Help/Advice on New summing setup

[illacov]

Basics:

Cubase SX with EMU 0404 currently

Getting M Audio 1010(PCI) 10 mono analog outputs

Getting 4 or 5 FMR RNCs

Getting Behringer console with enough channels to handle the duty.
Im thinking i would send via the M Audio 1010 4 or 5 stereo groups out (group1 drums, group2 instruments, group 3 vox, group 4 back vox, group 5 bass?) I would run these stereo groups into the individual RNCs and then into the console
I plan to route the resulting stereo mix back into SX via the 0404, all real time.

________________________

This is the preliminary stab at it, Im sure you could offer a more expensive solution, btw fwiw the Behringer mixers albeit built cheaply can be pretty quiet if you get a "non defective one." So what could I do to improve this or should I try it out and then see what you say? A budget summing setup is the main idea, since I see so many that are still on the expensive side, however what could we come up with in regards to low end compressors or for that matter LOW END SUMMING?

I think the key part of this is whether or not I get good compressors and also if I put some nice preamps in the mix. Right now Im tryin to price out some decent stereo preamps, nice clean ones or if theres some color imparted it wont be the end of the world. Either way, right now the RNCs are 175 bucks a pop, and Im lost on what stereo preamp would be in the same price range and be good.

Ok but this is where the help is really needed.

Once i get a decent mix OTB, do i simply route this back into SX onto a blank track and mute the output to prevent a feed back loop? Would SX even allow me to do this? I dont know how many people who use Cubase SUM Out the Box, so I think this may a one of a kind post, in regards to analog summing, for that matter, have you noticed there's no explanations of how to do this? Try a google search and see what I mean or a gear slutz search.

Anyways thanks for any help you can give me

Thanks

[natpub]

The signal degradation resulting from going through the Berhinger will complete negate any imaging or fidelity gain you may have hoped to have from using a summing soultion as opposed to simply remaing in the box.

I also do not see what you are hoping to gain by having RNC compression on every output group that you expect to be superior to what you would otherwise do using quality plug-ins. I have an RNC and love it for tracking a little gain reduction on vox or leveling on bass. I may use it for one channel to tame something. I would not see any sense in making a per-channel console of RNC's to impart some kind of desired sonic signiture which the RNC does not posess.

It appears to me you are trying to duplicate something you see being done with very expensive equipment, by using cheaper units. IMHO, that will not work at all, not in any way. If you have limited resources, you are better off remaining in the box.

That is merely my opinion, but I have had numerous experiences spending what ended up being a lot of money trying to do something big with budget equipment, only to find at the end that I was no closer (in fact much further) from the professional sound that I wanted. The end result was that I had wasted a lot of money on something that I then had a hard time selling, except at a pretty big loss.

I realize this is the Low End Theory forum, but I believe there are much wiser strategies to spend less money and get better results than the plan you propose.

I will also add that extrernal summing in and of itself "may" add only a very small percentage of enhancement to a mix. It is one of those "final 1 percent" things that people will go for, and the units used are typically imparting a very subtle but expensive sound to the enhanced image and spread.

Using something like a Berhinger mixer to try and achieve this, instead of giving you that last 1 percent of greatness, would ruin the first 99 percent you had already gained.


Best Regards,

KT

[illacov]

Thats why I asked for a better recommendation for the console

We currently use a behringer as a monitoring solution, but in our current state of laziness we also have our vocals patched thru it going to the daw, but previously we did have it going direct into the computer, there's no discernible difference, however we do have the mike an NT1A going into a Rane MS1B preamp which goes out to a dbx 163x then into the behringer, which sends the mic channel out via a send to the EMU 0404s in. Maybe its the fact that we use decent stuff going into the console? Which is why the difference is not huge? between with console and without?

Obviously I hear where you're coming from with the quality plug ins, but i have ALOT of plug ins that are considered quality like the Waves Platinum collection, Timeworks Mastering Compressor, Golden Compressor, Golden peak pressor. PSP Vintage Warmer and a shitload of voxengo plugins, including voxformer, soniforme, polysquash, transmodder etc.

I have kind of grown out of alot of the plugins that people recommend and unless you're going to say something like the UAD1 or powercore is going to make the difference that almost a grand in quality gear, (minus the behringer!!) will not, I think you're better off replacing a gear slutz quest for gear with gear and not software. I have too many plug ins not to get better results...however this thinking is BULLSHIT. Until I got an outboard compressor inline on my vocal chain, I did not realize how shitty our vocals sounded with plug ins (voxformer, GCO) The comparison wasnt even worth the time!

My friend from the studio across town only uses plug ins and it took my tutelage at gearslutz for him to get the point with hardware versus plug ins

I've heard the RNC's sound pretty DAMN good on 2 buss mixes, I cant see why if I put them to use on a stereo group for drums or on a group for vocals as a sweetner that this should be a "bad" idea. Now if the console is going to destroy the resulting mix, then by all means please give me a heads up on a good one thats comparable in price range IE under 400 bucks.

So far Im not liking the summing box approach because it requires me to get a REALLY expensive card just to get the cheapest summing box, the Folcrom (which sounds pretty good!)

So obviously my concept is going to make thing difficult for some people to digest, however i would love to see how much the behringer with the RNC's and also the preamps would ruin the sound. Then again you may have a point since you've had the experience im still trying to gain.

Either way

Help us out here!

Illumination

[krs]

I do exactly what you're talking about, only with PTLE, an Onyx mixer and Apogee conversion. Do it man! Yes it is lower fidelity no question. It is also (for me) musically much better. I operate the console with the master fader at around -25 and make up that gain with the line amps in the Trak2 (solid preamp). This really helps to keep the noise floor down. You will learn a lot from making music this way - it's more fun too.

As for the mixer try an Onyx, A&H, or Soundcraft. (The Onyx gets overlooked much due to its predecessors). Get a quality stereo preamp to run your mix back through.

As for the 4 RNC's, well it seems a little over the top, and having some options is always good. Maybe one or 2, and a decent outboard reverb?

Have fun!

[illacov]

See this is what I want to happen!

I actually am getting a hardware reverb, maybe a used Lexicon?

So far the console is my weak link, because I havent found many that give me chills.
My reason being is this. I looked at the more expensive consoles and they were bland! I mean besides the fact that they promise better components and build quality, they are really basic sounding consoles. Now the onyx series is a whole different ballgame, I havent gotten my hands on one yet, however my thing is that if Im dropping some real cash on a console it should be WAY better than a behringer or an old mackie!

Understand?

As for the compressors, I really want to mix it up, so the RNCs are the foundation to this scheme of mine, I probably dont need four, I could use maybe even just 1 or 2 in conjunction with possessing some other flavours in audio.

Preamp wise I havent started looking quite just yet....

Heres a question -

Would running each stereo group into a preamp before compression improve the sound? Understand? Like using four stereo presonus pres before the RNC's or whatever compressors I wind up getting and then running the main outs from the console to another stereo pre back into the DAW.

Also, since the RNC's sound pretty damn good on mixdowns or the RNLAs hmm, I could also use this as a nice little mastering setup or post production setup too.

Suggestions???!!

Thanks for keeping this thread alive.

Peace
Illumination

BTW....I do primarily Hip Hop Music, so Im not familiar with how much hip hop or urban music is summed out of the box, however I love A Tribe Called Quest enough to know that analog on hip hop is sex lube for wedding night.

[krs]

Dude don't get your hopes to high re: analog sound. We're talking about budget gear....it should on the other hand help make more musical mixes.

The outputs of your DA are line level, so NO do not run through a preamp before the mixer. I usually input the DA to the insert on the Onyx to completely bypass the amps. (Sometimes not).

As for use of compression, I know nothing about the kind of music you do, or how you track it so I won't touch that one.

As for making good mixes on limited DA outputs, use your head. It will change from song to song. I personally have 6 awesome DA, and 8 shite DA, so I use them accordingly. Some mono, some stereo, depends. I run the Lexicon on the aux sends/returns of the Mackie so I can control the sends manually. You can also hit the Lexicon straight from the DA, automating your sends in the DAW. Lots of room for experimentation!

[illacov]

Here's the new list of equipment that IM gonna grab as of today at least

Soundcraft M4 499.00
Terratec Phase 28 Recording System 199.00
Terratec Phase 22 Recording System 99.00
Lexicon MPX 200 200.00
Symetrix 302 Dual Microphone Preamp 254.14


10 Outputs (5 Stereo Groups) from the computer for under 300 bucks, going into a very well reviewed and liked mixer. Good Lexicon unit and nice Burr Brown components in the Symetrix preamp to run after the main outs.
Ok so far so good, this is actually my 6th revision of my list of goodies, if you'll notice i didnt list any compressors this time around, however Im willing to hold off on using any outboard compressors for summing to see how far I can get without them since I have the good plug ins on the DAW.

Any more suggestions? Or comments?

Nice setup for under $1300 bucks, wow things are picking up around here!

Just in time for income tax time too!

Hopefully the thread goes a step further!

Anyone else care to share?

I guess the next step would be whats a good recommendation for an outboard stereo compressor for that final bump when I send the mix out for a second pass?

Maybe this is where that RNC or the RNLA would come into play?
Peace
Illumination

[David@MVS]

Originally Posted by illacov

Here's the new list of equipment that IM gonna grab as of today at least

Soundcraft M4 499.00
Terratec Phase 28 Recording System 199.00
Terratec Phase 22 Recording System 99.00
Lexicon MPX 200 200.00
Symetrix 302 Dual Microphone Preamp 254.14


10 Outputs (5 Stereo Groups) from the computer for under 300 bucks, going into a very well reviewed and liked mixer. Good Lexicon unit and nice Burr Brown components in the Symetrix preamp to run after the main outs.
Ok so far so good, this is actually my 6th revision of my list of goodies, if you'll notice i didnt list any compressors this time around, however Im willing to hold off on using any outboard compressors for summing to see how far I can get without them since I have the good plug ins on the DAW.

Any more suggestions? Or comments?

Nice setup for under $1300 bucks, wow things are picking up around here!

Just in time for income tax time too!

Hopefully the thread goes a step further!

Anyone else care to share?

I guess the next step would be whats a good recommendation for an outboard stereo compressor for that final bump when I send the mix out for a second pass?

Maybe this is where that RNC or the RNLA would come into play?
Peace
Illumination

Dont know how much is considered cheap but for $750 you can get the Folcrum summing unit and bypass the Behringer mixer to maintain your signal. You can route that back into the 1010 and make up any additional gain (if needed) back in the box.

If you want to do the OTB mixing thing then that is about the cheapest I know of without a further signal degradation.

Sounds like fun.

Regards,
David

[cdog]

Originally Posted by natpub

If you have limited resources, you are better off remaining in the box.

Best Regards,

KT

Even if you have unlimited resources, you're often better off staying ITB, and learning how TB works and getting friendly W/TB cause TB is your friend.

TB is not evil, I'm not sure who told you it was.

TB will not destroy the 'Shire.

Its clean, its all powerful, its all knowing and 100% recallable. It never needs to heat up and never needs a channel strip replaced.

TB is great. Long live TB.

Now go make some music.

[illacov]

The Folcrom if I follow Daves quote is 750.00 USD
combined with the Soundcard 199.00
Then the DB25 to 8 1/4 connectors 32.95
and the preamp Ill say the BlueTube Stereo 199.00

Its exactly 1180 for everything without shipping

However this is without any Lexicon or ability to mix within the summing setup I would have to do this from the DAW, however I have seen Bang do this sort of thing, but he also had that nice compressor after the preamp..

But at least at first glance it seems like the setup with the console is alot more flexible than the one without, in terms of routing issues, this is versus a setup that uses the console to sum it only costs (1248.14 vs 1180.00) 69 dollars more.

So where do people stand on this issue of cost versus flexibility? Are people thinking that the Folcrom would sound better than the Soundcraft M4??

Gimme some feedback, cuz I need that.

Peace
Illumination

[krs]

I don't understand the whole summing box thing. I mix OTB to get a more hands on feel on my mixes, because I don't have a control surface, and I prefer to throw my money at outboard rather than at computer peripherals.

If you go for the summing box, then you need a control surface, IMHO.

(F*ck it, spend your money on good outboard )

Kirk

[David@MVS]

Originally Posted by illacov

The Folcrom if I follow Daves quote is 750.00 USD
combined with the Soundcard 199.00
Then the DB25 to 8 1/4 connectors 32.95
and the preamp Ill say the BlueTube Stereo 199.00

Its exactly 1180 for everything without shipping

However this is without any Lexicon or ability to mix within the summing setup I would have to do this from the DAW, however I have seen Bang do this sort of thing, but he also had that nice compressor after the preamp..

But at least at first glance it seems like the setup with the console is alot more flexible than the one without, in terms of routing issues, this is versus a setup that uses the console to sum it only costs (1248.14 vs 1180.00) 69 dollars more.

So where do people stand on this issue of cost versus flexibility? Are people thinking that the Folcrom would sound better than the Soundcraft M4??

Gimme some feedback, cuz I need that.

Peace
Illumination

See that is the thing. If you go summing box, you still have to _mix_ ITB but at the sub-group level. AND if you are going to make up the gain with a pre, it should be better than a Blue Tube.

So you do have some difficult choices to make.

Speaking of which, only you can decide how to weigh flexibility vs. a slight deterioration in sound quality.

As for the sonic qualities of the Folcrum/Blue vs. the Soundcraft M4....I think that is a wash...and in that regard, I would go for the flexibilty of the M4.

Opportunity costs always suck.

David

[illacov]

The Terratec cards are cascadable, meaning that I could in theory by 3 more identical 8 output cards and have 32 channels! When you consider that this is an $800 purchase to be able to mix 32 channels outboard this is a blatant slap in the face to immensely expensive peripherals.

So far the Phase 28 received a damn good review in SOS magazine last, as did the steps right above it including the break out box versions of the PCI cards in the Phase series. That being said.

I could in light of the lightweight cost, buy another Phase 28 card for the time being and have 16 outputs to mix on a console. I believe that if I skip the M4 and go to an M8 or an M12, that this would be easily done, considering that I would still be mixing some sounds from the DAW as stems instead of individual tracks, but it would also give me the ability to mix single sounds and carve em up with whatever outboard gear I have access to.

SO NOW...where do I go? Considering that another Phase 28 is another $200.00 and the M8 is $140.00 more than the M4, you're basically talking another $340 for double the channels! Dammit the choices! The truly sad part is, this brings me a grand total of $1588.00 USD, which btw is under the cost of most high end summing solutions, but you certainly don't end up with this much eye candy or toys for that kind of money! I've gone from pondering a basic summing setup (with a cheapness) to being able to mix almost entirely OTB. At the very least, I could use my s/w plugs on the individual tracks but still send them out (if they are mono) to the mono ins on the M8 and then send whatever is being grouped to the stereo ins. I mean I could actually have 8 stereo groups and just pan the mono channels hard left and right, but thats a bridge I'll cross later. I mean if sending out the channels in stereo groups helps out in terms of dynamics etc...This is how the guys with the more expensive desks are doing it anyways....Im just wondering if Ive stumbled across some loophole in the space time continuum with this one. Yes a person would still have to buy plug ins, but there are PLENTY of free ones that handle the dutys for basic signal processing very well.
1600 dollars for a nice mixer, 16 outputs of good DA from the sound cards, a decent preamp and a nice lexicon reverb to replace the s/w verbs.
I could literally just mix damn near everything out of the box in the console (M8 16 channels), the only question now is how I would monitor the mix with 2 buss compression??? I guess I need to see if there are inserts on the main outs for this board or if I would have to get a secondary console to feed from the preamps outputs and route that to a stereo compressor (ANY SUGGESTIONS??With a Cheapness) so I could "mix into the 2 buss."


Now please do interject whether or not you think this is overkill. Should I go this far? Do you think that feeding the main outs->stereo preamp->mixer#2(IE soundcraft) would fcuk the sound up or add noise?
Wow Im beginning to feel my head spin on my shoulders.

Keep the info coming guys
Peace
Illumination

[krs]

Originally Posted by illacov

Do you think that feeding the main outs->stereo preamp->mixer#2(IE soundcraft) would fcuk the sound up or add noise?

??? ???

The DA are line outputs. What are you trying to do?

[illacov]

What I meant by "main outs" are the main outs from the console. Not the DAW.

In the last post, what I meant was should I connect the M8 or the M4 to another console so I could use some 2 buss compression and be able to monitor it, but what I didnt realize, due to shitty image quality and very hard to read PDFs is that the M series consoles have mix inserts, meaning that I could dial in some 2 buss compression pre fader and be able to monitor the compressed mix, so I wouldnt need a second mixer to hear 2 buss compression. However, I wont be able to hear what the mix sounds like through the preamp (Symantec).

krs how are you monitoring your mix after your preamp? You know after you have all your stuff all set in your onyx, obviously you hear your basic mix from your control room outs etc, but how are you hearing what your mix sounds like after you send it thru your trakker? (Are you using the trakker as an insert?) Do you just record it and hope its all right? You know and just see if you have good signal level in the DAW or are you splitting the output of the pre to another mixer (as well as to the DAW )for monitoring purposes so you can hear it post preamp or whatever?

To recap all this ...If I get 2 Phase 28 cards, this gives me 16 outputs, I can either buy a console with more channels (hence the M8) and be able to actually do much more concise mixing OTB, instead of just stems across the board or stay with the M4 and use 8 stereo groups(stems) on the M4 via using 2 of the stereo aux returns and 4 mono channels panned hard left and right, plus the original 4 stereo channels I mentioned earlier, making it a grand total of 16 channels.

I have now discovered that a person can patch in a mix insert (stereo) on the M-series mixers. However, seeing as how the idea is to turn down the console and have a stereo pre make up the gain (since it has more headroom), I'm kind of stuck on how I could integrate the preamp POST compression. Would that be wise? The other question still remains is would I need a second mixer to monitor how things are sounding after pre-amplification? Im guessing yes.

Hope this clears things up

Sorry for the confusion

Peace
Illumination

[Faderjockey]

Ok..Sorry if I missed stuff. I'm to tired to read every post.

I'd say...stay in the box learn to mix better that way...Work your way out of the box when you have more money..

You are going to spend a bunch of dough...and it's not going to give you this big pro recording sound...You have a better chance of getting in itb.

It's like you want to run a race...But your asking how big of a log should I tie to my leg first.

I use SX3 for mixing only...I run that into a Folcrom and amp that with a Chandler TG2. It does sound good...But I also have a Presonus M80 with Burr-Brown opamps in it...guess what..Not close to the TG2.. I even like my 1272 better..then the M80..But the 1272 is to dark and creamy most times..Next choice after TG2 is my Great River MP2..

But they sound like something..The Berhinger will not help things..I also use RNC's when I need to tame stuff..but mixing..I've found plug's that work better most of the time. The RNC is ok on the 2buss...Just ok.

I think if you get a better grip on th ITB mixing...Then when you add a really cool piece your going to make better use of it. IF you buy all this crap....Then your going to be learning what they all do best...and sort of running the wrong way while your trying to mix.

Guys like Mike Shipley are sticking ITB and using a Folcrom....Guess what! He could mix on anything he wanted to.. But I don't think he would be asking for Berhinger and RNC's.

[illacov]

This is why my other posts clarified things, I followed some advice and I got rid of the whole behringer rnc premise, instead I moved onto the Soundcraft M8 and 2 Phase 28 cards, a Lexicon MX 200 with a Symantec Preamp on the main outputs.

So I dont know if these are pieces of garbage but they definately sound alot better.

But that must be what you missed.

[natpub]

Originally Posted by cdog

Now go make some music.

way ahead of ya dog

[illacov]

Spirit Folio Sx 162.99
Terratec Phase 28 Recording System 199.00 X 2
Lexicon MPX 200 200.00
Symetrix 302 Dual Microphone Preamp 254.14

I lucked out and got the SX from Daddys with a warranty, its in good condition no noise on the pots and it sounds great! Im waiting for my cards by the end of the month.

Im still working on the lexicon and the pre, but thanks for the advise if anybody cares to mention anything you're more than welcome!

Peace
Illumination

[RoundBadge]

Take Cdogs advice

The mixer your talking about is a waste of money..
The Spirit Folio is especially a screaming piece of shit..
put the money towards good pre's,mic's,convertors
Youre WAAAY better off staying ITB..
but it sounds like your gonna do what your gonna do
good luck.

[warhead]

Originally Posted by krs

I do exactly what you're talking about, only with PTLE, an Onyx mixer and Apogee conversion. Do it man! Yes it is lower fidelity no question. It is also (for me) musically much better. I operate the console with the master fader at around -25 and make up that gain with the line amps in the Trak2 (solid preamp).

The Onyx has a pad on the main output that you might want to experiment with, and compare to lowering the fader.

War

[krs]

Thanks War! Didn't think of that, I will definitely try that.

One thing I'd like to know from the guys discouraging budget OTB...you are assuming that there is a control surface? Or are you saying you prefer ITB even if armed with just a mouse?

I can definitely say I'm way better with the mixer than with a mouse. It is slightly noisier, but it's so much more alive. I'll buy a Neotek when I've paid off this damn cello

[illacov]

There's always a few people that complain about every product because we are all entitled to our opinions, but I fail to realize how a person could say drop 2000 dollars on a AD/DA and then you WONT need a console for summing, the better DA all the more justifies using outboard summing because buying the converter alone says that things that are dedicated to specific tasks are always better than all in one packages. Yes the console does mix channels just like ITB would in terms of combining multiple channels into a stereo mix, but I think this is where the comparisons end.

Ive looked on many websites and the complaints I hear about this mixer is not the SOUND QUALITY, or ROI, but the fact that its not professional looking and or should be heavier and much more bulky in terms of build quality. This is going to sit on a desk and sum music man...not do live shows. It will mix channels from my daw and return them into the DAW if I so please, nothing more nothing less.

Screaming piece of shit is rather harsh for such a well reviewed product.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1996...itfoliosx.html

But since you put it out there, would you care to mention why this is a piece of crap?

I have read one post on another site where a guy claimed his behringer eurorack sounded better than this, which to me is pushin it but go figure.

Either way for the price and the way Daddys works, I got 30 days to return the piece if Im not satisfied.

I mean this is my first stab at it but I at least would like to hear where you gathered that opinion from.

Peace
Illumination

PS krs whats your take on the Spirit Folio SX???

[illacov]

krs, you said you send your mix back into the daw from the main outs of your onyx back into your trakker then into the A/D....so my next question is this.


I "usually" mix with some kind of 2 buss compression when Im ITB, however seeing as how Im going OTB then back into the DAW, obviously the 2 buss compression wouldnt be heard since Im sending the audio out before it hits the master bus.

Now I dont know if this is a DAW specific question since I dont use Pro Tools, I use Cubase SX. But, I dont want to have the mix sound good and balanced in the console, but then when it gets back into the DAW the 2 buss compression is triggered by too much bass or too much xyz or whatever, so


How are you able to apply compression or whatever ITB on your mix from the Onyx live and hear the effected results?

Am I confusing you? How about a graphic?


DAW -> Onyx -> Trakker -> DAW (again) this is what you said you do. Ok so how are you monitoring your mix?

Is it at the Onyx? or are you using something else? Like another D/A??

Im just confused as to how a person could mix into the 2 buss with this setup like you have if the 2 buss compression is ITB. Is it as simple as just recording your summed mix and then if it doesnt sound right with the compression on the 2 buss ITB, you just go back and mix again OTB until you lower the offending frequency or whatever?

I would hope its not this arcane. Anyone else care to help out? Have I explained myself enough?

I want to hear my mix post 2 buss compression ITB, but AFTER I have gone OTB to a console and back into the DAW..

im thinking that I have to use a second D/A and an extension or 2nd console, because if I want to hear things post 2 buss in Cubase SX, I wouldnt be able to route this back into the Soundcraft. Am I missing something?

im thinking that visually it would go like this

DAW D/A #1(Cubase SX) -> Soundcraft Folio SX -> DAW D/A #2(Cubase SX)-> Mixer #2 -> Monitoring

Is this correct?

Please give me some pointers guys, is it my choice of console? If I choose a different console, could I avoid using the 2nd D/A and 2nd console? or is this inevitable?

Im doing this as a possible way to avoid using hardware compression, but I really want to be able to slap some 2 buss compression across my mix with a hi pass around 100 - 150 hz in the sidechain. I already own GCO-1 which has a hi pass up to 100 hz and this does get some results but currently without a way to mix with this engaged using OTB using the console I chose, I would have to get some hardware, I've been looking at the RNLA or even the Black Lion 3630 mod, seeing as how I can get a used 3630 for 40 bucks and the mod is less than $200 I believe. Also I already have my hands on a Carvin 2029 (EQ) which I could use as a rough Hipass filter since I could just turn down the frequencies from 150 hz down to zilch and sidechain the compressor with the Carvin.

Anyways I need to get some answers on this so Ill shutup.

BTW I think this has been a great experiment so far with regards to low end summing. So far my solution has been cheaper than the Folcrom.

Used Console 163.00
Terratec Phase 28 199.00 X 2 (shipped) seen as low as 185.00 shipped on ebay
Cables (how soon we forget we need cables!) 48.00 for 2 X 8 TRS cable snake
As for the preamp maybe if we're goin for the cheapness, I might grab a used TPS or a TPS 2. However, Im not really excited about most low priced pres, unless I've gotten thumbs up from someone who's had years or pro or semi pro experience with one. I got the MS1B based on Roger Nichols recommendation and damn did he make the call of a century. The only thing I can see at this point is possibly grabbing 2 more and using them as a stereo preamp. Their lowest gain setting is 20 db of gain, so i could just back off the mixer outputs -20 and then run the output of the pre's into the DAW. However the MS1b uses xlr for outputs so I would have use an xlr to 1/4" cable, but Im wondering if this would step on the sound quality some. Ill have to wait and see.

Gimme some feedback!

Peace
Illumination

[Faderjockey]

Well......Here's my 2cents on that.

I said already I mix in SX3. Not sure what interface you are using. but here is what I do to monitor the 2buss.

I send my stuff out to the folcrom..Then to a TG2 for my makeup gain. Then sometimes into an EQ or comp.. then into ch's 1+2 of my converter.

Sometimes I my just use an URS EQ instead..Ok lets say I did that. I put the plugin on the input ch's of SX. You know the ch's to the right that you can hide. Then I create a Audio track. I tend to put that at the top of the session so it sits next to that input channel on the mixer window..follow me?

Then on the Audio track I will select a set of D/A converters i'm not using and on my patchbay I route that to my Central Station...(This is where I want to put a DAC-1 when I have the dough). So I'm monitoring whatever is on the 2buss (hardware or plugins).

I use a RME Digiface..So I can even use the Total Mix software to route things to two place's (Mult) if i want to.. like printing a Mix back to SX in the session Format and print one to my masterlink at 96K and monitor it all...If I wanted too. I mostly just go back to the DAW...The new hard drive I put in the Masterlink is to freakin' noisy.

Did you understand that? I'm still new to mixing in SX3.. but i'm figuring things out really fast and liking it allot. But i'm not giving up tracking in Pro tools..Best of both I think.

[DrDeltaM]

Seems a new low end summing box is out... No idea about price, but knowing SM Pro Audio, think CHEAP ;-)

http://www.smproaudio.com/PM8.htm

[illacov]

I dont know what the price on the PM8 is but like dude said it should be cheap, but you have to remember that the price Im paying is for the audio interface with 8 outputs, plus the other summing parts.

Anyways I figured out that the Folio SX has a sub buss that can be isolated from the master buss and that all the channels can be routed to this buss. The Sub Buss also has a stereo output, so I can send this out to the DAW and then effect it in Cubase SX and then route this back out on the last pair of outputs that I have on the 2nd Terratec Phase 28 to a stereo channel on the Folio SX. I would then be hearing the 2 buss compression from SX (but there would be some latency), but this would not really matter since this would only be to get my levels right. So I can eliminate the 2nd console scheme, unless I would get a second console if I want to mix totally outside the box or something like have 40 channels to mix with
I mean that would be possible by the end of this summer, but for now 16 channels is cool. However, you gotta admit that for 163 bucks the mixer is a steal. And Ive heard some mixes done with a Folio SX and they sounded pretty damn good.

All I gotta do now is pin down a good hardware compressor for 2 buss compression and a cheap eq to use as a hi pass on the side chain and things should be pretty good. I dont know maybe the RNC is still my best shot for under 200 bucks?

Maybe I can find one of those Yamahas that has that dbx sound to it or is that the DOD with the dbx vca in it? Whatever compressor I get has to have a sidechain, it s a must.

Anyways, I think Ive got my brain wrapped around this situation and my band mate thinks this is a great idea so he's behind me 110%.

All I gotta do now is wait for my stuff to come in and besides him you guys will be the first to hear some material!

Thanks,
PS any advice on the compressor for the 2 buss?

Peace
Illumination

[John Suitcase]

I use a Soundcraft folio F16(?) that I got for $150, used. It's a great sounding low-end board. I do some OTB summing through it, it sounds good, Soundcrafts seem to have a nice midrangey kind of sound.

If you're really curious about the whole ITB/OTB debate, you should check out the recent discussions with Paul Frindle. He points out that the reason OTB sounds better is that when you're summing ITB, you may not have enough headroom (the math is a little complicated), but that by making sure you have enough headroom (10db or so), you can get ITB mixes that sound very good.

The problem with OTB is that you're adding noise, you're adding a whole DA/AD step that's unnecessary, and you're adding several more opportunities for distortion.

In theory ITB should be superior for these reasons. In practice OTB tends to sound more musical, and less grainy (because of the summing issues.)

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthrea...t=paul+frindle

Have fun, use your ears!

[Faderjockey]

Originally Posted by John Suitcase

The problem with OTB is that you're adding noise, you're adding a whole DA/AD step that's unnecessary, and you're adding several more opportunities for distortion.

In theory ITB should be superior for these reasons. In practice OTB tends to sound more musical, and less grainy (because of the summing issues.)

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthrea...t=paul+frindle

Have fun, use your ears!

Yeah..Well to my ears I like hearing the distortion from some units...It's what my ears grew up with.

Now illacov, I could be wrong about this thought...But I feel like you have the wrong idea of summing. A million things can sum signals together...But there are things that are not going to help. I said already I'm using the Folcrom..along with many others and others are using D2b and bunch of other things...Some of the big boys are using SSL, Neve, API etc.

Now some of these guys like Mike Shipley will work at home on his Folcrom or will work in an SSL room. I feel like you are reading these threads and thinking that if you just get out of the box it's going to be this summing magic. hmm....It's not!

Now if you get a MixDream or whatever maybe it would help some...I know a Folcrom helped me some. but that was in Pro Tools..Since I've been mixing in SX3 I still use the Folcrom but I find myself using less outboard gear. Mostly because SX helps me get to what I want quicker. I have found myself taking plugs off putting hardware in and finding that the plug was working better. Not always...but more then when I was in PT's.

Part of what the consoles like SSL and Neve do when guys mix there DAW tracks is add noise..weight gerth that the little soundcraft will not do. I'm not saying the Folcrom is this awesome box...Really it's not doing much..My color comes from how I track what I do to the tracks in the mix and the fact that the TG2 is on the folcrom.

I think you could get great results ITB if you get good tracks during tracking...and good monitoring. Adding these little pieces just because..Yes they well sum or compress doesn't mean you are doing better. I said in another post...I'm sure you blew off...But it's like going backwards. I would stay ITB until you can afford to come out with better D/A or a better summing.

Also: if you read my other post about how to monitor SX it's much easier then what you just said.

[illacov]

I started out recording outside the box, before I got into using PC audio. I worked in some local studios for a few years as an intern, plus I would record local acts on the side, but this was on big consoles, with shitloads of outboard, tons of synths and samplers and a nice Akai reel to reel sitting prominently on the bookshelf going unused (dont ask). But I definately remember our mixes hittin alot harder and alot more goo to our mixdowns. This was not just because it was OTB, it was because of all the components working together before the audio got recorded. I even at one point brought my Fostex FD4 to the studio and even though it didnt sound AS good as the tape stuff, it still sounded pretty damn good and on top of that I used to use the console to get the levels good, not the Fostex.

So in conclusion, Im not blowing you off man, but it just always seems like people are telling me to stay ITB, wait til you get better converters for this or that. Look up the converters Im getting, Terratec Phase 28 PCI card. They're actually pretty damn good for the money and the fact that you get 8 outputs is a godsend. Its cascadable and of course your saying thats not a Lavry blue or whatever, but hold on. Theres a card you can buy for Terratec Phase cards, that allows wordclock from external sources. Why not just get a better clock? Ive been reading up and doing some homework on the whole issue with AD/DAs and adding a better clock can make a significant difference to your audio interface.

But either way, Ive been told numerous times from people on this board and others as well as collegues to leave this OTB stuff alone and yet they know people that have consoles (digital or analog) and their stuff is mixed with the desk, not the DAW and then these guys wonder why their stuff sounds different. I have real world experience with the how and whys of this stuff and from fledgling engineer to the gearslutz board in my 10 years of experience this is a no brainer. DO IT.

I spent the last 4 years trying to master the DAW format and listen to this. Why am I perfecting something thats not meant to be perfect? I need my desk back, I need my compressors and eqs. These goddamn plug ins are like teasers and the sad part is some of the cheapest compressors Ive screwed with in the real world are better than these expensive pieces of software we dare call software solutions. They hardly solve anything. And for the record, most of the places that do mastering and mixing, online or not, dont JUST use ITB.

But I really wish people would stop telling me I need to master ITB and my mixes will get better. Dude, I have no console, nor any more money to waste on shit I cant touch or feel.

Its like I have a pinto at the nascar qualifiers and I can't get a good qualifying lap and some guy keeps tellin me to master the pinto and then I will be a better driver when I get my racecar. THIS IS BULLSHIT!!!! I have to learn in a format thats similar, not dissimilar.

Either way. What Im doing costs less than getting a souped up UAD1, which is something I considered, but Im not dropping 800 bucks on something like a dsp farm right now. Either way, I appreciate the advice, but I think that maybe I should show you some of the stuff Ive done or whatever and then you tell me if its all about learning how to get ITB better or if going OTB is more realistic for what I want. Remember hip hop on consoles RULES. Im not sitting here running FL6 trying to get Nuendo results man.

Thanks for all your help! Please feel free to add on more insight though, dont mind me and my passions!

Peace
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