find an ADA-1000 to be awful. Then again, I guess you could make the opposite argument.

[jslevin]

I quite agree. Can't imagine why I didn't suggest that. We do plenty of business like that ourselves.

Originally Posted by popmann

Or...Allah forbid...you actually use those studio's pres and mics and room to get your basics laid down, and take the WAV tracks back to your studio for editing/overdubbing/mixing.

I can have room here with decent rooms, a killer mic closet and 30ch of great pres for $35/hr. They already have a drum kit set up and mic'd...drummer brings his snare and hat if need be...knock out a handful of rehearsed tunes in an evening.

Project studios work best, IMO, as satellites to "real" studios.

Just an idea.

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by copperx

Then, after your posts, I wonder ... am I doing something wrong?

Not from what I can tell. I think you're on the right track, and I think all of the preamp options you have identified have their good points and are reasonable options. I think you will notice the difference going with the Mackie Onyx over some of the other stuff, but that's just my opinion. With $2000 to spend on mics and pres, I don't think I could justify spending over $500 on just one preamp channel.

[tomwehrle]

I haven't played with my new Sytek, which I will shortly, but i also recently got a Portico 5012 and the thing is, I used to think my pres were pretty good, i have a DBX (which I'm selling) and a HHB Radius 10, which were tube pres...and like I said, never had a problem with them, thought I got some good sounds...well, when I got my portico, I hooked it up real quick and recorded some acoustic guitar, thought it sounded good in my headphones, then played it on my monitors, thought it still sounded really nice...so i then thought I should pull up a old session with acoustic and the same mics to hear the difference, that's when I was blown away, i then realized how bad it sounded compared to the new pre...i feel like now the sound i'm recording doesnt need eq and it sounds like something on a eally big professional cd...i've heard really good things on here about the Sytek on drums, and I can't wait to try it out and see how much better of a sound i get...personally, like i think i mentioned before, I'd spend the extra money on a nicer pre, it will not only keep its resail value better, but it will make your recordings sound better

[AdamJay]

i think it was the Octopre LE that got a good Tape Op review in the last issue.
those are $600 for 8 channels. ($450-$500 used). if you need that many channels, its a steal.

if you don't need that many channels, consider something that will give you a better sound for your money, like the Mackie Onyx 400f for $100 more.
No offense to the Sytek but i think the 400f really competes and wins out in the sub $1k 4-channel range.

for color, add a used GT "The Brick" for $250-$300.

[pieninja]

i am in a similar situation, as in i am trying to decide on mic pre's, and i think that the presonus digimax is winning me over. i only wish that it ALSO had analouge direct-outs like the m-audio octane. Has any one used an octane or know anything about them. I could imagine that sort of thing coming in handy from time to time for any studio.

[dshay]

I've used the focusrite octopre...

I would recommend giving them a serious look given your budget. For the money, they're money.

[jslevin]

I also find that the analog direct-outs can really come in handy. You can also find that feature on the Focusrite Octopre (both versions I believe), Mackie Onyx 800R or any of the Onyx mixers, and RME Octamic D.