Question about overhead placement

slowdive · 26th January 2006

I did use the search function, but I'm still not sure...so here goes

I'm recording my own band's demo in my studio. My drummer only uses a bass drum and snare drum, no toms. Cymbals are just the basic ride, hi-hats and crash. My mics are

441, 421, Rode NTK x2, AT4047, SM57, SM7, RE20, Beta 58A

I have been using the RE20 on kick, and the 441 & 57 on snare, and NTKs as overheads. But I just can't seem to get a good overhead sound.

My real question is, with this smaller drumkit configuration, should I even bother with a spaced pair? Or should I try some other placements?

The music is slow indie rock. The room is treated and sounds pretty good. Ceilings are low though, just under 8'.

Any advice would be great

rainsinvelvet · 26th January 2006

Well, NTk's are pretty bright mics, and with an 8ft ceiling that might contibute to the problem. I would try something like the 4047 as a mono overhead and try different pickup patterns with it (does it have multi patterns?)
Also I've had lots of luck using a 421 on snare insteed of sm57, but that might just be me. Then try the 414 somewhere out in the room to get some depth to everything. In the mix I might pan this guy slightly out to give some depth to everything. Usualy I go for a really live sound on this mic. Maybe even compress it a bit to get the room happening more..

Just a few thoughts..
ERic

slowdive · 26th January 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainsinvelvet

Well, NTk's are pretty bright mics, and with an 8ft ceiling that might contibute to the problem. I would try something like the 4047 as a mono overhead and try different pickup patterns with it (does it have multi patterns?)
Also I've had lots of luck using a 421 on snare insteed of sm57, but that might just be me. Then try the 414 somewhere out in the room to get some depth to everything. In the mix I might pan this guy slightly out to give some depth to everything. Usualy I go for a really live sound on this mic. Maybe even compress it a bit to get the room happening more..

Just a few thoughts..
ERic

some good ideas there. i don't actually have a 414 though.

i was thinking of either A) getting NOS tubes for the NTK mics, or B) getting another 4047, use them as overheads, and then use one NTK as a room mic.

but really i'm looking for mic placement ideas.

Bob Ross · 26th January 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowdive

My drummer only uses a bass drum and snare drum, no toms. Cymbals are just the basic ride, hi-hats and crash.

I *love* you! (Or at least I love your drummer's commendable restraint.)

Try the NTK's in an X/Y or ORTF array 4 to 6 feet in front of the drumkit, about 5 feet off the ground, angled slightly downward towards the snare/top of the kick.

r0ck1r0ck2 · 26th January 2006

try the sm7 on overheads...
dynamics love the overhead...

slowdive · 26th January 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Ross

I *love* you! (Or at least I love your drummer's commendable restraint.)

Try the NTK's in an X/Y or ORTF array 4 to 6 feet in front of the drumkit, about 5 feet off the ground, angled slightly downward towards the snare/top of the kick.

Yeah it's great to have a drummer with restraint. Another weird thing about his style is he pretty much plays only with rods, or with one 7A stick and one rod.

To his right side, where the floor tom would go, he puts his synth there. It's a cool setup.

I will try those ideas. Thank you!

r0ck1r0ck2 · 26th January 2006

1. when you say rod....?
like a shower curtain rod...
i'm confused

2.
damn that new burger king is a freak...disturbing...

midigod · 26th January 2006

You might also try putting absorption on the ceiling. That low of a ceiling is definitely hurting your overhead sound, but if you put fiberglas, rockwool, or commercial absorbers over the overheads, you get much closer to taking the ceiling away, which you will really like in your situation.

Generally, if you're not getting at least a decent sound in the overheads, the rest of the mics will all sound like crap.

Another trick that works well with certain sounds (and will probably work great for you with no toms) is to keep each of the overheads the same distance from the kick and snare as the other overhead. This keeps the kick and snare centered in the stereo image, and keeps the overheads exactly in phase, with respect to the kick and snare. To do it, place one overhead (exactly where is a matter of great debate, so just pick a damn place) , then get a long piece of string. Tape one end of the string to the kick head where the beater contacts it, stretch it ever-so-slightly taught and touch the tip of the overhead, in the center of the diaphragm. Now tape the other end to the snare's sweet spot.

Keeping your finger on the string exactly at the spot where the string touched the mic, you can swing the string in an arc, and place the other overhead anywhere in that arc. It's easier to actually do it than to explain it, so give it a shot.

Some people swear by this technique, others don't like it, but most people have never heard of it. But keep it in your bag of tricks. It's saved my ass a large number of times.

The X-Y and ORTF techniques are great too - all of these will give you radically different sounds than the traditional 10-and-2 method.

-Craig

sheltersoton · 26th January 2006

go crazy:

421 on kick
441 and sm7 on snare
RE20 as a mono overhead (ive seen led zep footage of this) have it directly above the kit pointing between kick and snare!
then about 2 or 3 meters in front of the kit set up the 4047 about a foot off the ground facing the kit and the ntk's facing away from each other at 90 degrees to the 4047 for a kind of m/s set up...

whats left..

57.... hmm spot mic the hi hats and use the 58 as a talk back.

who knows if it'll work!!!

slowdive · 26th January 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by r0ck1r0ck2

1. when you say rod....?
like a shower curtain rod...
i'm confused

2.
damn that new burger king is a freak...disturbing...

you know, rods. made by pro mark. they are basically a bunch of dowels taped together. do you know what i mean now?

slowdive · 26th January 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by midigod

You might also try putting absorption on the ceiling. That low of a ceiling is definitely hurting your overhead sound, but if you put fiberglas, rockwool, or commercial absorbers over the overheads, you get much closer to taking the ceiling away, which you will really like in your situation.

Craig,

Thanks alot for the suggestions. The room is completely filled with acoustic panels, but yeah...the ceiling is untreated. I was thinking of at least getting some auralex or something for right above the kit.

Thanks again

Joe

AdamJay · 26th January 2006

a kit that small should do well from the recorderman technique, midigod explained it above.

here's a little how to video dokushoka made:
http://www.sfrecording.com/videos/DrumRecording.mp4

i'd go with NTK's above.

add MD441 to inside kick
MD421 outside kick
make the 4047 a room mic.
you shouldnt need a snare mic with that technique

you may consider investing in a figure 8 mic for Mid-Side recording.
a ShinyBox 23C would do the job ($260). M/S with 4047, and throw a couple dynamics around the rest of the kit. That's the direction i'd take.

i did some M/S with Shinybox 23C + AT4041 2 days ago and was quite pleased with the sound

r0ck1r0ck2 · 26th January 2006

oh RODS...yess those tings..
what kind of synth is he playing?

slowdive · 26th January 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamJay

a kit that small should do well from the recorderman technique, midigod explained it above.

here's a little how to video dokushoka made:
http://www.sfrecording.com/videos/DrumRecording.mp4

GREAT VIDEO! and great ideas. thank you very much

oh, and r0ck1r0ck2, he's got a novation ks-4. he loves that thing.

sheltersoton · 26th January 2006

what an amazing vid!!!

going to try that!

paulneedles · 26th January 2006

you could try:
taking all the panels off the walls, and just put a few bass traps in the corners to soak up the boom. some things need a dry room - vocals especially, but drums are just the opposite - without the early reflections they really don't track as well. rip out your carpet if you have one - use bricks to keep the drums in place. put your panels on boards with holes for nails so you can put them back up easily for recording vocals etc.

that recorderman technique looks cool - i'm going to give it a try. here's my fave drum mic configuration, borrowed and adapted from a technique i read about in a Bruce Botnick interview in sound on sound - it should still be online:

single overhead above the drummer's head, i put it a bit over to the side of the floor tom, pointing between the toms, just to avoid getting too much hi-hat when i saturate the tape or use a compressor. take a bit of time to find the sweet spot where you get the most bass onto tape - this means that the drums and the reflections are in phase. i use either an ev635a omni dynamic if i want it smooth and roomy or my superlux cm8ha(cheap-ish chinese ld condensor) if i want it brighter and more focussed. try the K2(experiment with the pickup patterns) or the SM7 here to begin with. BB uses a sony c37.

phase-reversed mic under the snare maybe 3-9 inches away, depending on the sweet spot and my mood that day, pointing at the wires. i use a shure unidyne 545 in here, though anything with a tight pattern is worth a shot . it will need a bit of reverb to make it fit in with the overhead, although you may want to go crazy with the reverb for a more far-out effect! BB uses another c37

a third mic 6-12 inches in front of the kick. i use a t-bone ribbon here, you could probably use a large-diaphragm dynamic like the RE20 and get the same or better result. BB uses an Altec salt shaker

check the phasing on a single speaker and move the snare and kick mics until they don't take anything away from the overhead. try flipping phase on the kick mic - if it improves matters, keep it.

the way this works is that you get most of the picture from the overhead, but once you compress or saturate it to make it sound more exciting you'll lose a fair amount of kick and snare, so you bring them in to compensate. i go real hot to tape - if you're using digital, then use your compressors to get rid of transient peaks and push up the resonance. maybe try recording to a 4-track cassette machine(if you have one) first, without noise reduction, to get some saturation on the go. i sometimes pan the snare to 1 and the OH to 11, but more often than not it gets bounced to a single track, leaving me with mono drums, which i kind of like - all my favourite records have mono drums - in some ways you get more of a sense of space due to the extra realism and focus.

Almost Human · 26th January 2006

NTK's are cool mics. Nickelback have been using them as overheads for a while on their drum kit too.

In regards to that Recorderman technique, how far above the snare do you guys typicall place the first mic? Also, do you feel this method would prove useful for hard rock and/or metal?

AdamJay · 26th January 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Almost Human

NTK's are cool mics. Nickelback have been using them as overheads for a while on their drum kit too.

(makes mental note to stay away from NTK's)

slowdive · 26th January 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamJay

(makes mental note to stay away from NTK's)

so me & nickleback are both using NTKs on overheads? thank god that's where the similarity ends

maskedman72 · 26th January 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Almost Human

NTK's are cool mics. Nickelback have been using them as overheads for a while on their drum kit too.

In regards to that Recorderman technique, how far above the snare do you guys typicall place the first mic? Also, do you feel this method would prove useful for hard rock and/or metal?

2 drumsticks held end-to-end is the space for the mics.

it works for metal. even better for punk styles.

that vid rules!!

warhead · 26th January 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowdive

so me & nickleback are both using NTKs on overheads? thank god that's where the similarity ends

If there was a God, there'd be no Nickelback.

War

Almost Human · 26th January 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by maskedman72

2 drumsticks held end-to-end is the space for the mics.

it works for metal. even better for punk styles.

that vid rules!!

So, about 32-ish inches I guess...interesting...

Thanks! thumbsup

maskedman72 · 27th January 2006

some people go to 3 drumstick lengths if the drummer is crazy or has long arms.

vtone · 6th February 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Almost Human

So, about 32-ish inches I guess...interesting...

Thanks! thumbsup

you really should give the recorderman technique a try-- it's changed my approach to recording drums. instead of starting with kick and snare, toms, etc-- adding overheads last-- I start with overheads, get a full picture of the set, and enhance with close mics from there.

best of luck

ozraves · 6th February 2006

I got a great drum sound this weekend. We put a Blue Dragonfly over the snare. In on session it was about 50 inches and about 57 inches in the other session. We used two different drummers on two different sessions with the same band. We put an Oktava MK012 equidistant peaking over the top of the floor tom and aimed at the snare as well. Out front we put an EV RE20.

My future thought on this set up is to close mic the snare, which adds one to three more channels. My other future thought is to check my head on the distance off the snare of the mics over the kit. My future rule of thumb will be 48 inches as a starting point and then adjusting for the room.

Ol' Betsey · 6th February 2006

While I'm certainly no acoustician I would agree that you should treat the ceiling.

Maybe open up the room a little panel-wise, add some nice DIY broadband basstraps to the corners and then use some 'covered' 703 over the drums on the ceiling.

Don't waste your money on Aurelex.

703: Cheap and cheerful and effective.

Taming the reflections from the ceiling will really open up different O/H options too.

R.

slowdive · 6th February 2006

i did finally get a nice drum sound. i put the NTKs in recorderman. sounds very good. the ceiling is still untreated, but there are plenty of GIK panels so the room sound is definitely decent. i used the RE20 close in the soundhole of the kick, and placed the 57 close on the snare. truthfully, i don't need a close snare mic, but i'm keeping it WAY low in the mix, and adding reverb to it, so i can dial in a little ambience that way.

overall, it worked out great. thanks to all who gave suggestions.

Jules · 7th February 2006

You might try this one time.

don't use a traditional "overhead" config.. instead, use your close mic's as usual.. but try pointing the 'best' condenser pair mic's (in hyper cardioid if you have the option) at side walls, facing AWAY from the kit - about 6 inches from the walls (try to find a shiny surface to point at - roughly cymbal height) The idea is to pick up only reflected sound off the wall and to reject as much direct kit sound as possible.

EQ out any unattractive 'boxy / 'honk'' & compress to taste

Use this as 'stereo room' tracks..

This reflected sound is called the "boundary effect" (I think) and PZM mic's are based on it. I find this technique produces a great cymbal sound.. (Especially when the mic's are pointed at brick / stone.)

absrec · 7th February 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowdive

Ceilings are low though, just under 8'.

Any advice would be great

One more vote for treating the ceiling. I just put 703 on my ceiling and the top 16" of the walls. (19" if you want to count the 2x2s) This made a drastic difference in not just my overhead sound, but the overall sound of my room.

I have found that overheads are crucial not only to the sound of the drums but to the entire mix. I used to wonder why my mixes sounded muddy. Half the time it was the overheads honking away in the mids and low mids.

kalamazoo · 10th February 2006

great thread.

i've never thought about making the oh's the primary focus and building from there.

i usually use a 57 on snare bottom and another one on the top head or sometimes the shell. if i make the oh's primary focus the snare and bass can i get by without the top/shell 57? or, if i were to place the first oh somewhat over the hats can i get by without a hat mic?

after these two oh's what mic's are most important, in order?

26th January 2006	#1
slowdive Gear nut Joined: Sep 2005 Location: NJ Posts: 91 Thread Starter	Question about overhead placement I did use the search function, but I'm still not sure...so here goes I'm recording my own band's demo in my studio. My drummer only uses a bass drum and snare drum, no toms. Cymbals are just the basic ride, hi-hats and crash. My mics are 441, 421, Rode NTK x2, AT4047, SM57, SM7, RE20, Beta 58A I have been using the RE20 on kick, and the 441 & 57 on snare, and NTKs as overheads. But I just can't seem to get a good overhead sound. My real question is, with this smaller drumkit configuration, should I even bother with a spaced pair? Or should I try some other placements? The music is slow indie rock. The room is treated and sounds pretty good. Ceilings are low though, just under 8'. Any advice would be great

6th February 2006	#26
Ol' Betsey Lives for gear Joined: Jun 2002 Location: London Posts: 2,035 1 Review written	While I'm certainly no acoustician I would agree that you should treat the ceiling. Maybe open up the room a little panel-wise, add some nice DIY broadband basstraps to the corners and then use some 'covered' 703 over the drums on the ceiling. Don't waste your money on Aurelex. 703: Cheap and cheerful and effective. Taming the reflections from the ceiling will really open up different O/H options too. R. __________________ The Speaker Snuggy is specifically designed to compensate for the additive effect of using plugins which literally remove the blanket from your speakers. These plugins can sound good when solo'd, but when used across dozens of tracks they can leave your speakers sounding cold and insecure. (Casey / Bricasti) When I haven't any blue I use red. (Pablo Picasso) Ol' Betsey Satan - The Original Flower Shop 8 track - "She fought long and she fought hard..."

7th February 2006	#28
Jules Gearslutz.com admin Joined: Apr 2002 Location: A Yank in London, UK Posts: 17,806 1 Review written	You might try this one time. don't use a traditional "overhead" config.. instead, use your close mic's as usual.. but try pointing the 'best' condenser pair mic's (in hyper cardioid if you have the option) at side walls, facing AWAY from the kit - about 6 inches from the walls (try to find a shiny surface to point at - roughly cymbal height) The idea is to pick up only reflected sound off the wall and to reject as much direct kit sound as possible. EQ out any unattractive 'boxy / 'honk'' & compress to taste Use this as 'stereo room' tracks.. This reflected sound is called the "boundary effect" (I think) and PZM mic's are based on it. I find this technique produces a great cymbal sound.. (Especially when the mic's are pointed at brick / stone.) __________________ Jules Add your reviews to the new reviews area! Gearslutz on Facebook Follow my GS picks on Twitter Last edited by Jules; 7th February 2006 at 11:35 AM..

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26th January 2006	#2
rainsinvelvet Lives for gear Joined: Sep 2003 Location: California Posts: 1,196 1 Review written	Well, NTk's are pretty bright mics, and with an 8ft ceiling that might contibute to the problem. I would try something like the 4047 as a mono overhead and try different pickup patterns with it (does it have multi patterns?) Also I've had lots of luck using a 421 on snare insteed of sm57, but that might just be me. Then try the 414 somewhere out in the room to get some depth to everything. In the mix I might pan this guy slightly out to give some depth to everything. Usualy I go for a really live sound on this mic. Maybe even compress it a bit to get the room happening more.. Just a few thoughts.. ERic

26th January 2006	#5
r0ck1r0ck2 Lives for gear Joined: Jul 2005 Location: Barcelona!! Posts: 1,618	try the sm7 on overheads... dynamics love the overhead...

26th January 2006	#8
midigod Gear maniac Joined: Oct 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 175	You might also try putting absorption on the ceiling. That low of a ceiling is definitely hurting your overhead sound, but if you put fiberglas, rockwool, or commercial absorbers over the overheads, you get much closer to taking the ceiling away, which you will really like in your situation. Generally, if you're not getting at least a decent sound in the overheads, the rest of the mics will all sound like crap. Another trick that works well with certain sounds (and will probably work great for you with no toms) is to keep each of the overheads the same distance from the kick and snare as the other overhead. This keeps the kick and snare centered in the stereo image, and keeps the overheads exactly in phase, with respect to the kick and snare. To do it, place one overhead (exactly where is a matter of great debate, so just pick a damn place) , then get a long piece of string. Tape one end of the string to the kick head where the beater contacts it, stretch it ever-so-slightly taught and touch the tip of the overhead, in the center of the diaphragm. Now tape the other end to the snare's sweet spot. Keeping your finger on the string exactly at the spot where the string touched the mic, you can swing the string in an arc, and place the other overhead anywhere in that arc. It's easier to actually do it than to explain it, so give it a shot. Some people swear by this technique, others don't like it, but most people have never heard of it. But keep it in your bag of tricks. It's saved my ass a large number of times. The X-Y and ORTF techniques are great too - all of these will give you radically different sounds than the traditional 10-and-2 method. -Craig

26th January 2006	#9
sheltersoton Gear addict Joined: Dec 2005 Location: Southampton Posts: 438	go crazy: 421 on kick 441 and sm7 on snare RE20 as a mono overhead (ive seen led zep footage of this) have it directly above the kit pointing between kick and snare! then about 2 or 3 meters in front of the kit set up the 4047 about a foot off the ground facing the kit and the ntk's facing away from each other at 90 degrees to the 4047 for a kind of m/s set up... whats left.. 57.... hmm spot mic the hi hats and use the 58 as a talk back. who knows if it'll work!!!

26th January 2006	#12
AdamJay Lives for gear Joined: Aug 2005 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 2,825	a kit that small should do well from the recorderman technique, midigod explained it above. here's a little how to video dokushoka made: http://www.sfrecording.com/videos/DrumRecording.mp4 i'd go with NTK's above. add MD441 to inside kick MD421 outside kick make the 4047 a room mic. you shouldnt need a snare mic with that technique you may consider investing in a figure 8 mic for Mid-Side recording. a ShinyBox 23C would do the job ($260). M/S with 4047, and throw a couple dynamics around the rest of the kit. That's the direction i'd take. i did some M/S with Shinybox 23C + AT4041 2 days ago and was quite pleased with the sound

26th January 2006	#16
paulneedles Gear maniac Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 175	you could try: taking all the panels off the walls, and just put a few bass traps in the corners to soak up the boom. some things need a dry room - vocals especially, but drums are just the opposite - without the early reflections they really don't track as well. rip out your carpet if you have one - use bricks to keep the drums in place. put your panels on boards with holes for nails so you can put them back up easily for recording vocals etc. that recorderman technique looks cool - i'm going to give it a try. here's my fave drum mic configuration, borrowed and adapted from a technique i read about in a Bruce Botnick interview in sound on sound - it should still be online: single overhead above the drummer's head, i put it a bit over to the side of the floor tom, pointing between the toms, just to avoid getting too much hi-hat when i saturate the tape or use a compressor. take a bit of time to find the sweet spot where you get the most bass onto tape - this means that the drums and the reflections are in phase. i use either an ev635a omni dynamic if i want it smooth and roomy or my superlux cm8ha(cheap-ish chinese ld condensor) if i want it brighter and more focussed. try the K2(experiment with the pickup patterns) or the SM7 here to begin with. BB uses a sony c37. phase-reversed mic under the snare maybe 3-9 inches away, depending on the sweet spot and my mood that day, pointing at the wires. i use a shure unidyne 545 in here, though anything with a tight pattern is worth a shot . it will need a bit of reverb to make it fit in with the overhead, although you may want to go crazy with the reverb for a more far-out effect! BB uses another c37 a third mic 6-12 inches in front of the kick. i use a t-bone ribbon here, you could probably use a large-diaphragm dynamic like the RE20 and get the same or better result. BB uses an Altec salt shaker check the phasing on a single speaker and move the snare and kick mics until they don't take anything away from the overhead. try flipping phase on the kick mic - if it improves matters, keep it. the way this works is that you get most of the picture from the overhead, but once you compress or saturate it to make it sound more exciting you'll lose a fair amount of kick and snare, so you bring them in to compensate. i go real hot to tape - if you're using digital, then use your compressors to get rid of transient peaks and push up the resonance. maybe try recording to a 4-track cassette machine(if you have one) first, without noise reduction, to get some saturation on the go. i sometimes pan the snare to 1 and the OH to 11, but more often than not it gets bounced to a single track, leaving me with mono drums, which i kind of like - all my favourite records have mono drums - in some ways you get more of a sense of space due to the extra realism and focus.

26th January 2006	#17
Almost Human Gear addict Joined: Jul 2005 Location: Germantown, MD Posts: 408	NTK's are cool mics. Nickelback have been using them as overheads for a while on their drum kit too. In regards to that Recorderman technique, how far above the snare do you guys typicall place the first mic? Also, do you feel this method would prove useful for hard rock and/or metal?

27th January 2006	#23
maskedman72 Lives for gear Joined: Apr 2004 Location: michigan Posts: 1,456	some people go to 3 drumstick lengths if the drummer is crazy or has long arms.

6th February 2006	#25
ozraves Lives for gear Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,124	I got a great drum sound this weekend. We put a Blue Dragonfly over the snare. In on session it was about 50 inches and about 57 inches in the other session. We used two different drummers on two different sessions with the same band. We put an Oktava MK012 equidistant peaking over the top of the floor tom and aimed at the snare as well. Out front we put an EV RE20. My future thought on this set up is to close mic the snare, which adds one to three more channels. My other future thought is to check my head on the distance off the snare of the mics over the kit. My future rule of thumb will be 48 inches as a starting point and then adjusting for the room.

10th February 2006	#30
kalamazoo Gear interested Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 6	great thread. i've never thought about making the oh's the primary focus and building from there. i usually use a 57 on snare bottom and another one on the top head or sometimes the shell. if i make the oh's primary focus the snare and bass can i get by without the top/shell 57? or, if i were to place the first oh somewhat over the hats can i get by without a hat mic? after these two oh's what mic's are most important, in order?