Behringer and other cheap gear bashing: snobbery or justified?

[Boschen]

Originally Posted by TrenchRun

SNIP
A kia will get you to hollywood just as well as a mercedes...maybe just not as fast or with as much style. but if you go the right way, it will get you there. And the mercedes might even just be the one to break down first.

On a related note, how many people would even drive a Mercedes if no one ever saw them doing it?

[Gretsch 6120]

Originally Posted by Boschen

On a related note, how many people would even drive a Mercedes if no one ever saw them doing it?

I think these sorts of analogies sort of miss the point IMO. Comparing a Behringer Ultragain preamp to an API or Avalon, for example, is silly because they’re on two completely different price point and quality levels. However, not everyone needs an API or an Avalon, and for most demo and home studio caliber work I’d argue it’s a bit of overkill. Let’s face it, 99% of what’s produced in most peoples’ homes or project studios these days gets no further than a couple of websites and the limited distribution among friends and select networks. Very rarely does any of it reach mass distribution levels, and even if it does, it’s not getting to that level based on the preamp used for that particular recording; thus, the gear isn’t what’s making or breaking a particular song or artists.

That said, I’d love to own an API lunchbox, a Great River pre, etc. and I’d love to be able to justify it. I’d take one of those any day over a Presonus or Behrigner offering, but I’m also glad that there are other more cost-effective alternatives available. At some point a bottleneck exists between quality, need, and price point, and I think companies like Behringer have successfully addressed that bottleneck by offering decent and even some nice gear at an affordable price.

I don’t need a Mercedes to get from point A to point B, but they sure are nice if you can afford one. That aforementioned Kia will have to do in the meantime, and at some point you have to adopt the “it is what it is” attitude. Get on with writing, making music, tracking, and mixing, and stop worrying about the vehicle so much!!!

Chris

[Silent Sound]

How many Behringer hate threads do we need?

And what's up with these car analogies? Hyundai's are more reliable than Mercedes' and Jaguar's. So what does that have to do with audio?

It all comes down to the individual unit. Case in point: I had a Marshall JCM 900 half stack and still have a Bugera V22 (made by Behringer). The Marshall never sounded as good as the Bugera, and it gave me far more problems. By looking at the two you'd think the Marshall was better built, and in many aspects it was. But in practice, it didn't turn out to be. Also the Marshall 1960a cab I had was very ruggedly built, but those Celestion G12T75 speakers in it never sounded as good as the Bugera "Vintage" 70 watter that came with the V22. I ran both amps through both speakers and the Bugera speaker sounded better with either amp. So I sold the Marshall, and kept the Bugera.

So, is Bugera better than Marshall? In this case, I'd say yes. But I had a Behringer monitor volume controller that only worked for about ten seconds, so I took it back and got something else. My Eurodesk mini-mixer is noisy as hell and the EQ is a joke, but it'll power some headphones in a non-critical situation, no problem. My Behringer B212D powered PA speakers work great and I've never had a problem with them. They're plenty loud and the bass is tight, but they're also a bit harsh to listen to. When I worked at Guitar Center, I never saw anyone return a Behringer PA speaker, but I'll bet at least a third of those Mackie Thump PA speakers got returned because they broke down within the first month.

Point is, you get what you pay for, and with Behringer, you're paying for a good value, not a name brand, and not hand-built and extensively researched and tested equipment. Not everything they make is golden, but if you'll remember, Telefunken (on the M16) got busted rebranding a cheap Chinese mic, so any brand can fail on you.

A final note. I've never met a girl named Laura that I liked. Does that mean all Lauras are bad people? No. It just means I've had bad luck with Lauras. In reality, it's more of a reflection on me than it is on people named Laura.

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by Justsomeguy

I, like so many others here, have had my fair share of berri gear though the years. however, the instance that sticks in my mind is this;

And friend and I were running an open mic; a very simple, very small rig, with some nice speakers and a little alesis desk (not great but very usable). my friend had been offered the behringer ultragraph digital for £20 from someone we knew was upgrading his rig and didn't use the berri anymore. my friend had been looking for a basic graphic eq for the monitors on his rig and so he thought "meh, i'll try it and if i like it it's only £20!". So, the easiest place to test it was at the open mic as a main graphic for the rig. however, for the first time in ever the PA sounded awful! we'd been using a cheapy graphic before (the name and make i can't remember for the life of me....peavy maybe?!) and when we plugged in the berri we had set identical settings as they had always worked for the room. however, whatever we did it just sounded dreadful. in the end, i hit the "bypass" button and suddenly it sounded much better. i thought "ok, i'll flatten the Eq and try again"...... even with a totally flat EQ, the tone it was producing was AWFUL! that's when we realised that the magic button on most berri gear is the "bypass".

Saying that, i still use an old euromix every now and then and although i grumble when i do it does get the job done. the DI boxes are very usable and take a fair kicking on a live stage. the ADA8000 is outstanding for the price!

and yet, the behringer digital eq DCX2496 is so well respected for it's accuracy and programmability that it has for several years been a recommended tool for use with the famous and exceedingly well respected Room EQ Wizard software.

I don't doubt in your situation that the berry sounded different from the graphic eq that was in use before, but one thing behringer has been doing VERY well for many years now is digital sound. They were actually ahead of the curve with digital compressors and digital programmable rack mount eqs, and the sound quality is typically considered to be really good in their digital gear. It's very highly likely that the eq had different q settings and so forth which was the cause of strong differences. Either that or you really liked the sound of the very likely extremely inaccurate cheap analog eq you were replacing (although that seems less likely based on your description of the berry's bypass control incident which points the cause at user error).

On a behringer digital eq, there is NO eq in the chain when it's set to neutral, it's completely transparent. I've used one many many times in live gigs (they're in pretty much every club) and in my own recording studio. If you heard a difference when it wasn't set to bypass then it was user error - there was still something not set to flat in the eq.

Don't blame the gear when the problem is a lack of understanding of how to correctly operate the gear. Digital eqs are certainly more challenging to use than a simple graphic eq, even though they're vastly superior to analog graphic eqs in pretty much ever situation.

Hence why these berry digital eqs have replaced so many alesis and dbx analog graphic eqs over the years.

EDIT: Of course I didn't mention one possibility - there could have been something seriously broken with the berry eq that the guy sold you for cheap.... how well did you know him? ;-)

ANYHOW, now that I've falled into the trap of defending a behringer product against undue criticism (yet again), I'll go on to say this:

some pricey gear IS superior to cheap gear. It's normally better built, often has pricey components such as big audio transformers in and/or out which change the sound in what many consider to be attractive ways, and certainly pricey gear will tend to last under extreme use more than cheap gear when talking about the pots, buttons, and just overall circuit board reliability etc. Better quality capacitors and such also cost more money, with either improved sonics, or more often improved lifespan as a result. Some optocouplers (in optocompressors) cost much more than others, and they all have unique operation, so a pricier optocompressor (la2a) can do things differently, and therefore sound different, than an affordable (yet great) opto such as a pro vla.

However I own and use lots of cheap gear along with my pricey stuff (some VERY pricey) and have spent years trying thousands of bits of gear (literally) to find what I like that is cheap and what I must spend more on to get the results I want. In each case I've professionally worked with industry standard high end gear and then tried to find the most affordable product that could get me the same results. In the end I've found many cheap pieces I adore (not all behringer of course), and many pricey pieces that I would never sell either.

There is certainly truth in pricey gear being worth while, specially so if you're in a real working dedicated 24/7 recording studio. But sonically and for features there is nothign lacking in most behringer gear, and some of their items actually sound better than the affordable competition to my ears (such as some of the amp sim hardware and active DIs with amp sims built in, bass amps, some of their bugera guitar amps, and in some ways their cheap studio monitors are much more neutral, which I desire, than similarly priced KRKs and such).

cheers

[foxhole]

I had one behringer headphone that worked alright. Not very cool looking, but it was good. Im sure you can make a decent album with their stuff, but I'd rather stick to the high end.

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by Silent Sound

A final note. I've never met a girl named Laura that I liked. Does that mean all Lauras are bad people? No. It just means I've had bad luck with Lauras. In reality, it's more of a reflection on me than it is on people named Laura.

haha, I know you weren't being literal, but as with the behringer threads on this forum, I can respond (in this case truthfully) that I've dated Laura's very successfully but with brutally rough relationship endings and also married a Laura (not at the same time...).

One man's Laura is another man's Marshall/Celestion combo...

[alexevans917]

I, like many other people here, get both sides of the argument.

On one hand, Behringer gear is cheap and usable. I currently have two of their small mixing boards, a graphic EQ, and a mic. None of it is phenomenal, but it is all very functional. None of it has ever broken down or caused any problems in the middle of a gig or recording session. I bought one of the mixers used with the graphic equalizer for a grand total of $50. It's now the main board in my acoustic PA and works well. Are the pres great? Of course not. Do they work and make a sound that pretty much every audience member is satisfied with? Yes.

I use my Behringers for tracking demos at home, and for smaller acoustic shows where I'm required to provide PA. For my own official releases, I use a professional studio stocked with vintage RCA, Neve, UA, Neumann, etc. For some people, this is a complete impossibility. For a long time it was for me. For those who need a lot for very little, Behringer does it and does it well for the price.

[jimbridgman]

Why does it matter what others think of the gear.

If you get what you want out of it, that is all that matters.

Yes for the most part Behringer gear has been thought of as cheap toys for over 20 years now.

As I have said over and over on this board, it is not the gear that is the issue, it is the engineer. If you can not get a good sound out of todays cheap gear, you might think about buying studio time, and having an engineer do his job.

In the digital age even some of the cheapest crappiest gear, is better than some of the expensive stuff from 20 years ago.

I don't now nor have I ever owned Behringer gear, but like I said if it works, who cares what others think of the gear.

Jim

[IVIaverick52]

Originally Posted by jimbridgman

In the digital age even some of the cheapest crappiest gear, is better than some of the expensive stuff from 20 years ago.

Jim

I couldn't agree more. I'm sorry but if you go off of what so many engineers care about technically these days (noise floor, dynamic range, frequency response, etc...) then The Beatles recording were some of the worst on the planet. But let's face it, we are the only ones that care, the general public doesn't. 16 year old Sally from Los Angeles doesn't know whether you used a Behringer mixer or an SSL G-series console, and let's face it, most established engineers these days are in all reality making music for the 12-16 year old market *cough*Rafa Sardina*cough*

[jimbridgman]

Originally Posted by IVIaverick52

I couldn't agree more. I'm sorry but if you go off of what so many engineers care about technically these days (noise floor, dynamic range, frequency response, etc...) then The Beatles recording were some of the worst on the planet. But let's face it, we are the only ones that care, the general public doesn't. 16 year old Sally from Los Angeles doesn't know whether you used a Behringer mixer or an SSL G-series console, and let's face it, most established engineers these days are in all reality making music for the 12-16 year old market *cough*Rafa Sardina*cough*

I could not agree more, and funny thing, no one has really duplicated the beatles sound with any true fidelity since the time it was made, and many have tried.

It is sad but true how all of the POP music of today supports the whole structure of the music business now, and it is not good talented artists either, think MJ, a POP icon, and he WAS talented. Now that is not what I would normally listen to but to each thier own I guess.

Many years ago I had more different types of artists / styles of music in my studio then even still seem to exist on paper....

Now underground that is a different story, but most good music from all different styles seems to be in that underground, that just does not see the light of day as much anymore. Think of artists like Jeff Beck, Stevie Wonder, Larry Carlton, John Mclaughlin, and many more that really should be in the forefront way more, but it is sad they all had thier 15 min. in the ever changing "spotlight" that we call the music biz. Again these are not artists that I frequent, but they all have more talent in thier pinky than most of todays top artists.

Jim

[Justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by dkelley

.

EDIT: Of course I didn't mention one possibility - there could have been something seriously broken with the berry eq that the guy sold you for cheap.... how well did you know him? ;-)

lol, if i'm completely honest it turned out the it was in fact VERY broken he took it home and tried some other stuff and a lot of features didn't work at all and it appears, from what he said, to have been thoroughly ragged in it's time. he even had a chat with the guy who was selling it who admitted that some of the features didn't work but thought it was fine otherwise (in my defence i asked him that earlier after seeing your response. i'm sure he'd failed to mention it before as the anecdote still makes him giggle) the main reason my friend had looked at getting it was for exactly the reasons you suggest and we've both used the standard Ultragraph a lot on live racks so expected a similar feel/sound with some added features (plus, for £20 it was a bargain)

As i said, the DI boxes (both the single and rack units) are great and the ADA8000 is incredibly hard to beat without spending a lot more money.

[KevWest]

I think it just depends on the gear in question honestly. I have been using a BCF 2000 off and on since 2005 and its been solid. Love it.

Sent from my BlackBerry 8530 using Tapatalk

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by Justsomeguy

lol, if i'm completely honest it turned out the it was in fact VERY broken he took it home and tried some other stuff and a lot of features didn't work at all and it appears, from what he said, to have been thoroughly ragged in it's time. he even had a chat with the guy who was selling it who admitted that some of the features didn't work but thought it was fine otherwise (in my defence i asked him that earlier after seeing your response. i'm sure he'd failed to mention it before as the anecdote still makes him giggle) the main reason my friend had looked at getting it was for exactly the reasons you suggest and we've both used the standard Ultragraph a lot on live racks so expected a similar feel/sound with some added features (plus, for £20 it was a bargain)

As i said, the DI boxes (both the single and rack units) are great and the ADA8000 is incredibly hard to beat without spending a lot more money.

hahaha, that's funny :-)

Well, people do sometimes try to pull fast one, even a sort of polite "oops, I'm sure I mentioned the problems..." kind of fast one.

oh well :-)

cheers
Don

[cargojon]

Originally Posted by foxhole

I had one behringer headphone that worked alright. Not very cool looking, but it was good. Im sure you can make a decent album with their stuff, but I'd rather stick to the high end.

This is why I scratch my chin at this forum. It's the "low end" forum, mostly what I see is people like me, who do the music thing in their basements on evenings and weekends, getting told that their music will should like crap without $5000+ worth of gear. I always thought this forum was for guys that wanted to get the best budget stuff out there....but it seems that the guys who don't have the disposable cash to run out and buy some Eventide unit or something get beaten up when they want to find out about a Lexicon they can actually afford.....

/rant

[jimbridgman]

Originally Posted by cargojon

This is why I scratch my chin at this forum. It's the "low end" forum, mostly what I see is people like me, who do the music thing in their basements on evenings and weekends, getting told that their music will should like crap without $5000+ worth of gear. I always thought this forum was for guys that wanted to get the best budget stuff out there....but it seems that the guys who don't have the disposable cash to run out and buy some Eventide unit or something get beaten up when they want to find out about a Lexicon they can actually afford.....

/rant

Well, the gear you mention was/is what the low end is/should be about. The question I ask is why buy the cheap (in otherwords not built well, not price so to speak), new piece of gear, rather than an incredible piece of used gear that was built to last, and sounds incredible but it now might be considered "low end". The Low end area here, covers such a wide range of price and gear.

Now I recently could have bought a Prism Orpheus interface, but I instead bought the Liquid Saffire 56, becuase it really had the "color" I was looking for, it sounds and feels way more analog than the prism does. Now, it is not better than the prism in any fashion, but it fit what I was looking for, and it is not considered "high end" here, but you can still achieve an incredible recording out of it.

The issue here is that everyone here seems too worried what the others in here think about gear X, rather than take the knowledge that they can learn, to make an educated decision on thier own about the gear. When buying gear, I hear people on here say "I just bought piece X of gear, and now I came on here, and everyone hates it, so now I think it sucks, and I am now getting piece X, because so and so said it was better in this thread over here on GS.

If the gear works and achieves what you need it to do, who gives a rats rear end, what anyone thinks of it. I guarantee that someone who listens to your recording is not going to say "Wow I can really hear that Behringer mixer you used, it added a ton noise to your recording, that thing sucks". The only people that "might" tell you that would be a trained AE, and even then prolly not so much, but they might be able to tell if you used an 1176 or not.

P.S. I do have a Prism orpheus in the mastering suite at my pro facility. The LS56 is for my home studio, which was upgraded from a digi 003. I also bought a bunch of other gear with the money I did not spend on the orpheus.

Jim

It seems to me that some important useful tools are delicate while others are stronger. Probably each type has it's specific advantages and disadvantages.

[gl0ry]

Happened to find this thread while searching for some info on google.

I've been using a low end Behringer UCG102 to utilize my electric guitar and use virtual amp software to record. I haven't been satisfied with the quality of the recording (doesn't sound like there is much depth) and was looking to upgrade to a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 which I've heard is very high quality.

I was told by someone that the difference between the two wouldn't be very noticeable.. can anyone here confirm or deny that? I just can't see how a 30 dollar device could rival one that is 4-5 times the price. The reviews should speak for itself, but I just want a confirmation before I buy the product.

[jlipoth]

- been involved in many a x8500 purchase for live use....about every 5th bought sounded pretty off...I recorded a vocal shootout with an sm58 back in the day, and it was a slight mid eq adjustment away from being usable to paste from both recordings to make 1 vocal track

- used eurorack mixers for live use sometimes...they worked well enough, but they weren't so great for recording, same experience with rack comps and EQs. About half of these devices broke on me within 8 years from being hauled around all the time...

- I found the xenyx stuff completely unusable. pure mud...

- I still have the original digital mixer - it works great for live, I've had it since 2002, it's getting a little rough around the edges these days...

- I have a couple Behri DI's...for a low end DI they kill the ART DIs

- I had a bunch of different model headphones they all broke in short order...never again

- I used a v-amp for a while, it was sub-par compared to my line6 but I made it work..

- I've had a B2pro mic since 2002. This mic is surprisingly good. I took it apart and compared pictures of the guts....it's actually a version of the NT2s which is an upgraded circuit of the original Rode NT2
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ilaqxvrt4s...20B2%20Pro.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lx3oemmprj...%20Pro%202.JPG

All in all not great stuff, but the odd thing is pretty decent....

[Temple of Light]

I have a Eurorack MX2642A {circa 1998} that still works fine.
{now sold, the weakest noisiest link in my signal chain}
I also have and use a pair of B1 Pro mics, excellent LDC's,
and a REV24/96 which is the tits machine in front
of my beats and such, a great unit, now that I have it working and setup correctly. Sounds fanastic when followed by compression...
Ditto a pair of Eurodesk MX9000's.
I also have the RX1202FX {circa 2009ish} and the difference in terms of sound quality between the two vintages is night and day. The newer vintages have a whole new generation of high performance analog/mixed signal and discreet components simply not economically available back in the day. These contribute significant improvements in gain, dynamic range and sig. to noise ratios as well as massively improved overall clarity and sound quality. This is not to say I would replace my MX9000's with the newest version of the same design {SX4882} which is basically the same design with an integrated power supply, newer
{british EQ circuits} and the latest generation of components. Behringer are consistent in their non-disclosure and deceptive marketing strategies. They consistently release misleading, incomplete and irrelevant specs and routinely omit critical spec's regarding their products. Still, I'm grateful for the oppurtunity to learn my craft on this equipment, and more importantly the wisdom to know the difference of what better pro level gear really is. YM, as always, MV.
My kingdom for a pair of Mackie Onyx 24.4.2's and a
Onyx 1640I w/Traction3.