!NOOBIES! Mixing Drums without samples (Simple Guideline)

[dualflip]

Originally Posted by Reuts

why is it generally advised not to use coated heads?

Coated heads tend to emphasize harmonics, which some people consider harder to control, however some of the best drum sounds ive recorded used coated heads, the trick is to know how to tune them

[themixtape]

Drum sound production--- great thread, first off--

I have to chime in and say that Stars of Track and Field's debut album "Centuries Before Love and War" has my favorite drum sound of the last twenty years.... you guys have got to hear the tom tuning and snare sound and crash/ride on this... it is PERFECT!!!

Another album from the same year is Minipop's "A New Hope", produced by the guy from Jellyfish. Lauren's simple kit (I think she plays a 20" Avedis Medium Ride).... sounds SO... FRIGGIN... GOOD,... whether played with brushes or with sticks. Definitely check these out, guys. Let me know what you think.

[James Meeker]

Originally Posted by themixtape

I have to chime in and say that Stars of Track and Field's debut album "Centuries Before Love and War" has my favorite drum sound of the last twenty years.... you guys have got to hear the tom tuning and snare sound and crash/ride on this... it is PERFECT!!!

Just goes to prove one man's perfect is another man's yawn.

[tmfcovers]

I've always adored the snare on the live version of "Brian Wilson" by Barenaked Ladies that they put on their greatest hits compilation. They made a music video for it, so you can find it no problem on YouTube. I don't understand why Tyler Stewart switched from his Ayotte kits to Pearls. The Ayottes sounded incredible, whereas his current kit fails to impress me.

[jordanvoth]

Originally Posted by tmfcovers

I've always adored the snare on the live version of "Brian Wilson" by Barenaked Ladies that they put on their greatest hits compilation. They made a music video for it, so you can find it no problem on YouTube. I don't understand why Tyler Stewart switched from his Ayotte kits to Pearls. The Ayottes sounded incredible, whereas his current kit fails to impress me.

I use Ayottes. They're a great kit.

My method changes a lot, the last time I posted on this thread I was probably using a totally different set of procedures.

These days kicks are replaced by a single velocity sample from the tracks.
Snares are strip silenced, limited (retain dynamics, depends on whos playing as to how much), compressed (wave form shaping) and some eq (tucking in mid range annoyances, clean up lows and low mids).

TOMS on the other hand are an issue. They sound great in the overheads, great in the room mics, in the room playing but sound awful in the mics. I've tried 421s, E906 and SM7. Nothings working. What are you guys using? What general annoyances do you guys here on your toms?

[carlheinz]

In the OP...Lots of great info.

You mention using gates.I would not gate anything going in.Like compression,once it's on,you can't remove it.
In some cases,you can't beat a pair of 1176's on OVR's or on the room..or on a sub...or on an aux .or on the kik/snr tracks...sidechained or inserted.


Did I say I love 1176's?

[tmfcovers]

Originally Posted by jordanvoth

TOMS on the other hand are an issue. They sound great in the overheads, great in the room mics, in the room playing but sound awful in the mics. I've tried 421s, E906 and SM7. Nothings working. What are you guys using? What general annoyances do you guys here on your toms?

I've still just got a really low-end setup, so I haven't even had a chance to try other mics, but I did a 4-song EP with a band earlier this year (link to my Soundcloud at the bottom of this post) and I love the tom sounds. The drummer has a Ludwig kit that I believe is pretty low-end; and I put an SM57 on tom 1, an SM77 (which I believe is just an SM57 with no transformer) on tom 2, and a Sennheiser e835 on floor tom, all into the stock pres on my PreSonus FireStudio Project. I don't think I did anything to the toms other than EQ and automation, but I'm out of town so I can't open up the projects and confirm that. But I EQ'd them by rolling off a lot of the lows and highs, then sweeping through the midrange with a narrow band cranked up as far as my plugin would go (ReaEQ, stock in REAPER) to find where it sounded best, then I lowered the gain on the band and broadened it a bit. I got rid of a lot of the boom on the toms in order to make space for them in the mix, and I'm happy with the way they sound.

Here's the EP, if you'd like to hear it. I think the last song, "Far Beyond the World", shows off the toms the best, especially during the bridge (skip to about 2:45 to hear it), or around the end of "The Beauty of Fire" (skip to 3:00).

The Beauty of Fire by tmfcovers on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

[lefthanddoes]

Originally Posted by jordanvoth

I use Ayottes. They're a great kit.
TOMS on the other hand are an issue. They sound great in the overheads, great in the room mics, in the room playing but sound awful in the mics. I've tried 421s, E906 and SM7. Nothings working. What are you guys using? What general annoyances do you guys here on your toms?

Try LDCs. C414s close on toms will give you a huge realistic tom sound.

[jordanvoth]

Originally Posted by tmfcovers

I've still just got a really low-end setup, so I haven't even had a chance to try other mics, but I did a 4-song EP with a band earlier this year (link to my Soundcloud at the bottom of this post) and I love the tom sounds. The drummer has a Ludwig kit that I believe is pretty low-end; and I put an SM57 on tom 1, an SM77 (which I believe is just an SM57 with no transformer) on tom 2, and a Sennheiser e835 on floor tom, all into the stock pres on my PreSonus FireStudio Project. I don't think I did anything to the toms other than EQ and automation, but I'm out of town so I can't open up the projects and confirm that. But I EQ'd them by rolling off a lot of the lows and highs, then sweeping through the midrange with a narrow band cranked up as far as my plugin would go (ReaEQ, stock in REAPER) to find where it sounded best, then I lowered the gain on the band and broadened it a bit. I got rid of a lot of the boom on the toms in order to make space for them in the mix, and I'm happy with the way they sound.

Here's the EP, if you'd like to hear it. I think the last song, "Far Beyond the World", shows off the toms the best, especially during the bridge (skip to about 2:45 to hear it), or around the end of "The Beauty of Fire" (skip to 3:00).

The Beauty of Fire by tmfcovers on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

Hey man,

my toms NEVER sound like this in tracking, good job on the recording. Singer reminds me of Rise Against.

[jordanvoth]

Originally Posted by lefthanddoes

Try LDCs. C414s close on toms will give you a huge realistic tom sound.

I have two LDCs, one is a Cad E100 and the other is a Neumann TLM49.
Neither of them get close to drums. I'm going to see if I can get a pair of m179s.
I haven't had this issue lately cause I've abandoned my gentle eqing and have really started eqing close micd toms more and I've had better luck. I'm going to screw around with placement to see if that's my issue as well.

[metrocenter]

I am still a noobie: my music tends toward a vintage sound, definitely not hard rock/metal. So I almost always use the Ringo trick of dampening the snare with something, like a cigarette pack, wallet, or roll of electrical tape. So far it's working for me.

[DrMV]

Give the SPL Transient Designer plug-in a shot for mixing individual drums. It really has kind of an "all-in-one" EQ-compression effect. I find myself only using a touch of corrective EQ going into it.

[mynaemisjonas]

Originally Posted by metrocenter

I am still a noobie: my music tends toward a vintage sound, definitely not hard rock/metal. So I almost always use the Ringo trick of dampening the snare with something, like a cigarette pack, wallet, or roll of electrical tape. So far it's working for me.

ductape

don't leave it on overnight...

[guitarkelton]

Originally Posted by jordanvoth

I use Ayottes. They're a great kit.

My method changes a lot, the last time I posted on this thread I was probably using a totally different set of procedures.

These days kicks are replaced by a single velocity sample from the tracks.
Snares are strip silenced, limited (retain dynamics, depends on whos playing as to how much), compressed (wave form shaping) and some eq (tucking in mid range annoyances, clean up lows and low mids).

TOMS on the other hand are an issue. They sound great in the overheads, great in the room mics, in the room playing but sound awful in the mics. I've tried 421s, E906 and SM7. Nothings working. What are you guys using? What general annoyances do you guys here on your toms?

I really like the Encore 100 by Blue on the high rack Tom, sm57 on 2nd rack Tom, and the e609 on the floor Tom. That works for me when I go for the stick attack plus dead Tom sound

[guitarkelton]

Originally Posted by guitarkelton

I really like the Encore 100 by Blue on the high rack Tom, sm57 on 2nd rack Tom, and the e609 on the floor Tom. That works for me when I go for the stick attack plus dead Tom sound

Or a D6 on the floor Tom

[duo jet]

Great thread, thanks for this!

The only thing I'm not so sure about is gating during tracking, but to each her own.

[tumdrum]

Originally Posted by tmfcovers

I've always adored the snare on the live version of "Brian Wilson" by Barenaked Ladies that they put on their greatest hits compilation. They made a music video for it, so you can find it no problem on YouTube. I don't understand why Tyler Stewart switched from his Ayotte kits to Pearls. The Ayottes sounded incredible, whereas his current kit fails to impress me.

Endorsements. Pearl probably pays more.... Being that they are a much bigger company

[mynaemisjonas]

Originally Posted by duo jet

Great thread, thanks for this!

The only thing I'm not so sure about is gating during tracking, but to each her own.

Hmm. Sounds like a bad idea to me also.

[davew]

just curious, i hear ya on the "turn this knob to this setting, etc...."

does anyone simply mix real drums by ear anymore? i mix every track until it sounds good to me. 'setting' may be a good starting point for some (beginners), to me what you hear/like is all that matters.

[davew]

Originally Posted by jordanvoth

TOMS on the other hand are an issue. They sound great in the overheads, great in the room mics, in the room playing but sound awful in the mics. I've tried 421s, E906 and SM7. Nothings working. What are you guys using? What general annoyances do you guys here on your toms?

CAD 179! the poor man's C414! trust me - they sound very close to 414's on toms, and you can get four 179's for the price of one C414! (ebay)
also good on kick, overheads, and guitar cabs.

[allof6foot6]

Originally Posted by tumdrum

Endorsements. Pearl probably pays more.... Being that they are a much bigger company

The move may not necessarily have been all about money for Tyler Stewart. When Ray Ayotte sold the Ayotte brand (a Canadian company), many of his loyal followers and endorsers were left to their own devices. This included high profile Canadian drummers like Tyler. It took a while for Ray to successfully relaunch his drum manufacturing interests, this time as Taye drums. In my experience, the original Ayotte drums were and are VERY special drums. While they are both very reputable drum companies, it is my opinion that neither Taye drums nor current Ayotte drums are generating the same magic that Ray consistently delivered while at the helm of Ayotte Drums.

My guess is that Tyler Stewart simply had to get on with the business of drumming in Ray's absence at Ayotte, including securing new sponsorship deals. At the time, the Ladies were making significant strides in the American music scene (not an easy task - just ask the Tragically Hip). Pearl likely seized an opportunity to generate new brand exposure in a corner of the music market that the Barenaked Ladies were creating at the time.

Now, if any of companies want to tap into the "basement-drummer-with-recording-gear-because-everyone-else-is-flat-broke" piece of the market, feel free to hit me up!

[twonks]

Awesome guide! thanks for sharing. I really enjoyed.

[tumdrum]

Originally Posted by allof6foot6

The move may not necessarily have been all about money for Tyler Stewart. When Ray Ayotte sold the Ayotte brand (a Canadian company), many of his loyal followers and endorsers were left to their own devices. This included high profile Canadian drummers like Tyler. It took a while for Ray to successfully relaunch his drum manufacturing interests, this time as Taye drums. In my experience, the original Ayotte drums were and are VERY special drums. While they are both very reputable drum companies, it is my opinion that neither Taye drums nor current Ayotte drums are generating the same magic that Ray consistently delivered while at the helm of Ayotte Drums.

My guess is that Tyler Stewart simply had to get on with the business of drumming in Ray's absence at Ayotte, including securing new sponsorship deals. At the time, the Ladies were making significant strides in the American music scene (not an easy task - just ask the Tragically Hip). Pearl likely seized an opportunity to generate new brand exposure in a corner of the music market that the Barenaked Ladies were creating at the time.

Now, if any of companies want to tap into the "basement-drummer-with-recording-gear-because-everyone-else-is-flat-broke" piece of the market, feel free to hit me up!

Pretty sure its cause pearl pays more.

[erictarr]

Here is an in-depth tutorial video on mixing drums in a session from start to finish.

Superior Drummer 2 and Waves Plug-ins - YouTube

[cjogo]

not a NOOBIE -- but an OLDIE .. Generally record a E drum set to a Kurzweil Rack & the sequencer --- and send a 8 channel snake to a Roland VS 2480 input ..no editing > except for EQ/Effects


But when it calls for live drums -- its 3 mics and direct to the Roland DAW > Certainly never WAV editing. It's music as it happens ..

[heavypeanut]

I have to say I'm getting schooled in these forums.! Much gratitude. And of course I am grateful for all the great information made available to us noobs reading this great thread on drums!
I was hoping to get feedback on a must list of preferred drum mics. I intend to rent them for an upcoming demo. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again guys this is a power thread for sure )
Cheers,
HP

[psyOPs]

Great guide! This is further refining the approach i've been using so far, but coming at live recording and mixing from years of working with electronic drums is a big change.

Live is so dynamic!

[Rascal Audio]

Joel's Mix Up: Engineering Drums Part One: An Introduction

[Due Diligence]

first thing you need to do is pick the right drumsounds that fit together....if you pick the wrong sounds, your mix will never sound right nomatter what the settings are.

[munnin]

I'm partial to the drums on Tool's album Lateralus and Led Zeppelin's Houses of the Holy. That might also be because I like John Bonham's and Danny Carey's drumming styles too. I basically like things that go BOOM! :D