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!NOOBIES! Mixing Drums without samples (Simple Guideline)
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#151
7th October 2011
Old 7th October 2011
  #151
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beef is offline
for me its always different, but I always watch the low mids carefully.
#152
3rd November 2011
Old 3rd November 2011
  #152
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Firstly I wanna say awesome post. Heaps of usefull info for someone starting to experiment with drum tracking and mixing.
My ideal drum sound would have to b blood sugar sex magic. Amazing snare sound.
Which brings me to my question. Can any one shead some light on recording different types of drummers. For example I am a very hard hitting funk/metal influenced type of player. Think chad smith/lucas borich (with alot still to learn of course). Compared to a jazz influenced, session type guy who is more controlled and lighter, think carter beuford. compared again to mabye a blast metal drummer with kick beaters 10cm from the head, (all speed, no power or dynamics) think joey jordansen.
My understanding is they should all be miced and mixed quite differently.....
#153
3rd December 2011
Old 3rd December 2011
  #153
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Beauty post! Thanks for making me want to go track drums
#154
3rd December 2011
Old 3rd December 2011
  #154
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The duplicate/parallel processing on toms and snare works very well.

If you can get hold on a multi comp/expander like ReaXcomp or Waves C4 / C6 you can achieve the same result; l would say better result; it can be more transparent than gating, which you really don't have to do with this method, as you can clean up resonanences, bleed and spill and only have the important stuff happening on the attack/sustain of the shell.

It is hard to justify use of standard EQ when having access to such tools.
#155
28th December 2011
Old 28th December 2011
  #155
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If you're recording to a computer, a useful trick is to solo your over heads and with your daw's graphic eq search for resonant peaks by selecting a really narrow q and boosting the level a LOT. Typically, on most budget condensers you'll find it gets a little piercing above the 5k area... once you find a really dreadful peak, inverse the eq and you will be astounded at how good your 'el cheapo' mics can sound! Now, you can hit the compressor harder without it sounding crazily harsh.

plus a MILLION on tuning/heads though... sometimes the heads that sound great LIVE suck for recording. I don't particularly like fiberskyn heads for playing all the time, but MAN they record really well. And out of tune heads always sound bad-- when you're thinking 'why do the toms sound like cardboard?' chances are its the tuning...
#156
30th January 2012
Old 30th January 2012
  #156
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I ´ve never been an big fan of gates- guess it´s a matter of taste - but sometimes they are definitely necessary. Since I often struggled setting up the gates just right, I found a slightly different way to "gate" drums. Well, I don´t found out on my own and don´t take any credit for that, but read about it, maybe it was even here on gearslutz. I guess this is a well know trick for a lot of people, but I was very happy when I first read it, so maybe it help´s someone.

Anyway, what I do is, I duplicate the track I´ve got to treat, invert it, and than compress the hell out of the duplicated track with maximum ratio, the fastest possible attack and a fast release just at level with the bleeding sounds. That cancels out bleeding nearly complete. I than send both tracks to a new snare group and work with that as if it would be a normal snare track. By slightly lowering the level of the inverted track you can also use that method more like an downward expander and keep a little bit of background to taste.

I´m sure you can get similar or even better results with gates, but for me that trick tend to be more natural and organic sounding than what I get with gates.
#157
30th January 2012
Old 30th January 2012
  #157
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Lot of guys who don't like gates can give this a whirl. I usually stip silence my toms but I add the bleed as regions (there's a box to check in Cubase for this and I'm sure something equivalent in whatever DAW you use). When I've done this I have a channel of just the tom hits and another channel of the bleed. I do this with both my toms and take the bleed tracks and phase align them with everything and leave them up the middle. What I like about this is it doesn't goof up the imaging of the kit and keeps some of that washy sound intact. I usually smash a print of both the bleed tracks pretty hard and tuck it under the room mics. Don't know if anyone is doing this but it yields a cool sound.
#158
31st January 2012
Old 31st January 2012
  #158
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honestly, if you tune your drums well, and if the drummer knows that the kick and snare must always be the loudest parts of the kit, bleeding is not a problem, and gates/expanders are not really necessary, but still may be used with greater success.

If you are mic'ing your drums properly, and your kit is properly tuned, and you are having a bleeding problem, then you need to find a better drummer.

Without sounding disrespectful, the tricks mentioned above to combat bleed, are nothing but "patches" to fix poorly recorded drums or bad drummers, unless of course its meant to be used as an effect, then its ok....
#159
22nd February 2012
Old 22nd February 2012
  #159
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http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar10/articles/lips.htm

No good recent drum sounds?

Check out embryonic by the flaming lips.
Fake can be just as good by blonde redhead (actually everything they released)
Letting Off the Happiness-Bright Eyes
Deloused in the Commatorium-the mars volta(the playing more than recording)

I love that embryonic drum sound. Gotta try to get something mixing hi and lofi elements that sounds huge and dirty
#160
24th February 2012
Old 24th February 2012
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T.V. Eye View Post
I ´ve never been an big fan of gates- guess it´s a matter of taste - but sometimes they are definitely necessary. Since I often struggled setting up the gates just right, I found a slightly different way to "gate" drums. Well, I don´t found out on my own and don´t take any credit for that, but read about it, maybe it was even here on gearslutz. I guess this is a well know trick for a lot of people, but I was very happy when I first read it, so maybe it help´s someone.

Anyway, what I do is, I duplicate the track I´ve got to treat, invert it, and than compress the hell out of the duplicated track with maximum ratio, the fastest possible attack and a fast release just at level with the bleeding sounds. That cancels out bleeding nearly complete. I than send both tracks to a new snare group and work with that as if it would be a normal snare track. By slightly lowering the level of the inverted track you can also use that method more like an downward expander and keep a little bit of background to taste.
This works extremely well! Very transparent and easy to set up.

Thank you!
#161
29th February 2012
Old 29th February 2012
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cryptokoan View Post
Flaming Lips

No good recent drum sounds?

Check out embryonic by the flaming lips.
Fake can be just as good by blonde redhead (actually everything they released)
Letting Off the Happiness-Bright Eyes
Deloused in the Commatorium-the mars volta(the playing more than recording)

I love that embryonic drum sound. Gotta try to get something mixing hi and lofi elements that sounds huge and dirty
I happen to enjoy Embryonic as well, although the producer, Dave Fridmann is known for his 'sound bombing' technique to recording which involves hot signals and various kind of clipping at points. Embryonic as an album is probably the most pushed record I've heard him work on, my impression is they purposely toyed with digital and analog distortion on the album as an artistic statement. I could easily see people favoring/used to music before the real peak of the loudness wars not digging it much.

Fridmann is my favorite modern producer alongside Nigel Godrich. I'm more impressed with what he gets out of bands in terms of artistic value, arrangements, songcraft and the likes, but I also find he puts bands in their own unique sonic world on his records. MGMT's Oracular Spectacular and Tame Impala's Innerspeaker are probably my favorite things he has done. If you compare that MGMT album to their follow-up 'Congratulations', which they purposely did without him to try and prove that he wasn't all there was to the first record. I respect their decision and would never give Fridmann full credit for the first album, but the sonics from song to song on the first album were much more unique and distinctive, each song in its own world. The second album is more a steady sonic experience and missing some of the finer whittling in my opinion.

Mentioning Godrich.. I like everything he does with Radiohead. Before I was much into engineering and recording, In Rainbows was one of the first albums I heard where I thought, 'wow, this is very pristine sounding / great sonic engineering'. The straight-forward dry drum tones on that album are great.

More on topic of getting drum sounds, I read every post and am very grateful to all the advice here. As a musician and self-recording enthusiast, I always found I can get melody/harmony instruments to sound exactly as good as I want, its always the drums that limit the recordings because they are the most dependent on a good sounding room.

I also liked the post several back mentioning not everything needing a slew of microphones and this technique being used in some of contemporary independent music. In the issue of TapeOp where they interviewed the main man behind the Swedish neo-psychdelic band Dungen, I was very interested to hear they used hardly any microphones at all. Getting the primary kit sound by placing one or two microphones around the ear(s) of the drummer to basically approximate what you hear when you sit down playing the kit. They definitely are going for a sound and vibe that likens back to late 60s/early 70s.
#162
29th February 2012
Old 29th February 2012
  #162
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U dont need a expensive drumset, preamps, mics.....list goes on.

The drumset is where most people go wrong - why dont people tune their set?? we dont record an out of tune guitar!

Since many drummers dont tune their sets, it become an important skill for us engineers. I have worked with many engineers who dont know how to get good sounds from a drumkit - they say, this doesn`t work and reach for gaffa/moongel and calls it a day.

Every studio should have a backup drumset. how to get a good set great:

1. read the drumtuning bible and experiment with different tunings and drumskins, I like coated ambassador (have the bible in the studio)
2. give the bearing edge some oil, if they are out of their specs., let a drumdoctor fix it up (its impossible to tune with bad bearing edge)
3. get a Ludwig acrolite snare (cheap workhorse).
4. Some good Zildjian K`s or better some old A`s (I like larger cymbals).
#163
2nd March 2012
Old 2nd March 2012
  #163
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Yes to Dungen! I feel like tame impala pretty much got their entire sound on innerspeaker from a single Dungen song. But yes i feel that both of these have awesome drum sounds. We have very similar taste, in rainbows also kills it. The whole spectrum not just drums is unbelievable sounding. I like the way you describe songs as being in there own world. That is a feel me and my brother are going for now. At the same time these people do have the amazing gear at their disposal. But for dungen i feel that of course it is mostly the awesome drummer and an awesome drum kit. His cymbals are like beaches and his snare work so sensitive. We are recording drums in a 12x12 ft room with a 7 ft ceiling. Its tiny. We are experimenting with how much "stuff" we have in the room and every kind of mic placement. Got good sounds today!!
Peace
#164
3rd March 2012
Old 3rd March 2012
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beef View Post
U dont need a expensive drumset, preamps, mics.....list goes on.
It often helps (especially the room). These things you don't need are usually the difference between "good" and "great."

Quote:
Originally Posted by beef View Post
The drumset is where most people go wrong - why dont people tune their set?? we dont record an out of tune guitar!
Not tuning the kit is the difference between "good" and "garbage."

From this we can extrapolate:

Not tuning kit = invariably garbage
Tuning kit, running Spartan = somewhere near good
Whole enchilada = possibility of greatness herein

This assumes that the drummer knows what they are doing, otherwise it's all garbage. At that point you may as well not tune the kit just so things stay consistent. Heck, pull out the tin cans and string for giggles.
#165
6th March 2012
Old 6th March 2012
  #165
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Im not sure how anyone can even refer to someone who cant tune a kit as a drummer.
Ive picked up a few guitars and had a fiddle. That does not make me a gutairist!
Belive it or not there is alot of us out there who believe our craft (drumming) is an art that requires skill, disipline, patience, stammina, and technique to master. And we all strive to make our selfs sound as good as possible. This starts with the understanding of how a drum works, and how it is tuned in a variety of ways to produce different sounds!
Not having a stab @ anyone, just venting frustration @ the noobs that give us a bad name.
#166
7th March 2012
Old 7th March 2012
  #166
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great post. from an engineering perspective I agree with most everything Mr. Meeker said.

I will say this though, using samples is in NO WAY a cop out for the real deal here in 2012 IF you are a well practiced, well trained, passionate professional musician. it should start and END ALWAYS with the music and what is appropriate for it and how the artist wants to communicate to the listener. if that means you have the technology to make your snare sound like a dying cat and that is your goal.. then by all means.. DO IT.

what gets me is the inherent argument that a good real drum set played by a great player with killer mics and a great engineer in a great room is ALWAYS going to sound better then samples or triggering in the same situation (in context to non electronic music of course), and unfortunately that simply isn't the case any longer (modern computers and sampling programs CAN, and DO recreate EXACTLY the same amount of dynamics on a drumset if played properly as the real deal does).

I saw doom64 make a very relevant post stating that getting a killer drum sound with real drums would be great, but just isnt practical for him being in a small basement studio with "ok" drums recording bands for little to nothing. He then showed some examples, which from an example standpoint were excellent. from a music standpoint however...sorry to be the dick here.. but holy cow was that music BAD.

See, THAT is the problem. it's not SUPPOSED to be about getting the "perfect" drum tone, it's SUPPOSED to be about learning your craft, practicing for unending hours with your instrument, learning how to use it, learning how to play, then playing with other like minded musicians who LOVE what they do too THEN going into a studio and recording your well thought out, beautifully performed music. The reason everything sounds the same nowadays in the commercial music market with only a few exceptions is because too many "pro musicians" DONT learn their craft and then RELY on technology saving them from being crappy musicians, engineers and producers. It's NOT just because of technology, it's NOT JUST because everyone uses the same samples, it's because the person decided at some point in the recent past that "hey..I can afford a cheap drum set! yeh! now i'm definitely gonna be a rockstar, because i have a drum set!, and an m-audio sound interface!". doing music for fun is great, but i think the point of a post about getting great drum tones with REAL drums is lost on too many people nowadays. It sure seems to me that the "line" between what being a professional music person (engineer, musician, producer) is and what being a hobbyist is has blurred to the point that the majority of people don't see the difference anymore. I'm in no way calling out any individual here, but commenting about how samples are just as good as the real thing IS NOT a good argument if you say it because you only have two sm57s in an untreated basement with a cb percussion kit (sorry cb.. but you suck e), and it is your ONLY option to making something sound less than terrible in context e. If that's the case for you, honestly, you probably should be spending your time practicing so your 2 sm57's can eventually turn into recording professionally. Trying to learn how to do Calculus BEFORE you learn basic math is foolish. even if sometimes you can grasp an advanced concept without the basic skills.

Mr Meeker gave a BUNCH of great examples of some drum tones, i read many people talking about the police, and how they did the drums one track at a time for total isolation. i didnt really see the response that said how EVERY SINGLE ONE of the examples he linked were played by REAL, PROFESSIONAL, TRAINED, WORLD TRAVELED, MEDIA AWARE MUSICIANS. these people LIVE for music, like me. I'm not saying people should stop aiming for their goals, by all means.. if you have a goal of being the next john bonham...then get a vistalite kit, sit in a room for 6-12 hours a day, for A LONG time, preferably with a metronome click and get to work e. i hate to be the bearer of bad news though, but mediocrity, unless your last name is Kardashian, will NEVER get you to your goal unless you are starting the journey with a truckload of money. if your recording in your basement with 4 mics and you are trying to make a living doing that, and you didn't spend literally thousands of hours either self teaching through the internet, or going to a school so you can know WHY something sounds the way it does, you're probably NOT going to be successful. PRACTICE YOUR CRAFT. if you are trying to be a producer..learn how to find and acknowledge a GREAT band, if your trying to be an engineer, learn how to say "NO, im not going to engineer your shitty band, because no matter how great the "sound" is...your still a shitty band". "but Bubba, i read that the foo fighters recorded their last album in Dave Grohl's garage, with very little room tuning, and minimal technology, so see, you CAN get that great drum sound in your basement". STOP RIGHT THERE. Use your common sense. I could put a radioshack dynamic mic on a kit in a closet and you know what...if Taylor Hawkins was playing on it, it's gonna sound GREAT. you know what else..Dave Grohl is FREEKIN AWESOME, the guy is a historical figure for goodness sake, YOUR BAND ISNT GONNA SOUND LIKE THEM (I speak of quality, not style or genre) It's not that you CANT sound like them, or be at that level, but most "musicians" out there today are more interested in the fame, the money, than learning how to play an instrument through to a professional level so the people that hear it can be effected by it, and have an emotional response from the audience other than "whatever". there is no gate, no reverb, no plugin IN THE WORLD, other than maybe the program melodyne for the voice (and even that has limitations) that will make someone that is NOT GOOD, BE GOOD. The best possible sound 100 percent of the time, is having a great player, writer, producer and performer. ALWAYS start with solid, well played music, and you will be SHOCKED at how quickly you can go from having 4 mics in your basement, to recording some band with sold out world tours.

now that i went off on a tangent there lol, for the love of all that is dear to you, if you want to know how to get a great live drum "SOUND" taking away the performance and everything THE MOST IMPORTANT THING with a real kit is LEARN HOW TO TUNE IT. i mean, really really learn how. every single kit is different. Standing in the room to hear how well you tuned your floor tom really isnt gonna do it either, do a scrub take..listen...adjust. then WHILE RECORDING pay attention to changes that may be taking place so you can keep the kit tuned. i personally also use another person to go into the live room with a headphone talkback while i listen to him/her move the room mics around the room until i have found the "sweet" spots. that will make a HUGE difference. if your in the same room, scrub...listen...move room mics...repeat until you get the optimal sound. Also nuthin will piss off a rock drummer more than laying their awesome beat down, only for the take to be poop because the engineer wasnt paying attention to the fact that the snare head got too loose because the drummer did 10 dave lombardo style takes and the engineer didnt MAKE SURE the kit was still in tune. If you plan on being a pro music engineer with emphasis on drum engineering, you NEED to invest in a great drumset in its entirety. nowadays that unfortunately isnt cheap. even if you dont play drums. it is SOOO nice to be able to tell your client "i noticed you are using sunlight cymbals, can we swap those out for these sabian HHX's, or these paiste or zildjian avedis cymbals?".

I've personally switched over to the edrums running into a computer using a bunch of different virtual instruments, but in particular, i find the steven slate drums 4.0 to be outstanding, as well as the native instruments studio drummer apps. playing an ekit and having it sound JUST like a real kit IS possible but DOES have a drummer learning curve since most of the higher end edrums have much more of a "bounce" off the head than a real drum does. for me personally after about a month i now actually can play BETTER on an e kit than on a real kit. There is absolutely NO WAY you could tell i did not use a real drum kit in a blind test..NO WAY, with the VI's set up properly with VERY low latency going into the computer. plus you also have the added bonus of being able to use those weak ass 7a or 8a sticks on your drums without any effect on the sound, as long as you setup the ekit properly.
#167
9th March 2012
Old 9th March 2012
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Meeker View Post
It often helps (especially the room). These things you don't need are usually the difference between "good" and "great."



Not tuning the kit is the difference between "good" and "garbage."

From this we can extrapolate:

Not tuning kit = invariably garbage
Tuning kit, running Spartan = somewhere near good
Whole enchilada = possibility of greatness herein

This assumes that the drummer knows what they are doing, otherwise it's all garbage. At that point you may as well not tune the kit just so things stay consistent. Heck, pull out the tin cans and string for giggles.
I believe with this dude!
As a drummer you really need to know what are you doing so that you will not come up with a trash. hey i have something to share guys i found this website where you can share your work..check out the bulletin page twoseveneight.com for all the latest news in the industry or post industry happenings on the forum page!
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#168
29th March 2012
Old 29th March 2012
  #168
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Where is the love for Martin Birch?

Deep Purple -Machine Head
Black Sabbath- Mob Rules
Rainbow - Rising
Iron Maiden - Number of the Beast
Blue Oyster Cult - Fire of Unknown Origen

All Martin Birch

I guess it is hard to get bad drum sounds with Cozy Powell or Ian Pace playing though.
#169
29th March 2012
Old 29th March 2012
  #169
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I listed those albums to point out that those are awesome drum sounds. And done old school. I don't know for sure cause I wasn't there but I can't imagine that there was any drum replacement or triggering On those albums.
#170
29th March 2012
Old 29th March 2012
  #170
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I listed those albums to point out that those are awesome drum sounds. And done old school. I don't know for sure cause I wasn't there but I can't imagine that there was any drum replacement or triggering On those albums.

Also, I think that for a basement studio, an IR reverb is way more important than drum replacement. You can make diy bass traps out of 703 or diy tube traps for a few hundred dollars, which can take alot of the bad resonances out of the picture. Then you can mic the kit close and create the space later. And with a good IR like altiverb or waves IR L or IR 1 you can get a decent emulation of some life on your super dry drums.
#171
29th March 2012
Old 29th March 2012
  #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbiehouston View Post
Black Sabbath- Mob Rules
I always thought the kick drum on "Mob Rules" was tuned a bit too high. It doesn't ruin the album, overall it sounds/feels great all around. Roomy.
#172
25th April 2012
Old 25th April 2012
  #172
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now i just need to work on my speech to get the drummer to hit the drums really hard.
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#173
27th April 2012
Old 27th April 2012
  #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reccenterstudios View Post
now i just need to work on my speech to get the drummer to hit the drums really hard.
Mine went like this: "This isn't pitty-pat--stop hitting those drums like a girl. Your playing should be so loud I can't stand to be in the room with you."

It works. Except on girl drummers. Tell them they hit like Meg White and they'll perk up.
#174
28th April 2012
Old 28th April 2012
  #174
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Very good advice, I'm only 22 and have been building my experience in recording for the past 7 years and I have yet to use drum replacement. I'm glad that I haven't because it's given me time to learn almost everything you mentioned via trial and error. One thing I learned very recently that's worth mentioning, When you get a drum track recorded, do NOT instantly throw compressors on the tracks. Every fresh and dry drum track always sounds super quiet compared to the hot electric guitar tracks that were recorded with it, but instead of trying to bring the drums up without clipping, bring the guitars down. It's very important to get your mix sounding as good as possible without touching any effects processing, this will save you time and keep your tracks sounding natural. Afterall, it's a lot easier to bring everything down and put a master bus compressor on, than drastically changing the dynamic characteristics of every drum mic with a compressor (sometimes two) on each one. I've found that good playing technique can very often prevent any need for heavy processing.
#175
29th April 2012
Old 29th April 2012
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IVIaverick52 View Post
I've found that good playing technique can very often prevent any need for heavy processing.
But many of the best sounding albums were the result of "heavy processing." Ultimately, after one has gone back and forth looking for the magic bullet techniques that automatically produce good audio you are left with a simple realization:

Just make it sound good by any means necessary.
#176
30th April 2012
Old 30th April 2012
  #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Meeker View Post
But many of the best sounding albums were the result of "heavy processing." Ultimately, after one has gone back and forth looking for the magic bullet techniques that automatically produce good audio you are left with a simple realization:

Just make it sound good by any means necessary.
True, I'm just saying for newbies it can save you time to get the mix right before you worry about the plugins.
#177
4th May 2012
Old 4th May 2012
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IVIaverick52 View Post
True, I'm just saying for newbies it can save you time to get the mix right before you worry about the plugins.
By the nature of being a newbie they have no chance to get the mix right; they only have a chance to learn to do a better job in the future, in which case they won't be newbies any more.
#178
6th May 2012
Old 6th May 2012
  #178
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I've been recording drums for a few years now, I'm generally pretty happy with the results I get. Definately useable, considering I'm doing this in my basement with low to mid priced equipment. However, there are a couple of things that I keep trying to change/improve and would welcome any advice.
1. No matter where or how I place my overheads I always get way more cymbal than kit. I've heard some people's overhead tracks that capture a more balanced image of the kit. How?
2. To get a good level on my tom tracks I end up with so much of the rest of the kit, including cymbals, that it is just too much. Sometimes I can gate them but, most of the time, the gating just sounds annoying and unnatural. Any advice?
Real drums is the only way for me. I'm just not really into replacement with samples.
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#179
8th May 2012
Old 8th May 2012
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodreb View Post
1. No matter where or how I place my overheads I always get way more cymbal than kit. I've heard some people's overhead tracks that capture a more balanced image of the kit. How?
A.) Use a room with a higher ceiling and get the mics more like 36-48" off the kit.

B.) The player must mix themselves with their playing. Want less cymbals and more kit? Hit the drums harder and the cymbals softer.

C.) Use cymbals with less volume. Sabian AA Thin or AAX are pretty good solutions to this issue; Paiste Rude or Zildjian Z3 are probably poor choices.

D.) Use heavier sticks. While the overall volume goes up it is more pronounced on the snare/toms than the cymbals. However, it can make the HHat sound "mashy."

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodreb View Post
2. To get a good level on my tom tracks I end up with so much of the rest of the kit, including cymbals, that it is just too much. Sometimes I can gate them but, most of the time, the gating just sounds annoying and unnatural. Any advice?
Are you referring to bleed in the tom mics? I'm going to assume so.

A.) Position mics closer to toms. Point the "butt" of the mic (where it rejects sound the best) towards the closest cymbal.

B.) Chose microphones with hypercardiod patterns. The tighter the better.

C.) Sennheiser e609 or MD409 are low-cost, awesome solutions for reducing bleed on toms. Small and you can position them tight.

D.) Don't hard gate the toms. Set the release time and gate amount to be transparent. Fiddle with it--it can be done and made invisible in a mix.

E.) Pre-edit your tom tracks ahead of time to delete areas where they don't play. Toss a gate on top of this.

F.) Bottom mic the toms as well. Not only does it "thicken" the sound because of natural detuning between the heads but those mics are shielded a bit from bleed.

G.) Place foam/sound reflecting "shields" between the tom mics and rest of the kit.

Hope this helps,
#180
9th May 2012
Old 9th May 2012
  #180
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why is it generally advised not to use coated heads?
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