Entry-level mics --> Soundcraft Delta --> ???? --> MacBook Pro

[unschooled]

So I am new to the forum and home recording in general but feel like I am close to having a decent beginner rig for small projects. First, what I have used for years when it was just me and an acoustic and a drum machine was an Edirol UA-700, which is a somewhat obscure "do-it-all" little box. In an effort to step up not only in quality but in number of channels, I acquired a Soundcraft Delta board which is configured 16x4x2 right now. I am running Logic on a MacBook Pro (no room for a card in the 13") and am not sure what to put in between. Face-to-face and in another thread I have been advised to consider a wide array of options from the Alesis HD24 to the MOTU 2408, and even the Behringer ADA8000. None of these seems a slam dunk to me for various reasons, and obviously there are many possibilities depending on budget and overall goals.

So in an effort to better define the current scope and my approach... I figure there are at least three phases to getting a project studio going that will suit my needs for years to come. I'll be recording your basic garage band - drums, guitars, amps, digital keyboard, vocals, etc. In this initial phase I would like to get a basic infrastructure going with components that are flexible in terms of expansion/upgrade later on. I don't want any one component to be way out of line with the others. I am using garden variety SM58s 57s and can borrow some decent condensers when needed (AT3031?). The Soundcraft console is in good shape and I am happy with the pre's so far. Still learning Logic, but seems adequate. Hopefully, I am about $500 away from completing the basic chain, but I am open to suggestions.

Phase II would be to add some effects and/or plug-ins and deciding whether mixing in the box or coming back out through the console. Would also need to acquire more mic options. Getting a footing with mixing seems to imply investing in monitors (using bookshelf speakers now). I figure if I am still up for it then I can spend $1,000-$1,500 next summer in this area.

Phase III, if everything is going well, would be to upgrade console (or Jim Williams mods?) and converters or expand channels with higher-end converters and more mics. Obviously, lots of money can be spent quickly here, and I am not there yet.

Of course I know there is always more gear to want, but you get the idea.

So with some of the bigger picture in mind, what should go between the console and the MacBook now? Is there something that will still be functional alongside higher-end equipment later on that is in the $500 range now? If not, what has the best re-sale value to be replaced later on? Thanks so much for your time and helpful suggestions.

[drak12]

Originally Posted by unschooled

So I am new to the forum and home recording in general but feel like I am close to having a decent beginner rig for small projects. First, what I have used for years when it was just me and an acoustic and a drum machine was an Edirol UA-700, which is a somewhat obscure "do-it-all" little box. In an effort to step up not only in quality but in number of channels, I acquired a Soundcraft Delta board which is configured 16x4x2 right now. I am running Logic on a MacBook Pro (no room for a card in the 13") and am not sure what to put in between. Face-to-face and in another thread I have been advised to consider a wide array of options from the Alesis HD24 to the MOTU 2408, and even the Behringer ADA8000. None of these seems a slam dunk to me for various reasons, and obviously there are many possibilities depending on budget and overall goals.

So in an effort to better define the current scope and my approach... I figure there are at least three phases to getting a project studio going that will suit my needs for years to come. I'll be recording your basic garage band - drums, guitars, amps, digital keyboard, vocals, etc. In this initial phase I would like to get a basic infrastructure going with components that are flexible in terms of expansion/upgrade later on. I don't want any one component to be way out of line with the others. I am using garden variety SM58s 57s and can borrow some decent condensers when needed (AT3031?). The Soundcraft console is in good shape and I am happy with the pre's so far. Still learning Logic, but seems adequate. Hopefully, I am about $500 away from completing the basic chain, but I am open to suggestions.

Phase II would be to add some effects and/or plug-ins and deciding whether mixing in the box or coming back out through the console. Would also need to acquire more mic options. Getting a footing with mixing seems to imply investing in monitors (using bookshelf speakers now). I figure if I am still up for it then I can spend $1,000-$1,500 next summer in this area.

Phase III, if everything is going well, would be to upgrade console (or Jim Williams mods?) and converters or expand channels with higher-end converters and more mics. Obviously, lots of money can be spent quickly here, and I am not there yet.

Of course I know there is always more gear to want, but you get the idea.

So with some of the bigger picture in mind, what should go between the console and the MacBook now? Is there something that will still be functional alongside higher-end equipment later on that is in the $500 range now? If not, what has the best re-sale value to be replaced later on? Thanks so much for your time and helpful suggestions.

I think a decent pre made the biggest different - did in our studio anyway - focusrite platinum seemed far better than the pres on our studiomaster desk. A decent condensor helps too - even the MXL 2400 sounded great a lot of the time. Can you not get plug ins to do EQ and compression etc?

[Blast9]

Assuming you are happy with the Soundcraft's mic pres.

I am guessing you are going to need up to 16 inputs.

Can you elaborate - Why are the other suggestions not "slam dunks" for you?

An 8 channel FW interface with ADAT I/O would do the trick... plus an ADA8000.

What about a Mackie FW interface - OR The Steinberg Yamaha MR816 X Or maybe up your budget and consider an Apogee Ensemble?

If you are going to keep the console look at the ones without mic pres...

[unschooled]

Originally Posted by Blast9

Assuming you are happy with the Soundcraft's mic pres.

I am guessing you are going to need up to 16 inputs.

Can you elaborate - Why are the other suggestions not "slam dunks" for you?

An 8 channel FW interface with ADAT I/O would do the trick... plus an ADA8000.

What about a Mackie FW interface - OR The Steinberg Yamaha MR816 X Or maybe up your budget and consider an Apogee Ensemble?

If you are going to keep the console look at the ones without mic pres...

Regarding the other suggestions, the Alesis HD24 is at the top of my price limit (a little above really) and would seem to do the job of the multitrack software. Perhaps I would dump the track from the hard drives to the Mac and then edit there?

I think the FW interface is the obvious path, but I'm not sure what product makes the most sense with respect to balancing good conversion with the fact that it will have other "bells and whistles" like pre's that I don't need and so on. That's why the Behringer-only suggestion (from others) confused me since it only has ADAT. It seems like more of an expansion unit.

Which brings me to your FW Int/ADA8000 combination scenario. I like this a lot, as I may not need 16 channels for a while. In fact, I would be willing to get a better quality interface with less channels as long as it could be expanded with a Behringer or similar 8-channel box later. I'm not sure if such a thing exists. It looks like I can score a Profire 2626 used for about $500. Any experience with this one? How does the MOTU and M-Audio stuff compare to Presonus and other typical GC brands? You mention the Mackie and Yamaha products, and I will read up on those too. I don't know anything about them other than I have been told by several folks to stay away from Mackie in general.

[unschooled]

Originally Posted by drak12

I think a decent pre made the biggest different - did in our studio anyway - focusrite platinum seemed far better than the pres on our studiomaster desk. A decent condensor helps too - even the MXL 2400 sounded great a lot of the time. Can you not get plug ins to do EQ and compression etc?

I'm happy with the pre's in the Soundcraft DLX modules for now, and I know they can be upgraded with mods later. I don't know anything about plug-ins yet, but I'm sure much of what I want to do will be available by learning in that area. Nonetheless, I need to get the tracks into digital before I can use those tools (right?) and that is what I am focusing on now.

[Blast9]

Originally Posted by unschooled

Which brings me to your FW Int/ADA8000 combination scenario. I like this a lot, as I may not need 16 channels for a while. In fact, I would be willing to get a better quality interface with less channels as long as it could be expanded with a Behringer or similar 8-channel box later. I'm not sure if such a thing exists. It looks like I can score a Profire 2626 used for about $500. Any experience with this one? How does the MOTU and M-Audio stuff compare to Presonus and other typical GC brands? You mention the Mackie and Yamaha products, and I will read up on those too. I don't know anything about them other than I have been told by several folks to stay away from Mackie in general.

OK... understood re Alesis etc.

An engineer I greatly respect uses both RME fireface and the Yamaha Steinberg MR816 X, and despite the price difference really rates the conversion quality of the MR816 X - the main reason he bought it was because he uses Cubase and the Steinberg Yamaha is designed specifically to integrate deeply with Cubase.

He has conducted loopback tests on both converters and finds them of comparable.

The irony is that often the dedicated converters with no mic pres are significantly more expensive... Probably due to the high quality analogue paths

[unschooled]

Originally Posted by Blast9

An engineer I greatly respect uses both RME fireface and the Yamaha Steinberg MR816 X, and despite the price difference really rates the conversion quality of the MR816 X - the main reason he bought it was because he uses Cubase and the Steinberg Yamaha is designed specifically to integrate deeply with Cubase.

I was reading up on the yamaha and deep integration with Cubase turned me off since I am using logic. Rme keeps showing up, so while it may mean I have to extend my price a bit I may seriously consider it. My question would be: can I use a rme 4 channel to get going and eventually add on an eight channel behringer or similar? The goal being to reduce the initial cost of the interface a little.

And you're right about the cost of stand alone converters being higher than the all-in-one type products. Based on my experience with guitar amps I'm not surprised that specialized gear costs more, but The hope with amps is that the price/quality ratio I still better, and often it is. I'm not able to evaluate recording gear the same way yet, and I'm not sure mytek prices, for instance, are commensurate with the relative quality compared to typical consumer gear from GC and the like.

Thanks for your helpful comments- I think i am getting closer to a path forward though I may have to save a little longer.

[Blast9]

I'm afraid I am "unschooled" << with the RME stuff - try and look at the spec of the Fireface 400 unit and see if it has ADAT I/0 - I am sure it does, as the spec is pro all the way.

In any case you have 8 analog I/O - the mic pres can be used as line in as well so you're there already

EDIT - yes it does have ADAT I/O so if you had the cash later you could get an RME ADAT unit:

An ADAT optical I/O allows for a connection and insertion of effects devices, mixing consoles or external converters. Of course, these 8 channels are available simultaneously with the analog channels. Using an additional ADI-8 DS or OctaMic D, you'll get 16 analog inputs and outputs, which remain still 12 at 96 kHz.

PS... Apple/Apogee?

[unschooled]

Originally Posted by Blast9

Apple/Apogee?

Yeah, Apogee always come up when I mention Logic. I don't know much about them. The main reason I haven't looked seriously is that the price for 8 channels is up around $1,400 used. If there is ADAT on the Duet maybe that is an option. I'm probably way off, but my intuition makes me think that Apogee is for the higher end what Mackie is for the lower end - a product that seeks price differentiation in its target market mostly based on marketing effort. I figure if I'm still learning and enjoying recording a few years from now I'll evaluate the gear from Mytek, Apogee, Prism Sound, etc.

[unschooled]

Thanks for all the input so far. The M-Audio Profire stuff is tempting for price (used 2626 for ~$500). The RME Fireface 400 is feature-rich but might be out of my price range used (~$900). The Behringer ADA8000 is a likely candidate for adding 8 more channels to whatever I get via ADAT for about $175. A friend has suggested Presonus, but I think he was basing that on features and not sound.

Anybody else have any suggestions?? What's everybody else using as an interface?

[Blast9]

The Apogee stuff is without a doubt excellent though.

The analog circuitry and conversion quality = very clear sonics/low distortion

I am talking about the Ensemble here. No experience with the Duet but have heard very nice recordings done with both the Duet and the One.

-

Anyway - for tracking - I think you have plenty of flexibility with the Soundcraft and your interface of choice -

Desk has inserts and 2 sweepable mids (semi para) per channel... 6 aux sends pre or post fader...

Does each channel have its own "tape out"?

4 sub groups with inserts.

If you want a shorter signal path you can bypass the desk and just use the interfcae line ins

[unschooled]

Regarding the Soundcraft desk, it is a bit of an odd animal. The first eight inputs (D202) are not deluxe inputs, which means they have only one sweepable mid and an insert but no direct out (so these modules are another area that can be upgraded later). The next eight deluxe inputs (D201) have the two sweepable mids and also direct outs (is this what you mean by tape out?). The group modules (D203) have Tape A and B outputs and inserts. It was set up this way to A) be flexible for both live mixing and recording situations and B) balance out the trade value. How to make the best use of this configuration with regard to sending for effects and groups etc will be a whole new thread I'm sure!

[Blast9]

Sorry I meant direct out!