Getting great Tom Sounds on the cheap

[John Suitcase]

A lot of the bands I record are small local acts with equipment to match. I'm wondering what other engineers do to get the best tom sound out of poorly tuned or cheap toms. Keep in mind that I don't have thousands of dollars worth of outboard or mics, or a lot of time to mess with things. So far, I've had good luck with MoonGel on the toms near where I place my mics, or occasionally using gaffer's tape in a similar fashion. It seems that the thing that destroys most tom sounds is the warble and ring of poorly tuned (or untunable) toms. I also often gate the toms, if I find I need an extreme eq setting to get the attack to come through.

And no, triggers aren't an option...

Thoughts, ideas? Keep in mind that we're looking for bang for the buck, things that'll get me 80% of the way to a great tom sound, 90% of the time.

[kenm]

My buddy and I were playing with Drumagog last night, and the tom samples were really good. You can also blend them with the mic'd track if you don't want to totally replace them.

Ken

[DrDeltaM]

Tune up the bottom skin more.

Use MD421.

Done.

[warhead]

Originally Posted by John Suitcase

Thoughts, ideas? Keep in mind that we're looking for bang for the buck, things that'll get me 80% of the way to a great tom sound, 90% of the time.

The sound of the tom itself will get you 90% of the way, truth be known. You are saying people are showing up with shit sounding toms, then they will sound shit unless you replace the sounds using software or triggers. No mic will cure it, although heavy EQ at times can help "hide" some bad tone issues with toms but the end result might be pretty paper-y sounding.

Maybe buy some toms to keep around?

Drumagog rocks.

War

[eso]

For a cheap aid in tuning drums, I would recommend getting a drum dial like the Tama Tension Watch. It enables you to measure the tension at each lug so that you can tune the top and bottom skins more consistently with speed.

You'll still need to use your ears of course, but it can help to get in the vicinity of a good sound quickly, and then you tweak to taste. If you don't yet have much experience with tuning toms then I would also recommend getting a lesson from a pro session drummer on tuning techniques and tips, or at least read some articles in drummer magazines and on the net.

Mics and mic techniques will enable you to capture the sound you want, but they can't compensate for poorly tuned drums.

Knowledge and/or experience will get you further than equipment alone.

[davenutz]

tuning and the player are the two most important factors when getting drums sounds.

the room and mic positions are 3&4, though not always in that order.

a drummer who wails on cymbals and snare drum, but hits toms like a pansy and barely taps the kick drum pedal will produce an unbalanced sound and there is little you can do to help it.

your best bet is trying to coach the drummer into really laying into the toms, even if it means changing the angle or position.
Tuning is important...but if you dont know what you are doing, you are better off leaving it to someone who does.

If you have the option, i would recomend picking up a good quality kit to become your "house drumset." Something made from maple or birch by a reputable mfg, and in decent shape.(used is ok, but have a drummer friend along to help check things like bearing edges, which are the most important element of a drum...a dented bearing edge can cause the most godawful buzzing that you will not be able to remove with any amount of eq or tuning.)

anyway, now that i have completely gone off topic, i have always gotten good results using what everyone else has been using on toms for the last 30 years: sm57's and MD421s'
Play with the tuning...sometimes the mic captures drum sounds that you might not hear...because its unlikely that you are going to listen to a drummer playing a tom from 4" off the head.

[LightningBefore]

Definatley 421s on tuned toms. . . tune the top and bottom and some nice, new clear heads and you are in the buisness!

I know that probably doesn't help much, Im sorry.

[John Suitcase]

I realize you can't get s*** out of a wooden horse, but I was just curious about muting,tuning and ideas. I've used some tape and gel on toms (and snare) before, and I'm sure we've all seen the old studio pics of drums with tape all over the toms and cymbals, towels across the snare and so on.

I just like to have a nice deep repertoire to go to. I often am dealing with young bands, on a small budget, and I try to make the best of the situation.

I recorded a drummer once with bottom heads off of the toms, from the inside. Sounded nice and round, like the old motown type stuff. And taping and gel can get toms sounding 100% better, very quickly.

I am resistant to drumagog, etc., simply because I feel like you lose something with samples and triggers. It's like the Line 6 stuff, it just doesn't sound 'right' to me.

Of course, it's a fine line, I realize I'm working in the digital domain, and those reverbs and compressor plug-ins are just as bad...

[cdog]

I think having the drummer show up the day before the recording to replace all the heads on his/her drums, tune them and jam on them for a couple of hours, while you mess with mics and positioning, is one of the keys to getting good drum sounds.

Also, the tom sound doesn't always have to come from tom mics, sometimes a M/S pair or mono room mic compressed a little can add a lot of body and fullness to the kit, blended in with the close mics.

Also, a little gaffer tape and folded up paper towel pieces can really give you a lot of control over the decay time and ring timbre of the toms (and snare).

Likewise for the kick drum, sometimes you need a pillow or folded blanket to tighten it up.

Also, hitting the toms with some 2B nylon tip sticks and brute force helps. A LOT.

[DHD]

Really though you need to learn to tune them yourself. Experience of tuning will let you know what can be done with just a tuning key. All this other stuff like moon gel and gaffa should come after. With a bit of effort on your part in practicing tuning drums you will soon know the messures you'll have to stoop to with a cheap ar$e band that's too stingy to coff up for new heads etc.

The way I learned to tune drums was from a mixture of drum tuning workshops, the Bob Gatzen DVD "Drum Tuning Sound and Design Simplified", and practice! There's nothing like being put on the spot by my own band (I was playing bass for them too!) at a pro studio where time is money baby! to get you focused and doin it!

I'm not against coated tom batter heads for a nice way to cut down on the sustain such as coated Evans G2's or coated Remo Ambassadors. And when I'm drumming or for when someone else is using my cymbals I say no to plastic tipped drumsticks!

Another good way to control tom sustain is to place the toms on the tom arm at the point where there is the least sustain.

You should use fader moves ie automation to create rides on tom fills that sound uneven! Or at least it's a good idea to IMO. and don't gate either, edit ITB.

Peace,
DHD

[copperx]

Originally Posted by DHD

And when I'm drumming or for when someone else is using my cymbals I say no to plastic tipped drumsticks!

what's the reasoning behing that?

[NateSmith]

Originally Posted by copperx

what's the reasoning behing that?

As a drummer, I can give you a couple of good answers.
1. Nylon tips can leave markings on the cymbals.
2. Nylon tips often fall off the sticks after substantial use and many times, without knowing it, the drummer will give a few good hits to the heads with the now sharp, tipless stick and gouge if not fully penetrate the head/heads.
3. IMHO, Nylon tips give an overly-metallic sound to alot of cymbals as apposed to a warmer ping (especially on the ride) one gets with wood-tip sticks.

My 2 cents from a drummer who would choose wood tips over nylon any day.

[John Suitcase]

Agreed on the plastic tips. I occassionally doa session where the drummer insists on using the nylon tips, and inevitably during mixdown they ask "what's that like crackle sound?" and it's always the tips hitting the cymbals. Sounds a lot like digital distortion...

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by John Suitcase

I am resistant to drumagog, etc., simply because I feel like you lose something with samples and triggers. It's like the Line 6 stuff, it just doesn't sound 'right' to me.

Of course, it's a fine line, I realize I'm working in the digital domain, and those reverbs and compressor plug-ins are just as bad...

I'm not sure what you would lose by using Drumagog to replace a really bad sounding tom. I think I generally do a pretty good job of capturing nice tom sounds. However, most of the tom samples in Drumagog are better sounding than the majority of kits I've had the privelege of recording. It's just another tool to get you a quality result. And using a real recording of a real drum to replace a bad sounding drum is hardly the same as using a POD.

If you record a tom track and then edit it or gate it so that you get rid of all the bleed, what are you left with? Effectively it's a track full of tom samples.

Brad

[DHD]

Hi copperx,

Basically if a drummer is going to play my cymbals I have to know how he hits a cymbal, and if they are being attacked by a lunatic with plastic tipped sticks then I don't risk it! What if the bead cracks open a bit and he's playing the edges of the cymbals-DANGER OF CHIPPING OR CRACKING-

I think if a drummer goes to plastic tips then they don't know how to pick the right bead shape to get the effect they want. Also I hate the sound they produce off of cymbals and toms. Too much transient and hard clank. Anything 5A and above with a plastic bead tip is a no no. If a jazzer came in and had 7A's with plastic tips then I'd ask why not wood tip with a small ball end? But in that scenario I would expect that they had their own cymbals anyway.

NateSmith and John Suitcase are bang on the money with what they've said. Why do you think MWagener uses a Royer SF12 as an overhead mic?? Could it be to tame the crashes of heavy hitting drummers... Partly.

I matched my whole cymbal set by ear. All the fundamental tones and most of the harmonics are enharmonic ie no mad oscilations between them and they all sound exactly as I want them to. Musical and yet able to penetrate rock guitars and yet can accompany acoustic music too.

Peace,
DHD

[copperx]

Nate, DHD, thank you for the clarification.

Hmm ... talking about hard-hitters, does anybody have a favourite
OH mic for miking drummers that SMASH cymbals?

[hourglass]

Hey suitcase,

If you're resistant to the idea of replacing drum sounds then the best option I can come up with is to get a decent house kit and keep it properly maintained.

Two things are going to happen when you do this:

1. The drum setup is going to take far less time.
2. You're going to get repeat customers because they're much happier with the final result.


Somebody posted about taking the time to learn how to tune drums properly - and that's a fine suggestion when you're faced with a good, or even decent, set of drums. However -- what do you do for the guy who brings in a set of 80's Pearl Export or Tama Swingstar drums that are made of compressed sawdust? How do you tune heads on a shell that has three or four dissonant resonanting frequencies? Never mind that the guy probably hasn't EVER changed the heads and the guy he bought them from probably didn't either. Unless one broke. And then it doesn't match the others.

Also when you have a studio kit, the drums are acclimated to your studio all day every day - there's no waiting for heads to settle after bringing them in from the drummer's van where they've been in the cold for the last two weeks of February.

I'm not a drummer, but I nearly cried the day I had to sell my studio kit. I found a hell of a deal on a Pearl Masters Studio BRX set. The birch shells do wonders for getting good tom sounds in the studio when you're shooting for quick, cheap & easy. The hardware was all top-notch and was indestructible no matter how hard it was getting pounded. I've got a buddy who bought Pearl's cheaper birch kit for his studio. The shells are the same as the BRX kit but the hardware isn't quite as nice. Still, it's a fantastic sounding kit. The $800 I paid for that kit came back to me time and again in customer satisfaction. (And the funny thing is -- I sold a set of Pearl Exports for $750 to finance that purchase. Sure, there were more Export shells (two kicks, six toms...) in all kinds of sizes, but as Dennis Miller once said -- Two of shit is still shit.)


Now I know what you're going to say -- What happens when some guy comes in who just absolutely has to play on his kit cuz it's the bomb, duct tape and all?

Easy. You play him the drum tracks from something you recorded with some band's shitty drums and then something with your house kit. Or you can tell him it simply costs more to record his drums. Explain that it's got nothing to do with the rate - just let him know that the setup and mixing times are going to be severely inflated when dealing with substandard equipment.

Now... don't get me started on these idiots with their giant rock-concert cymbals... (hint: keep a pair of THIN hi-hats in the closet. You're going to need them...)

ryan

[nathanvacha]

Originally Posted by John Suitcase

I recorded a drummer once with bottom heads off of the toms, from the inside. Sounded nice and round, like the old motown type stuff. And taping and gel can get toms sounding 100% better, very quickly...

That gives me an idea. Has anyone ever tried the 'motown kick' technique (ribbon mic sideways inside the shell) on toms instead of inside the kick? Resonant head off and stuff the mic in w/ null pointing at top head and missing bottom head?

[drummin4christ]

Originally Posted by NateSmith

As a drummer, I can give you a couple of good answers.
1. Nylon tips can leave markings on the cymbals.
2. Nylon tips often fall off the sticks after substantial use and many times, without knowing it, the drummer will give a few good hits to the heads with the now sharp, tipless stick and gouge if not fully penetrate the head/heads.
3. IMHO, Nylon tips give an overly-metallic sound to alot of cymbals as apposed to a warmer ping (especially on the ride) one gets with wood-tip sticks.

My 2 cents from a drummer who would choose wood tips over nylon any day.

I been playing for many years and have always used nylon tiped sticks. I don't care about marking my cybals up because they were meant to be played. I rarley, if ever have a tip break off and I've never gouged or penetrated a head.
I can understand your third point because you like the sound of wood verses nylon, but that is your opinion and what better place to let it be know than here.

[drummin4christ]

Originally Posted by DHD

I'm not against coated tom batter heads for a nice way to cut down on the sustain such as coated Evans G2's or coated Remo Ambassadors.

Peace,
DHD

I think it's funny you qouted to heads that are completey different. The G2's to me have little to no sustain because they are a two ply thick drum head. The Ambasador is one of the thinest heads (one ply) made and will sustain for days, no matter whether it's coated or not. I personaly love the sound of the attack from a coated head. I guess to each his own. That's why I love recording!!!!!

[slaves666]

Drumagog is the way....I have 100's of samples that almost always beats the recorded toms, even through a killer pre or board and mic. I guess if I was recording Kenny Aranoff I wouldn't have to, but most drummers don't hit hard enough or consistently.

[DHD]

Originally Posted by drummin4christ

I think it's funny you qouted to heads that are completey different. The G2's to me have little to no sustain because they are a two ply thick drum head. The Ambasador is one of the thinest heads (one ply) made and will sustain for days, no matter whether it's coated or not. I personaly love the sound of the attack from a coated head. I guess to each his own. That's why I love recording!!!!!

Hi drummin4christ,

Should have said about the differences with those heads ie g2 and ambassadors. If I want a single ply head then it's coated ambassadors. If I want a more rockin thicker sound with less sustain the I go double ply with the coated G2's. What I was implying though was that coated heads have less sustain than clears and not that Ambassadors and G2's are the Remo and Evans equivalent of each other.

I still do not like plastic tips. They sound too harsh and the transient to bombastic and fast for the cymbal. And on clear heads they bring out the plasticy-ness in the sound.

Now with a drummer who is all muscles and no technique hitting hard but inconsistantly and maybe even hitting cymbals square on without playing the sweet spot you will end up with poo drums!

With a medium hitter with some wrist and whipping motion hitting all the sweetspots on the cymbals correctly, even then I prefere WOODEN TIPPED STICKS!

It's like what John Suitcase said in his post about the plastic tips giving off a sound like digital distortion. On the wrong cymbals this is really brought out.

copperx to make the best of a bad situation ie drummers basshing the cymbals I'd recommend 2 things:

1- a set of 13inch Paiste Dark hats.

2- Royer SF12 stereo ribbon as the overhead mic. (this sound great on bashers and non bashers alike!)

Stay sexy people!
Peace,
DHD

[bjornson]

Originally Posted by cdog

Also, hitting the toms with some 2B nylon tip sticks and brute force helps. A LOT.

Nylon tip sticks help me to CRINGE

[Slipperman]

Been playing Regal 2B nylon tip, and nothing else, since they were invented.

Love 'em.

Wood tips sound, and more importantly, feel, like dust to me as a player.

Soggy.

Go figure.

I also treat cymbals as 'tragically expensive but unavoidably expendable' commodities.

Kinda like the way I feel about Health Insurance premiums.

I don't strike them with the bead like your supposed to all that much.

I basically just beat them into submission with the stick shoulder and vacuume up the blood and debris with the shopvac. HOHOHO.

Anyhoo.

I'm with the guy who says ya gotta learn how to tune drums.

I think it's a HUGE undertaking to truly get yer noggin wrapped around if you deal with many different kits.

I do quite a few every year in my place, and when it is my chore... I try to make sure that the drummers who seem interested in the process(and even the ones who don't), get a running(if cursory) explanation of what I'm doing and why. Much more importantly... I try to make sure the engineering staff here gets the hang of how to do it well with some degree of repeatability and expediency.

It's part of the AE job as far as I'm concerned.

Anything on the x-y axis(time vs. pitch).

Sometimes circumstances dictate that there is very little you can do to CONTROL it... But you sure as heck better KNOW what is going down.... WHEN it is going down. Otherwise... WHOSE STEERING? The passengers?

Very bad idea.

Those freaks will putcha right on the friggin' rocks as often as not.

In any event.

Drums are the foundation the whole she-bang revolves around on many records.

Don't get it squared away somewhat on input... and yer flogging a beached manatee for the remainder of the festivities.

I'll add this:

Most rock drummers have absolutely NO CLUE how to tune anything but their snare drum... If that... and they 'tune' more by bounce response and impact perception than any of the standard "drum doctor" tuning aproaches.

But his wishes, and certainly his "player surface adjustment" instincts should not be discounted.

One of the reasons being:

You can sit a drummer on the(subjectively speaking) "best tuned kit in the world"... and if he can't, for WHATEVER REASON, connect with it as well as he could with his 'shot in the dark' arrangement... you just did him a disservice... at least in the short run.

This is because a command performance eclipses a stellar recording 100 times out of 100.

Ohh God...

I could go on forever on the subject. I really could. So I won't.

I'll just say this...

If I ever embark on "Slipperman's Drums from Hell"... it's gonna make that "Distorted Guitar" thingie look like a Chinese fortune cookie message.

Best regards,

Slippy

[copperx]

Originally Posted by slipperman

If I ever embark on "Slipperman's Drums from Hell"... it's gonna make that "Distorted Guitar" thingie look like a Chinese fortune cookie message.

Pleasee pleaseee do! Hey, it must be hell writing that stuff if you dislike
writing as much as I do. How can we ease the pain?