low end desk w. best eq

[soultrane]

looking for a 24x4 / 24x8 board w. solid eq to add midi mpc/synths w. daw stems.

don't really care about the pres....

is there a low cost board (analog or digital) that has eq that can compete w. the best of the plug-ins, (urs, sonalksis, uad, etc...?) which?

i'm thinking of trident 16-24, yamaha pm1000 / 2000 / 3000, neotek series 1, soundcraft ghost / 600, etc., ramsa da7, 02r, midas venice, mackie 8 buss / d8b, ($1-3k) etc class of boards...

have plug ins killed the eq sections of these desks?

[joeq]

I have a Soundtracs 'solo' series mixer.

I wish my plug-in EQs sounded as sweet as that.

I have used the Soundcraft Ghost and thought the EQs were so-so.

The EQs on the Mackies I do not like at all.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by soultrane

i'm thinking of trident 16-24, yamaha pm1000 / 2000 / 3000, neotek series 1, soundcraft ghost / 600, etc., ramsa da7, 02r, midas venice, mackie 8 buss / d8b, ($1-3k) etc class of boards...

have plug ins killed the eq sections of these desks?

Definitely stay away from the Mackie for the EQ's!

Really just depends on how much you want to spend. I had a Tascam M2600 (you could probably buy for under a grand) and the EQ's on it are really quite good for such a low cost board, might surprise you.

[cdog]

I think the Mackie Onyx is a good deal for $500.

Other than that.... Midas or Yamaha PM....

[soultrane]

good suggestions...

any more opinions?

[Bob Ross]

I would stay away from the Yamaha PM-series desks. Nothing wrong with them per se, but their EQs don't do much until you really wind them up (or down); there's no resolution near the detent of the boost/cut pots so subtle EQ moves are difficult to execute.

From your short list, I vote for Soundcraft.

[blakbeltjonez]

the Neotek series 1 is a great board, as long as it's in good condition - there were some with solid buss wire through all the modules that made maintenance a complete and utter pain in the ass, you'd need to watch out for one of those. great EQ, though - almost like an analog synth filter, in a way. really brutal HP filter if you wanted it to be, the high shelf is at 16k(!) but very nice for adding "air"... excellent single semi-parametric mid band on most Series I's, low freq centered at 150 Hz (peaking, not shelving) which is kinda high for dealing with sub bass issues but it kept you from doing dumb things to the low end of your mixes.

i loved mine before it had a few too many issues to keep using on a regular basis (mine had the non-modular buss wire affliction). ins, outs and inserts are all unbalanced just so you know..

the old Soundcrafts are excellent too, personally i think they mop the floor with the Ghost. far sturdier construction, my experience with the Ghost left me a little underwhelmed and i didn't care for the mish-mash of +4/-10 connections. Ghost sounded a little thin in comparison to my ears, almost too clean. the old Soundcraft 200/400/500/600/etc. have all balanced line inputs, outs and inserts though, so you'd have to come up with the extra expense of a bunch of DI's or line level converters to deal with unbalanced stuff like your MPC, outboard FX, etc. some of those Soundcrafts may have had internal jumpers/switches to change to unbalanced -10 operation on the inputs but i wouldn't count on it.

[soultrane]

bob ross; thanks for the response on the pm series... i guess people are praising them for their preamps? (pm2000's, the most coveted model, are close to $3k right now...) a neotek series I has been up on ebay for a while... (reserve is never met)... he must want $4k for the board, which seems a bit high... is the eq a 3 band? looks sweet.

blackbelt, thanks for the tip on the older soundcrafts... they are a good deal; 600's can be had for less than $1k... i would definitely want to get someting w. line level in, though.

the ghost is still pretty expensive and gets (charitably speaking) mixed reviews.

midas venice 16 channel is about $2500 bucks, and gets generally good reviews.

soundtracs solos are scarce right now, and m2600's, if they're good, are screaming deals at under $1k...

(mackie 8 buss (24 channel) can be had for $600, although some are still asking 1800 or 1900 for them!)

just wondering if i should hold thru the summer for the toft... i hate waiting for products, tho, having to pay a premium and still dealing w. missed release dates, etc...

any other sleepers? how about the allen and heath mixwizard?

[bunnerabb]

The best thing about Soundcraft desks, aside from direct outs, has always been their E.Q section, IMHO.

They're precise, yet musical.

[Snatchman]

The Eqs on the Tascam M-2600 mkII is decent for the money!

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by Snatchman

The Eqs on the Tascam M-2600 mkII is decent for the money!

They're more than decent for the money, they are really good. After the horrible M2500 (Yuk) Tascam went out of their way to build a board with a "European EQ sound". Don't know if they achieved that, whatever it is, but they did come up with great sounding eq's, best part of the board. Much better than the Soundcraft Spirit series they were competing with at the time.

[Snatchman]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

They're more than decent for the money, they are really good. After the horrible M2500 (Yuk) Tascam went out of their way to build a board with a "European EQ sound". Don't know if they achieved that, whatever it is, but they did come up with great sounding eq's, best part of the board. Much better than the Soundcraft Spirit series they were competing with at the time.

You're correct..!...

[soultrane]

what is the difference between the 2600 and the 2600 mk 2?

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by soultrane

what is the difference between the 2600 and the 2600 mk 2?

I had the 2600 mk2. I think it might be the meter bridge, which I had on mine.

Yup! Here is the scoop.

The TASCAM M-2600MKII Series was an upgrade of the M-2600 series, providing the additional ability to add a meter bridge and switchable -10dBv or +4 dBm signal levels for tape in and group outputs.-

Tascam Company History

[lukejs]

Go find a used Allen and Heath GS3000 recording console..... I love the eq´s on mine....

[soultrane]

another nice looking option would be the speck line mixer w. the 16 speck eq's... (can't remember the model numbers...) this would be an under $4k package and would allow me to have 4 stereo channels from the daw (which don't need eq), 8 mono channels from the mpc (w. eq) and 8 more stereo channels for other synths... plus, the mixer can rack and roll.... perfect...

i just have to get a look at these units and see if it would all work together w. existing hardware... anyone have any experience w. them?

(ps since i'm doing sample-based music, all i need from eq is the ability to cut low frequencies (30hz) from samples, boost a little in the 140's-200's sometimes, trim low mids, and occasionally add some hi mids or hi's... i find mackie 8 not able to hang for this purpose...)

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by soultrane

i find mackie 8 not able to hang for this purpose...)

Hahaha. That's an understatement.

[soultrane]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

Hahaha. That's an understatement.

i'm so ready to get rid of this thing... to get the most juice out of it, i've been

a) bypassing the line ins and using the tape ins from the rear pannel,

b) not touching the eq, not even the low cut button or the low band (60hz) is really any good...

c) when mixing down, i keep the board master volume very low, and make up the gain w. my averill 3405's...

doing this, i can actually get a better mix thru the desk than itb... probably because i don't know what i'm doing on the computer.

i've gotta believe the speck linemixer/eq16 will blow it away, even w.out hearing it.... my mpc 3000 sounds so heavy that it seems like a shame to have to put the tracks into the computer just to sort them out a bit. ditto my analog synths.

btw.... prices on that speck combo look to be around $2100 right now.

(wouldn't it be funny if, since 60% of drum and bass / techno / underground hip hop records from the '90's were mixed on a mackie or a behringer, the "sound" will be looked for by future generations who grew up on those records?)

[Snatchman]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

I had the 2600 mk2. I think it might be the meter bridge, which I had on mine.

Yup! Here is the scoop.




Tascam Company History

Yep...all of this is true, plus they 'stepped up " the power supply from +/- 18v to +/-20v and supposed to have taken alot of the design from the "high-end" console.. the M-5000 series ( about $80,000.00)! Actually, I think the M-2600 mkII was made to replace the... 3500/3700... series....

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by Snatchman

Yep...all of this is true, plus they 'stepped up " the power supply from +/- 18v to +/-20v and supposed to have taken alot of the design from the "high-end" console.. the M-5000 series ( about $80,000.00)! Actually, I think the M-2600 mkII was made to replace the... 3500/3700... series....

Where did the M700 fall in? Also looks like a pretty nice board.

[Snatchman]

Not really sure, but I think the 700s sorta held it's own and is in another area of the "high-end". The M-series was of a "new generation" per si'. Ergonomic design, different topology. I'm not a tech or anything but did research some of the Tascam designs before purchasing the M-2600mkII. The M 'series were the first to incorporate the newer center frequency points for Tascam. Normally the older consoles used the center frequencies of : 100 hz (Low)
1 khz (Mid)
10 khz ( Hi)

As opposed to the M'series: 80 hz ( Low)
1.5 khz (Mid) (?)
12 khz ( Hi)
I think this was implicated on the "mid-priced" consoles, not sure about the "hi-end" ones!

[love_tempo]

I have an old 200 series soundcraft delta. As said above, I think this mops the floor with the ghost and mackies I have tried. I got a 24 channel for $800. These desks are modular and well constructed so I think this is well underpriced. Especially considering the prices ghosts go for and they are vastly inferior.

BTW Jim Williams at Audio Upgrades does Delta upgrades but being in the UK, I haven't tried this route yet.

In software I am a big fan of Sonalksis and I don't think I could easily compare them. I do find myself using the soundcraft hardware EQ almost exclusively for mixing now. This could be because of the interface, sound or both. But I do know that I like the sound of the soundcraft EQ.

The other sleeper is the soundcraft solo and I would have happily gone with one of those.

[love_tempo]

Actually, I should mention that the major problem with the delta is it's size and weight. I think that is why the A&H g series, mackie's and ghosts fetch more money.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by love_tempo

I have an old 200 series soundcraft delta. As said above, I think this mops the floor with the ghost and mackies I have tried. I got a 24 channel for $800. These desks are modular and well constructed so I think this is well underpriced. Especially considering the prices ghosts go for and they are vastly inferior.

How do they "mop the floor" with the Ghost? What exactly is so inferior about the Ghost?

[aussie_techie]

soundcraft series 500 & 600 have nice british EQ, being an older console they have a bit more noise than something new but good sound none the less.
short of dumping 5 times the money into venice (which i wouldnt see to be worth while) i would go for a series 500
not sure which series blakbeltjonez has used but the 500 can take unbalanced inputs, no need for an extra DI

[soultrane]

Originally Posted by Bob Ross

I would stay away from the Yamaha PM-series desks. Nothing wrong with them per se, but their EQs don't do much until you really wind them up (or down); there's no resolution near the detent of the boost/cut pots so subtle EQ moves are difficult to execute.

From your short list, I vote for Soundcraft.

well, i can get a pm2000 in perfect working order for a pretty good price...

would you say the eq section on that board is not up to par w. the soundcraft 600, tascam m2600, allen and heath g3000 etc?

(one thing is for sure, the pm2000 is alot sexier looking than the other boards mentioned...)

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by soultrane

well, i can get a pm2000 in perfect working order for a pretty good price...

would you say the eq section on that board is not up to par w. the soundcraft 600, tascam m2600, allen and heath g3000 etc?

I'm not a fan of the Tascam, but I'd certainly find a Soundcraft 600 or A&H G3k equalizer more musical and more usable.

[crypticglobe]

Soundtracs Topaz is what you want. It's basically like a Mackie 8 bus with MUCH better feature set...and it sounds GREAT.

They originally sold for around the same price, or a little higher than the Ghost here in the states (the pre's and EQ's are better than the Ghost for sure in my book).

What's crazy... is they never really caught on here in the states (it was made in England). I guess you can blame Korg... as they were pimping them over here. Now... you can find full 32 channel (it's a fully inline design that's 32 x 32 x 8 x 2) with Meter bridge for around $1500 to $1700 if you shop.

The pre's are precise, in your face, and warm. Much better than Mackie or Ghost. EQ's are really usable. The cue's are a little weird and there is a pretty simply mod that needs to be done to get the tape returns up to +4... but those are the only real downsidese.

I used one for several years with adats of all things... and I always got kudos on how things sounded. That was before I had any decent outboard gear too! Those projects still hold up when I listen to em today.

That would be what I would look for if I were going for something on a budget.

Just my 2 cents...

[blakbeltjonez]

Originally Posted by aussie_techie

soundcraft series 500 & 600 have nice british EQ, being an older console they have a bit more noise than something new but good sound none the less.
short of dumping 5 times the money into venice (which i wouldnt see to be worth while) i would go for a series 500
not sure which series blakbeltjonez has used but the 500 can take unbalanced inputs, no need for an extra DI

i've used a 500 and liked it a lot, as well as the 200, 400, 600, 800 series, they all are pretty similar sonically.... you're right about the inputs, i couldn't remember if all of that series of Soundcrafts had the internal -10/+4 jumpers and after looking at a manual the 500 and 600 series definitely do.

dunno if anyone has mentioned, but doing the star ground mod to those Soundcrafts helps bring the noise floor down... not that they are all that noisy to begin with but by star grounding all the modules to one point the noise level drops several dB and the crosstalk specs improve also - a labor intensive but cheap mod for the DIY'er.

[blakbeltjonez]

my memory also failed me re: the inserts - on most of the old ones the inserts are unbalanced, except i think on the 800B...


i just saw the Yamaha PM-3000 as a choice on the original poster's list, and i'd have to say it's a pretty far cry from the PM-1000 or PM-2000. words like "thin" and "plastic sounding" come to mind...... they had a lot of features that were handy for live sound, but audio quality wasn't quite one of them. the pre's and EQ's were not much to write home about. for what you'd find a road dog PM3K for, it wouldn't be worth the money. i'd imagine it would be hard to find one in less than a 32ch. size to begin with, and it would be heavier than hell. more desirable for a budget sound company live rig than for a studio - 3K's have been banished from nearly any decent PA rig for close to 10 years (in favor of the improved PM-4000 or other Yamadog competitors)

an older 02R can be had cheap and is easy to work on, automation, lotsa bells & whistles, etc. but you may find yourself struggling with the sound which is somewhat thin and the EQ & dynamics adequate but uninspiring. clean, clean, clean. boring, boring, boring. preamps are on a par with the aforementioned PM-3000. the new 96K is allegedly much better, but i have never laid hands on... but the 96K will also cost a lot more, and you could get a pretty nice analog console for the cost of the 96K.

the Midas Venice might be a good choice, i have seen/heard it in action although not used personally (this would be in live situations). from what i've learned talking to several other users of it is very positive sound-wise, although the board is laid out kind of wierd for live work (and a couple of the aux sends are pre-fader and apparantly can't be changed) and has 60mm faders versus full size 100 mm .... but, the pre's and EQ are excellent and similar to the high dollar Midas consoles. if you can deal with the Venice quirks and 4 subgroups it might be a winner.