!NOOBIES! Mixing Drums without samples (Simple Guideline)
#31
14th September 2010
Old 14th September 2010
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jordanvoth View Post
441's are dandy. I got to use them on a session once and they were real nice. Why not a 421 over the floors? DW's are gorgeous.
Honestly, I got a great deal on the 441's. I bought one for 250 and the other is a Blackfire 541 I traded an old Laney amp for. I'd have went for the 421's but after I heard the 441 I was sold on their sound. My DW's are another story, I waited for 20 years to reward myself with a nice kit then starved for it. After playing on mediocre kits most of my life it was totally worth the diet. Ayotte makes some pretty beautiful sounding kits, Canadian too. I was looking at some but the DW's were just too pleasing to my ears to pass up. Well built too, every hole and cut is exact...not a thing vibrating that shouldn't be. I love having a great kit. It's really hard to make sound bad on a recording....my cymbals, well that's another story. Good post on those.
#32
14th September 2010
Old 14th September 2010
  #32
Toronto Maple Leafs fan
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surfspank View Post
Honestly, I got a great deal on the 441's. I bought one for 250 and the other is a Blackfire 541 I traded an old Laney amp for. I'd have went for the 421's but after I heard the 441 I was sold on their sound. My DW's are another story, I waited for 20 years to reward myself with a nice kit then starved for it. After playing on mediocre kits most of my life it was totally worth the diet. Ayotte makes some pretty beautiful sounding kits, Canadian too. I was looking at some but the DW's were just too pleasing to my ears to pass up. Well built too, every hole and cut is exact...not a thing vibrating that shouldn't be. I love having a great kit. It's really hard to make sound bad on a recording....my cymbals, well that's another story. Good post on those.
I feel like a spoiled brat now. I bought my Ayottes when I was 15. I skipped grad, take a bus, worked paper routes and many garbage jobs for them. Agreed, you gotta do something pretty dumb to make those kind of kits sound bad. Cymbals, you need more and then some. I love different ones. I play a hobo kit. 2 crash, ride, hat (12" mini sabian aax the ONLY sabian kit I haven't hated, again big drums small cymbals and they shine for that stuff), snare, kick and two toms. Good ride for the perfect bell/crash balance is the projection for Zildjian. Other than the famous royer 121 what do people favor for room mics?
#33
14th September 2010
Old 14th September 2010
  #33
441's are simply one of the best dynamic mics money can buy. It's my first choice kick and snare mic. Placement on snare can be a bit of a pain due to the long profile, but the off-axis rejection is superior and the HP filter curves and brightness usable (actually critical on snare IMHO).

Here's a little tip: if you really want to capture the "soul" of a mic always tap into its bonus features, like filters and curves.
#34
14th September 2010
Old 14th September 2010
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Meeker View Post

AC/DC, "You Shook Me All Night": Mutt Lange, 'nuff said. People forget that before he became the master of overproduction he did records straight up. Everything sounds great, drums are a clear departure from the 70's but not yet 80's. A perfect rock recording, unpretentious, blue collar, surly and a bit buzzed. Extremely natural sounding. Stereo separation on the cymbals is noteworthy for the time, definitely some clever production going on here.
YouTube - AC/DC -- You Shook Me All Night Long with lyrics
actually i think, Engineers Tony Platt, and Assistant Engineers Jack Newber, Benji Armbrister, and Mixing Engineer Brad Samuelsohn, might have had a bit more to do with the sound than Mutt did....


other than that great list, hope you and the wife are doing well!!!
#35
14th September 2010
Old 14th September 2010
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Meeker View Post
Saw them open for Metallica in Toledo, Ohio--September of 1988 on the Mindcrime tour. Saw them a second time for Empire in 1990 in Detroit, I believe in December or maybe January.

Good band, I just thought the kit was WAY too wet on Mindcrime. All the other records sounded acceptable to me.
I was mixing them at the Sports Arena (a really difficult sounding place) for the 1988 show you saw. In 1990 I was busy mixing Tesla, the excellent Brad Madix did that Detroit QR show, he has also been Rush's FOH engineer.
#36
14th September 2010
Old 14th September 2010
  #36
Gear nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Meeker View Post
I think that digital tools are great, very useful, but....

It's almost a moral crisis we are in. Too much faith in technology has eroded our belief in human ability. It's not just the music industry, but every endeavor that's been touched by rationalization. It reminds me what Erich Fromm wrote about the death instinct inherent in late stage capitalism as we shift orientation towards technology and uniformity.

I'm rebelling against all of that. I can't make a living making records how I think they should be made, so I'd rather just not make records. Besides, for the first time in years I'm actually enjoying music again not being surrounded by it.

Although dwarfed by today's technology and options, it's incredible what engineers and musicians accomplished using a fraction of tools we have now. There used to be such a breadth and character to music. I just don't hear it anymore. Music is a commodity, a product, something to be marketed to teens and sold with a price tag attached. It's a lifestyle option now. The art just seems drained out of it.

I tried, but I couldn't come up with one truly inspiring drum sound from the last decade. There's stuff that sounds good (most modern Green Day stuff done with Jerry Finn) and all, but it just seems like a "me too" production. Not standout. Not unique. Not taking risks.
What about Grace by Jeff Buckley? The drumsound on that one still amazes me.
#37
14th September 2010
Old 14th September 2010
  #37
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surfspank's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Meeker View Post
441's are simply one of the best dynamic mics money can buy. It's my first choice kick and snare mic. Placement on snare can be a bit of a pain due to the long profile, but the off-axis rejection is superior and the HP filter curves and brightness usable (actually critical on snare IMHO).

Here's a little tip: if you really want to capture the "soul" of a mic always tap into its bonus features, like filters and curves.
For some reason I can't bring myself to sticking them on either. What do you think could replace them on my toms? I really love them there and it would almost be a heartbreaking experience to move them elsewhere, but I'm open to messing around to see. I've had them up as overheads, moved them around my room, but never on the kick or snare. I have a kick mic that I'm really happy with that I haven't heard anybody mention ever trying here or anywhere. I've had it for 10 years, I might get cremated with it. They are still pretty cheap and vintage. I won't get into brand or naming the model because I want to get more...and maintain my individuality. My snare mic I can never seem to settle on, there's been very few that I haven't found some sort of workable sound out of. I have an odd first choice I tried on a whim. My Wife's Shure Beta 58. I was surprised at how much I liked what it added to my sound....I thought it would suck. Score yet another one for experimenting and deciding for yourself what is good and what isn't.

Beyersound, It nice reading your posts. I dusted off my copy of Psychotic Supper. I forgot how much I loved the Drumming on "Call it What You Want". Man, I love the dynamics of that song. I also saw Rush in Hamilton on the Roll the Bones tour. One of the two best live show sounds my ears have enjoyed. I still can't believe three Musicians put out that much sound. Blew my mind. A couple of years ago Tool played our local 5000 seat arena and tied them. Two experiences I'll never forget....thanks to awesome sound guys like yourself. Many thanks to you and your colleagues for changing the way I listen to live music. Great to hear you and your family are still getting fed. You've definitely earned it.
#38
15th September 2010
Old 15th September 2010
  #38
Quote:
Originally Posted by surfspank View Post
What do you think could replace them on my toms?
MD421's or U87's are both nice on toms.
#39
15th September 2010
Old 15th September 2010
  #39
Lives for gear
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surfspank View Post
Beyersound, It nice reading your posts. I dusted off my copy of Psychotic Supper. I forgot how much I loved the Drumming on "Call it What You Want". Man, I love the dynamics of that song. I also saw Rush in Hamilton on the Roll the Bones tour. One of the two best live show sounds my ears have enjoyed. I still can't believe three Musicians put out that much sound. Blew my mind. A couple of years ago Tool played our local 5000 seat arena and tied them. Two experiences I'll never forget....thanks to awesome sound guys like yourself. Many thanks to you and your colleagues for changing the way I listen to live music. Great to hear you and your family are still getting fed. You've definitely earned it.
Thanks, really nice to hear that. I always tried to capture the sound and vibe of the records I toured on (down the figuring out the effects they used, not always easy!), just bigger, or larger than life if you will. My inspiration as a live engineer was always the studio guys like Shipley, Clearmountain, and even some genuine encouragement and a bit of mentoring from Michael Barbiero who did the first 4 Tesla records (and mixed Appetite For Destruction as well!), he was really great. Capturing a great drum sound live was always a labor of love for me. Psychotic Supper was a great memory for me because I visited the guys at Bearsville (Woodstock is beautiful in the Spring/Summer!) while they were mixing it, and spent an evening with Frank and the assistant in that amazing Studio B SSL room sitting next to the console that Clearmountain and others mixed so many incredible records on!
#40
15th September 2010
Old 15th September 2010
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beyersound View Post
Thanks, really nice to hear that. I always tried to capture the sound and vibe of the records I toured on (down the figuring out the effects they used, not always easy!), just bigger, or larger than life if you will. My inspiration as a live engineer was always the studio guys like Shipley, Clearmountain, and even some genuine encouragement and a bit of mentoring from Michael Barbiero who did the first 4 Tesla records (and mixed Appetite For Destruction as well!), he was really great. Capturing a great drum sound live was always a labor of love for me. Psychotic Supper was a great memory for me because I visited the guys at Bearsville (Woodstock is beautiful in the Spring/Summer!) while they were mixing it, and spent an evening with Frank and the assistant in that amazing Studio B SSL room sitting next to the console that Clearmountain and others mixed so many incredible records on!
Had no idea. Ever since I've been reading posts in this forum and ran across yours from time to time I thought, "This guy sounds like he knows what he's talking about". So now I learn, you really do know what you're talking about. Thanks for the history...

Cheers!
Mitchell
#41
15th September 2010
Old 15th September 2010
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Meeker View Post
MD421's or U87's are both nice on toms.
421's are good, but the clips break and are expensive to replace, and you need the clips to mount them properly. Not to mention they have to be ordered where I live. Whereas I can always find something cheap that works for the shape of the 441.
I'd have to say U87's are one of those, "pay somebody who knows exactly what they are doing" mics. Better off paying a pro to deal with the handling, placing, storing, and care of those. I'm a Drummer after all...and would you trust me with a pair of U87's when I go through a set of headphones every other month? There's also good mixing advice that arises from this. Work with somebody who knows what they are doing a couple of times and be a sponge. Watch and learn, then use what you've absorbed to apply to your own technique. But then that's pretty much a standard with most things in life, we are great mimics after all.

Jordan, to add what you said about Sabian. I find most of their new stuff pretty crappy compared to the stuff they made early on (to build a customer base). If you can find some vintage stuff by them it's great. I like mostly vintage cymbals, all Canadian. My fave is an old A Zildjian ride I got for next to nothing.
#42
16th September 2010
Old 16th September 2010
  #42
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mhs2xs's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by surfspank View Post
421's are good, but the clips break and are expensive to replace, and you need the clips to mount them properly. Not to mention they have to be ordered where I live. Whereas I can always find something cheap that works for the shape of the 441.
I'd have to say U87's are one of those, "pay somebody who knows exactly what they are doing" mics. Better off paying a pro to deal with the handling, placing, storing, and care of those. I'm a Drummer after all...and would you trust me with a pair of U87's when I go through a set of headphones every other month? There's also good mixing advice that arises from this. Work with somebody who knows what they are doing a couple of times and be a sponge. Watch and learn, then use what you've absorbed to apply to your own technique. But then that's pretty much a standard with most things in life, we are great mimics after all.

Jordan, to add what you said about Sabian. I find most of their new stuff pretty crappy compared to the stuff they made early on (to build a customer base). If you can find some vintage stuff by them it's great. I like mostly vintage cymbals, all Canadian. My fave is an old A Zildjian ride I got for next to nothing.
I have a 20 year old set of Zildjian Quick Beats and I thought, "I'd like another set of those to have around". So I get a set, they're new, and thicker, and they sound just like a set of B8 hats I once had. Like an armored ass clanging on a saddle made of forged suck-steel. There's this ring going on that sounds like it's coming from the bell, even when fully chocked. Why do they feel the need to change what was always awesome and say "look what we did, we're keeping up with the times because we changed something". Change for change sake is the bread portion of a shit sandwich.

See what you did Surf? I was in a good mood and you had to get me started....

Cheers to ye, you grumpy damn drummer you.
Mitchell
#43
16th September 2010
Old 16th September 2010
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhs2xs View Post
I have a 20 year old set of Zildjian Quick Beats and I thought, "I'd like another set of those to have around". So I get a set, they're new, and thicker, and they sound just like a set of B8 hats I once had. Like an armored ass clanging on a saddle made of forged suck-steel. There's this ring going on that sounds like it's coming from the bell, even when fully chocked. Why do they feel the need to change what was always awesome and say "look what we did, we're keeping up with the times because we changed something". Change for change sake is the bread portion of a shit sandwich.

See what you did Surf? I was in a good mood and you had to get me started....

Cheers to ye, you grumpy damn drummer you.
Mitchell
Sorry Bro,
Didn't mean to get your walker all tied in a knot. There are plenty of good sounding cymbals out there to hit. We're lucky up here for vintage stuff, there used to be a very good cymbal factory in Canada. It was still pretty good for the first few years Sabian took it over. My ride is from the 60's and still in great shape. I can't say I expect 50 years out of anything I own that's "modern". That being said, your Paiste's look awesome. I just don't like the price tag....so I go vintage mostly and don't feel like I've sacrificed a thing sound wise by being frugal. Except, maybe the giant printed logo nobody's paying me to occupy my cymbals.

Gotta Run.....Matlock.
Dustin
#44
16th September 2010
Old 16th September 2010
  #44
Lives for gear
 
mhs2xs's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by surfspank View Post
Sorry Bro,
Didn't mean to get your walker all tied in a knot. There are plenty of good sounding cymbals out there to hit. We're lucky up here for vintage stuff, there used to be a very good cymbal factory in Canada. It was still pretty good for the first few years Sabian took it over. My ride is from the 60's and still in great shape. I can't say I expect 50 years out of anything I own that's "modern". That being said, your Paiste's look awesome. I just don't like the price tag....so I go vintage mostly and don't feel like I've sacrificed a thing sound wise by being frugal. Except, maybe the giant printed logo nobody's paying me to occupy my cymbals.

Gotta Run.....Matlock.
Dustin
Thanks...You're killing me. Yeah, I was spilling my prune juice all over the place when I read that! I have been buying the Alpha Series for a long time now. I lurk on eBay for when someone has a new or NOS one for 75-80 bucks and snag em. They had a BOGO deal at GC one time where I bought pretty much all they had. Don't care the the PST's, but they do sound better than most of the cheaper stuff to me. I have a tendancy to break them so, the better the price, the less I'm setting up in my back yard to punch .40 holes in. My Quick Beats are the oldest things that I've got that have survived my brutality or my gear syndrome....

Yak at ya later bro...

Cheers!
Mitchell
#45
13th October 2010
Old 13th October 2010
  #45
Gear addict
 
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This week I hit up my old collection and realized I love the drum sound on Faith No More - Angel Dust. I really think that album way ahead of it's time and very well done.
#46
13th October 2010
Old 13th October 2010
  #46
Toronto Maple Leafs fan
 
jordanvoth's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhs2xs View Post
I have a 20 year old set of Zildjian Quick Beats and I thought, "I'd like another set of those to have around". So I get a set, they're new, and thicker, and they sound just like a set of B8 hats I once had. Like an armored ass clanging on a saddle made of forged suck-steel. There's this ring going on that sounds like it's coming from the bell, even when fully chocked. Why do they feel the need to change what was always awesome and say "look what we did, we're keeping up with the times because we changed something". Change for change sake is the bread portion of a shit sandwich.

See what you did Surf? I was in a good mood and you had to get me started....

Cheers to ye, you grumpy damn drummer you.
Mitchell
I just did a session and we swapped the only sabians I've ever liked (my 12 aax minihats bright and very obnoxious and perfect for what I do) for Zildjian mastersounds, god do I need a pair. The hi hat sound has a weird effect on how I hear the kit. I know that may sound stupid but its real to my ears. Zildjian for everything else.
#47
18th November 2010
Old 18th November 2010
  #47
Gear addict
 
musimedia's Avatar
 

Why is this not a sticky?

#48
18th November 2010
Old 18th November 2010
  #48
Quote:
Originally Posted by surfspank View Post
This week I hit up my old collection and realized I love the drum sound on Faith No More - Angel Dust. I really think that album way ahead of it's time and very well done.
This was the first album I remember buying and thinking it was too loud and compressed. Good songs, not so happy about the production choices.
#49
19th November 2010
Old 19th November 2010
  #49
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m1a1x1e1r1's Avatar
 

I've always liked the way the drums sound on Ryan Adam's album, "Heartbreaker."

If I remember right, I believe Ethan Johns may have said a lot of the sound of the drums on that album come from the bleed into the vocal mic.

This whole album sounds stellar to me. Any info on how to get this sound would be appreciated, but I feel I know how to get this sound already: Hire Ethan Johns, his room, his drums, his gear. Also, write a really good song! Haha!
#50
19th November 2010
Old 19th November 2010
  #50
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m1a1x1e1r1's Avatar
 

The best results I've gotten on anything occur when I've recorded a good drummer who really knows the material. Sounds simple enough right? Also, having the opportunity to pick the proper drums and tuning remains paramount for me. Otherwise, it doesn't seem to matter what processing I apply when mixing. It just doesn't "fit" quite right later on... If I have to do a significant amount of processing to anything, the drums end up sounding flat and plastic to me even with expensive outboard gear.

Hit the nail on the head when saying "get the sound you want on the way in," or at least, get really close.
#51
25th November 2010
Old 25th November 2010
  #51
Gear interested
 

Bass Drum doesnt want to sit in the mix

Ok, i have been reading through this excellent forum for years and i still cant seem to grasp why my bass drum wont set in the mix. the band i am recording is alot like ISIS, where the bass guitar has alot of low end and the lead guitars also have alot of low end. all of which seem to really suffer when i cut the low end from one or the other trying to make room for the bass drum. the bass drum may have been recorded poorly as well but i can find the beater slap, and i can find the nice thump. but it is comletely lost in the loud parts of the song. compression issue? sidechain help? i am still quite a novice when it comes to recording and mixing but i feel like i have tried everything that these forums have told me including making pockets of eq for them to sit seperately, limiting, compressing, rrrr i just feel lost. any pointers would be a great help! Thanks for this forum and all the knowledge out there!
#52
25th November 2010
Old 25th November 2010
  #52
Toronto Maple Leafs fan
 
jordanvoth's Avatar
Try pulling out some of the low end on the guitars, vocals and other parts. send the kick and the bass to a group and compress it. Pull out some of the lows from the overheads.
#53
25th November 2010
Old 25th November 2010
  #53
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by team14 View Post
Ok, i have been reading through this excellent forum for years and i still cant seem to grasp why my bass drum wont set in the mix. the band i am recording is alot like ISIS, where the bass guitar has alot of low end and the lead guitars also have alot of low end. all of which seem to really suffer when i cut the low end from one or the other trying to make room for the bass drum. the bass drum may have been recorded poorly as well but i can find the beater slap, and i can find the nice thump. but it is comletely lost in the loud parts of the song. compression issue? sidechain help? i am still quite a novice when it comes to recording and mixing but i feel like i have tried everything that these forums have told me including making pockets of eq for them to sit seperately, limiting, compressing, rrrr i just feel lost. any pointers would be a great help! Thanks for this forum and all the knowledge out there!
Have you tried volume automation? Raising the kick in parts where it disappears? What about just bringing in more of the clicky part?

Anyway, I'm young. So listen to music that's at -0.1dB from beginning to end

My favorite drum sounds on any record is on Paramore's "Riot!"
I'd say, it's perfect.
Couldn't get into the last album because the drums were too replaced, and there was no sense of dynamics in the mix. (And the snare was too loud... boohoo) But yea. Perfect mix for me.
#54
25th November 2010
Old 25th November 2010
  #54
Gear interested
 

thanksgiving and still posting!

lol, thanks guys! didnt expect a quick response on holiday. i havent thought about volume automation. i guess i always assumed that mild compression would be the answer but that may just be the lazy in me. Here is a clue i may not know the answer to.........when i stand in the hallway all i can hear is heavy icky bass drum thuds, when sitting in fron of my speakers i cant hear it all. is it that my room sucks for low end perception? perhaps some bass traps on the wall behind where i listen? i suppose i should try listening to a good mastered cd and stand in the hall and see if there is still that problem and if so not worry about it. but listening to good cds i have no problem hearing the bass drum so i am assuming that it is my problem, not the room. hmmmm now im just venting since i have no one to talk about this with lol thanks guys. ill keep checking the forums for other bass drum answers. i just really need that low end to be tight for this group because i can ttell that is where most of the heart of their sound lies. what a challenge. i have restarted mixing three times, may just go ahead and start again. this time with the guitars first and then add in the drums to match. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
#55
25th November 2010
Old 25th November 2010
  #55
Gear interested
 

ohh, one more question.....would you want to send the bass drum with all the drums to a stereo aux that has compression and a stereo imager, or leave the bass drum on its own and centered, with no stereo imaging on it. right now i have the bass drum, bass guitar, and snare almost dead centered, but the bass drum is going through the stereo buss with all the drums and the aux track is panned out around 75% on each side. is that the problem?
#56
25th November 2010
Old 25th November 2010
  #56
3 + infractions, forum membership suspended.
sampling has as much to do with poor drumming as it does sonic lust. If the drummer sux you often need to sample, There is nothing an engineer can do to help inconsistent drumming except for massive processing and editing and/or sampling or combination thereof
sampling just makes it easier.

At the end of the day eq and compression can get you there without samples. Also many clients record without huge budgets, sampling is simply a quick fix that always works and saves the clients money if the drummer doesn't have the chops.

Bascially sampling has become popular to save time and help inconsistent playing. If every home studio had a great room with
loads of nice pres and mics with great drum kits played by great drummers.... no one would sample since micing up a kit in a great room with great gear with a great drummer playing..... is pretty mindless when it comes down to it
#57
26th November 2010
Old 26th November 2010
  #57
Quote:
Originally Posted by team14 View Post
...my bass drum wont set in the mix. ...the bass guitar has alot of low end and the lead guitars also have alot of low end. all of which seem to really suffer when i cut the low end from one or the other trying to make room for the bass drum.
First rule: it's a "kick drum", not a bass drum.

For those styes of music that have tons of low end on guitars/bass the best fix is to have a bright kick drum. Don't give it hardly any low end boost. It'll just muck things up. Listen to those types of records--there's hardly any low end on the kick, it's all compressed top end.

Chop some midrange out of the kick... 450hz is a good place. Try adding 6-8db at 10khz, and maybe some around 4-6.2 khz as well. Adding low end is just going to compound the problem.

And make the kick LOUD. The peaks of the kick should be a good 4-5 db over the wall of guitars/bass and other distorted and detuned stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by team14 View Post
the bass drum may have been recorded poorly as well but i can find the beater slap, and i can find the nice thump. but it is comletely lost in the loud parts of the song.
You don't know if the kick was recorded poorly? Fail.

Since you are having trouble with it I'll save you the guess work--it was recorded poorly. Time to sample replace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by team14 View Post
compression issue? sidechain help?
None of that will help if it's poorly recorded and/or played. See above.
#58
26th November 2010
Old 26th November 2010
  #58
Gear interested
 

excellent!

thanks for that! I believe listening to the "kick" i let in too much of the overtone frequencies that should have been muffled by something. he is using an Evans Emad and though tight and punchy, i believe i had too much faith in the dampening ring to control those and let it slip through me. hmmmmm pretty sure i wont need to sample, there will be a way to make it right. just gonna have to be a bit creative
#59
26th November 2010
Old 26th November 2010
  #59
Quote:
Originally Posted by team14 View Post
thanks for that! I believe listening to the "kick" i let in too much of the overtone frequencies that should have been muffled by something. he is using an Evans Emad and though tight and punchy, i believe i had too much faith in the dampening ring to control those and let it slip through me. hmmmmm pretty sure i wont need to sample, there will be a way to make it right. just gonna have to be a bit creative
Gate that sucker.
#60
26th November 2010
Old 26th November 2010
  #60
Gear addict
 
rodreb's Avatar
 

James,
Good to see you're still around and still in top form! Spot on, as always.

Michael, I believe I owe you a PM. It's been very busy here, forgive my tardiness.
Overall, LOTS of great info in this thread. Thanks guys.
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