SM7b and pre-amps

[Babydoctor]

Are pre-amps a must have with the SM7b?

I've been in the market for a new vocal mic ($300-400 range) and have been reading very consistent reviews on the quality and ability of the SM7b, especially for the price. However, I have also read in most of the reviews that a pre-amp should be used with the gain cranked way up to really get the mic going.

Here's the issue: I don't have a "real" pre-amp and don't think I could afford one. I do use a Firepod (or now known as the FP10) which has a built-in pre-amp, but there isn't a gain knob or anything like that.

So, that said, do I really need a pre-amp to use with sm7b? Will I be missing out on what I paid for without one? Or will equalizing and compression in Cubase be enough to compensate? Thanks!

[jaxn slim]

I'm pretty sure the FP10 has a gain knob for each channel. I own two firepods, and they both have them. They're the little knobs towards the right side that make the inputs louder. And those are real mic preamps, they're just not particularly great ones.

[Blast9]

Check the gain spec of the firepod... May not have enough gain... You will ideally need 60db gain

All mics need preamps... The issue with the SM7/B mics is they need lots of gain...

[RonT]

Originally Posted by Babydoctor

Are pre-amps a must have with the SM7b?


Here's the issue: I don't have a "real" pre-amp and don't think I could afford one. I do use a Firepod (or now known as the FP10) which has a built-in pre-amp, but there isn't a gain knob or anything like that.

So, that said, do I really need a pre-amp to use with sm7b? Will I be missing out on what I paid for without one? Or will equalizing and compression in Cubase be enough to compensate? Thanks!

But you do have "real" pre-amps 8 of them! Now the question like you asked are they good enough? The answer would be ummmmmmmmm

Maybe.........

The sm7b is a really good mic but does need lots of gain, not to make it sound good but it really does need lots of gain to even give you a good level!

I would look into a Great River. This thing paired with a sm7b is awsome! You will get volume out of the firepod........but you will get SOUND out of the GreatRiver!

Great Mic----Cheap Pre-------=WTF?
Great Pre-----Cheap Mic------=Workable
Great Mic-----Great Pre--------=HellYeah!thumbsup

[Mike@DaleN.Y.C.]

Great Mic----Cheap Pre-------=WTF?
Great Pre-----Cheap Mic------=Workable
Great Mic-----Great Pre--------=HellYeah!thumbsup

This should be in the audio bible, under where to put your money when you're just starting out. Give me a Neve and an SM57 over a Vintage Neumann and an MBox, any day.

Sorry to get off topic, how about the Brent Averil DMP. That'll sound huge with the SM7.

[Chrisc_o]

Originally Posted by RonT

Great Mic----Cheap Pre-------=WTF?
Great Pre-----Cheap Mic------=Workable
Great Mic-----Great Pre--------=HellYeah!thumbsup

I would disagree with this. The mic is always more important than the pre. The only case where the pre plays a major factor is in terms of special gain needs (like the SM7b or most ribbon mics). Example: a U87 into the FP pres will probably sound much better than a Studio Projects B1 into an API ("probably" because it is all source dependent).

It just so happens that this thread is based on a more or less exceptional case, but the above illustration should not be considered a general rule of thumb by any stretch of the imagination.

Good pre-amplification is absolutely important, but not nearly as much as many may believe.

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by Chrisc_o

I would disagree with this. The mic is always more important than the pre. The only case where the pre plays a major factor is in terms of special gain needs (like the SM7b or most ribbon mics). Example: a U87 into the FP pres will probably sound much better than a Studio Projects B1 into an API ("probably" because it is all source dependent).

It just so happens that this thread is based on a more or less exceptional case, but the above illustration should not be considered a general rule of thumb by any stretch of the imagination.

Good pre-amplification is absolutely important, but not nearly as much as many may believe.

You do know you contradicted yourself...
A pre IS important..IF you want to get the best out of your mics...
Both are doing totally different jobs...

[Wildebass]

Originally Posted by Chrisc_o

I would disagree with this. The mic is always more important than the pre. The only case where the pre plays a major factor is in terms of special gain needs (like the SM7b or most ribbon mics). Example: a U87 into the FP pres will probably sound much better than a Studio Projects B1 into an API ("probably" because it is all source dependent).

It just so happens that this thread is based on a more or less exceptional case, but the above illustration should not be considered a general rule of thumb by any stretch of the imagination.

Good pre-amplification is absolutely important, but not nearly as much as many may believe.

I agree with this
the right mic for the right source is WAY more important than the preamp

and to answer your actual question, info found on the Presonus website:
8 XMAX Class A Microphone Preamplifiers (+60dB gain) w/ Trim Control

So yeah, you should have enough gain for an SM7b

Go to a good music store, and test an SM7b on a Firepod, then test any other mic they may have that fit in your budget, and then choose the mic that sounds best with YOUR voice

and forget the rest

[RonT]

Originally Posted by Chrisc_o

I would disagree with this. The mic is always more important than the pre. The only case where the pre plays a major factor is in terms of special gain needs (like the SM7b or most ribbon mics). Example: a U87 into the FP pres will probably sound much better than a Studio Projects B1 into an API ("probably" because it is all source dependent).

It just so happens that this thread is based on a more or less exceptional case, but the above illustration should not be considered a general rule of thumb by any stretch of the imagination.

Good pre-amplification is absolutely important, but not nearly as much as many may believe.

If I buy a u87 and plug it into a "B"word, chances are the characteristics of the u87 are not going to be amplified properly. Putting a $2000 mic into a crappy pre is just stupid.

You need a good pre to amplify the signal of the mic. If the signal is totally screwed up by the Pre i.e. Distortion, Fuzz, Hiss, Dirt, Messed up Lows, Distorted Highs, Peircing Highs, Phased Mids, OMG I can go on and on and on..........

Now take a good Pre, this will most of the time accuratly translate the charater of a particular mic and generally make a low budget mic sound better. The color that a quality pre imparts is, 95% of the times, a good thing. Some Pres are clean and designed to be that way, some are not and imparts it's own color to the signal. OMG really I could go on and on.......

I wonder how many people bought really decent mics then came hear to complain how bad it was? Wonder why that is? Well maybe it wasnt the mic they were hearing?

YMMV but from my experience, after using crappy pres on crappy mixing boards and interfaces for years, I stand by my original assesment of Mic vs Pre. And even if not Mic vs Pre, then for damn sure which one to invest in first.

For a home studio user that dosnt know better.....then it dosnt matter. But for someone like me who can hear the little things that higher quality devices offers, I will NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER again stick my u87 into anything other than a quality pre.

Coming from someone who owns crappy pres, crappy mic, quality pres and quality mics. Again YMMV.

[RonT]

Originally Posted by Wildebass

I agree with this
the right mic for the right source is WAY more important than the preamp

and to answer your actual question, info found on the Presonus website:
8 XMAX Class A Microphone Preamplifiers (+60dB gain) w/ Trim Control

So yeah, you should have enough gain for an SM7b

Go to a good music store, and test an SM7b on a Firepod, then test any other mic they may have that fit in your budget, and then choose the mic that sounds best with YOUR voice

and forget the rest

Aren't you using an EMU 0404 USB as an interface?

[Wildebass]

Originally Posted by RonT

Aren't you using an EMU 0404 USB as an interface?

yes I am
but the original post was a question whether the firepod preamps had enough gain for the SM7b

[Babydoctor]

Thanks for the hasty reply, guys.

I've been reading a lot the past couple of days and, along with certain comments mentioned here, have been thinking about spending most of my cash on a decent pre-amp and using one of my already owned microphones instead of buying a new mic and getting a cheap pre-amp.

I currently have an SM58, SM57, and a Rode NT5. I like the SM58 as it fits well with my voice and have used it a lot, and from what I'm reading getting a good pre-amp can really up its quality.

Here is the interface form my Firepod: http://cachepe.zzounds.com/media/qua...2d4e41800c.jpg. Now, it does have the gain knobs, and they can, in my experience, go loud enough to make a mouse fart clip on any mic I've tried, so do you think they could push the SM7b? Or would I be wasting a good mic on a sub-par preamp?

So that being said, if I do just get a pre-amp, I've got around $3-400. That Great River preamp mentioned is little out of my price range [read: way over], so any recommendations around there?

[kafka]

Originally Posted by Wildebass

but the original post was a question whether the firepod preamps had enough gain for the SM7b

The firepod has 60dB of gain, which may or not be enough, depending on the source. It should be plenty for a guitar cabinet, but probably not enough for some vocals. If the OP finds he still needs more gain, since the Firepod has 48v phantom power, he can get 20dB more gain with either a Rode D-Power Plug | Sweetwater.com or a FetHead - tritonaudio.

[Chrislpp]

I was always under the impression it was the mic that, if changed, would make the most tonal differences.

Most people couldn't tell the difference in the ART Tube MP and a Great River here, but then again, those types of shootouts are wrong!

If you want immediate changes, get the mic, if you want to treat it to something special, invest in a preamp that will give that little bit extra.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by Wildebass

I agree with this
the right mic for the right source is WAY more important than the preamp

A good preamp will 'maximize' a mic and there are plenty of situations where say a SM 57 will be the best choice and more useful than high-dollar condensor (that will shine in other situations).

I'm constantly amazed by the SM7b though, I got two of them and want at least another one!

[strewnshank]

Originally Posted by Babydoctor

Or will equalizing and compression in Cubase be enough to compensate?

No.

It will make it louder, sure. That isn't the point.

You are probably going to be let down if you plan on adding gain with plugin eq's and compression.

But further reading suggests you are exploring other options.

You probably know this, but the room sound is another huge aspect to how your chain sounds.

And for what its worth, the SM7b sounds great if a transformer is somewhere in the chain. I use my MXP3036 pres with trannies for those mics.

[Jimsi]

Originally Posted by RonT

But you do have "real" pre-amps 8 of them! Now the question like you asked are they good enough? The answer would be ummmmmmmmm

Maybe.........

The sm7b is a really good mic but does need lots of gain, not to make it sound good but it really does need lots of gain to even give you a good level!

I would look into a Great River. This thing paired with a sm7b is awsome! You will get volume out of the firepod........but you will get SOUND out of the GreatRiver!

Great Mic----Cheap Pre-------=WTF?
Great Pre-----Cheap Mic------=Workable
Great Mic-----Great Pre--------=HellYeah!thumbsup

I have to say the preamp is more important. A bad preamp can destroy a good mic's signal, it scatters the sound/signal or distorts badly (try stacking tracks mixing a recording session using bad pres, you soon see/hear what I mean)...a good pre with a bad mic allows a cleaner more organized signal to pass...not disrupting it letting what the mic sounds like pass without bad/fuzzy distortion...but to be honest, you will need both in the long run....I used to think a good mic would be ok with a cheaper preamp, but i was wrong....IMHO

[Jabbaz]

Originally Posted by Chrislpp

Most people couldn't tell the difference in the ART Tube MP and a Great River here, but then again, those types of shootouts are wrong!

tuttI got the impression most people could tell the difference, they just preferred the ART in the context provided (at least until the shootout key was revealed )

I started with a mackie vlz-pro, then bought an RNP, then GR. At no upgrade point did I identify a massive quality increase in my recordings, but my recordings today are leagues ahead of my early ones. Not really a controlled experiment though, since my mic technique has improved over the years.

There rarely seems time to A/B preamps when the talent's in the studio waiting for me to be ready to record.

[Babydoctor]

Originally Posted by kafka

The firepod has 60dB of gain, which may or not be enough, depending on the source signal. It should be plenty for a guitar cabinet, but probably not enough for some vocals. If the OP finds he still needs more gain, since the Firepod has 48v phantom power, he can get 20dB more gain with either a Rode D-Power Plug | Sweetwater.com or a FetHead - tritonaudio.

From what I have read, including a comment in this thread, 60db seems to be around the sweet spot for the gain. Lets say I can meet the gain requirement fine - will that much gain from my Firepod be "good" gain? As in clear gain? Unfortunately I have no way of trying out the mic with my equipment before I buy it.

Bottom line here: will I get better quality with a decent preamp ($400 range) and my SM58/57 or with the SM7b and my Firepod and/or cheaper preamp ($150 range)?

Originally Posted by strewnshank

No.

It will make it louder, sure. That isn't the point.

You are probably going to be let down if you plan on adding gain with plugin eq's and compression.

But further reading suggests you are exploring other options.

You probably know this, but the room sound is another huge aspect to how your chain sounds.

And for what its worth, the SM7b sounds great if a transformer is somewhere in the chain. I use my MXP3036 pres with trannies for those mics.

Gotcha, and I kind of figured that.

I'm aware of how important room sound is, but unfortunately I haven't got the funds to make my rooms that acoustically-fit. What kind of transformer? I'm not even sure I know what they are.

[doncaparker]

If you are OK with your Firepod for now, and all you are worried about is whether it will have enough clean gain for a Shure SM7b, why not buy one of those inline preamps, like a Triton Fethead? You get an extra 20db for $100. That's an inexpensive way to get the mic you want and ensure that you have enough gain for it.

I don't own one, but everyone who writes about the Fethead says it is great. For $100, I would buy one if I had a gain issue.

[strewnshank]

Originally Posted by Babydoctor

I haven't got the funds to make my rooms that acoustically-fit. What kind of transformer? I'm not even sure I know what they are.

Yes you do.

Buy some of this and then get some cheap cloth. Cover. Hang.

$100 of DIY sound treatment will take your current gear further thank $1000 worth of SM7b and x-brand preamp, especially if you have a 58 and 57.

The sound of your room is so inherently important to the sound of your rig that it isn't just worth mentioning, it is criminal not to.

[Reginator]

Hi Babydoctor,

I use my SM7b with a GAP Pre73 and RNC. I sing in a converted closet with a few pieces of Auralex to cut down on the reflections. It's all low cost but I think it works out ok.

Here's a quick sample of me whipping out Harry Connick Jr's version of "On The Street Where You Live" to give you an idea of the SM7b into a GAP Pre73.

On The Street Where You Live.mp3

On The Street Where You Live.wav

[Ionei]

You'll have enough gain.
I've never had gain problems with my sm7, ever.
Maybe I'm just a loud singer and maybe I only have ever worked with loud singers.
But gain has never been a problem for me.

[NewAndImprov]

I have run my SM7 through the pre's In my Motu 828, and gotten enough gain and a very useable sound. It definitely sounds better through a better pre ( I like it paired with a sca N72), but it still has it's character through the Motu pre's. I'd say to give it a shot with the Firepod. It is a great mic.

[kafka]

Originally Posted by Babydoctor

From what I have read, including a comment in this thread, 60db seems to be around the sweet spot for the gain. Lets say I can meet the gain requirement fine - will that much gain from my Firepod be "good" gain? As in clear gain? Unfortunately I have no way of trying out the mic with my equipment before I buy it.

Bottom line here: will I get better quality with a decent preamp ($400 range) and my SM58/57 or with the SM7b and my Firepod and/or cheaper preamp ($150 range)?

Honestly, 60dB should be fine for even most singers. If you're really quiet, then maybe you need the extra few dB. The RodeD and Fethead are a good way to get that extra boost without investing more than $100.

$400? Well, I just paid $450 for a used Daking. That was a pretty good deal, but I don't think there are a whole lot of them at that price. But that said, I don't know what the Firepod sounds like. The Mackie Onyx preamps have always been a good value. You can pick up a used 400f in that price range and have four preamps. I'd suggest that the difference between what you have and what you can get for $400 is probably incremental, at best.

If this is an either/or thing, well, an SM7 and an SM57 don't sound the same, and you'll just have to try them out to see the difference. The SM57 always sounds at least good on every guitar cab I point it at. I'm not always as happy with the SM7. For vocals I grab the SM57 all the time. I guess maybe I'm just not really into the SM7 all that much. I will blend it with another mic on a guitar cab, but I never use it alone. I need something a little more cutting, so it's just not the right mic for my voice.

[Wildebass]

Originally Posted by Jabbaz

tuttI got the impression most people could tell the difference, they just preferred the ART in the context provided (at least until the shootout key was revealed )

I started with a mackie vlz-pro, then bought an RNP, then GR. At no upgrade point did I identify a massive quality increase in my recordings, but my recordings today are leagues ahead of my early ones. Not really a controlled experiment though, since my mic technique has improved over the years.

There rarely seems time to A/B preamps when the talent's in the studio waiting for me to be ready to record.

All excellent points! Of course there is a difference between great preamps and crappy preamps. But how many crappy preamps are there really out there?

(crappy being distored, badly colored, etc. etc.)

I doubt Presonus makes anything with truly crappy preamps.

If you can't get a usable sound out of a Shure SM7b run through a Presonus preamp, then the gear isn't crappy, the engineer is crappy.

Yeah, it's great having a U87 running through a Neve, but if your source is poo, all you're going to get on the other end is polished poo.

If you lock up Eric Clapton, James Jamerson, Elton John, Keith Moon and Freddie Mercury in a studio and have Bruce Swedien there as an engineer.
Then tell them all they could use were Nady mics, Squier guitars, Casio keyboards, Behringer mixer and monitors, a ratty drumset from a garage sale and they must record into Audacity and use free plugs to mix. The end result would still kick all our butts, both creatively and sonically.

The gear needs to conform to the talent, not the other way around.

[SoundWeavers]

SM7B is a great vocal mic, it works for a lot of singers in different genres. I've used in metal/trash/hardcore bands and I've also used it on solo female vocals.

on this recent project I'm working it, the lead vocal is a female with a rather thin sounding voice - the SM7B won vs u87, Lawson 47 and AEA R84. The signal chain is SM7B to Germanium preamp to MC77 compressor.

the preamp is kinda important although we've used SM7B quite a lot with our Presonus DIGIMAX FS especially on remote recording gigs.

hope this helps.

[Chrisc_o]

Originally Posted by Wildebass

All excellent points! Of course there is a difference between great preamps and crappy preamps. But how many crappy preamps are there really out there?

(crappy being distored, badly colored, etc. etc.)

I doubt Presonus makes anything with truly crappy preamps.

If you can't get a usable sound out of a Shure SM7b run through a Presonus preamp, then the gear isn't crappy, the engineer is crappy.

Yeah, it's great having a U87 running through a Neve, but if your source is poo, all you're going to get on the other end is polished poo.

If you lock up Eric Clapton, James Jamerson, Elton John, Keith Moon and Freddie Mercury in a studio and have Bruce Swedien there as an engineer.
Then tell them all they could use were Nady mics, Squier guitars, Casio keyboards, Behringer mixer and monitors, a ratty drumset from a garage sale and they must record into Audacity and use free plugs to mix. The end result would still kick all our butts, both creatively and sonically.

The gear needs to conform to the talent, not the other way around.

THIS post should be in the one in the audio bible.

[amomentsloss]

+ 1 for Wildebass


Don't get too caught up in the "real" preamp scheme. That firepod has more than enough gain for an SM7B, hell, maybe even a ribbon with a decent signal. You could always get an outboard pre and run through the line in in the back of your firepod. There is some stuff by Joe Meek, Event, etc that is affordable and sounds quite good.

[Babydoctor]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the input from all of you and it looks like I'm pretty close on deciding to get the SM7b. I just wish it worked well on acoustic guitars, too. Thus is life.

That being said, anyone have any final recommendations for a good vocal mic that works well on acoustic guitars, too (or any acoustic instrument, for that matter)? Right now, for acoustics, I use either my friend's SM57 or my Rode NT5 and they're not bad, but if I can get a good vocal mic that is also pretty decent on acoustics, why not?

After this I'm definitely going to save up and get a nice preamp in a few months instead of just buying a mediocre one. Buy cheap, buy twice, as they say.