Master two-track in Pro Tools

[caryhorner]

Hey Slutz, I tried to find a thread on my question but I couldn't. I know this has been discussed though.

When I'm creating a master 2 track in Pro Tools, I bounce everything down to 2 tracks IN Pro Tools via bussing. I don't use the bounce to disk option. My question is, where do I go from there? I'm recording at 24 bit 88.2k and I need to dither down to 16/44.1. Does Pro Tools have a dither down option that is independent of the Bounce to Disk option? Is there a way to export my master stereo track so I can import it to other mastering software to do the dithering? I guess I could just look for the file on the computer, but I was hoping PT could take care of this for me.

And on that note, does anyone recommend any good mastering software for Windows? My friends have used Wavelab. That seems pretty good.

Cary

[Myr]

There is an AudioSuite dither, if I'm not mistaken. Otherwise, just let the mastering engineer do the dithering.

[caryhorner]

Hey. I am the mastering engineer! Seriously, we're trying to do it all ourselves and I'm not making anything off these mixes right now (although it'll make a nice resume for potential clients, and my mixes are rawkin' right now).

I'm recording a friend's project and he owns the house where I've got my studio, so it's a nice trade off. I get to play with my toys in a semi-proper studio setting (band in the shed, control room in the house, snake in the grass ), and he gets his songs recorded. So, there's no real mastering engineer involved. But I know what you're saying.

I'll check around for the AudioSuite dither option. But what about other mastering software? Is that a better option or should I trust Pro Tools?

Cary

[BLUElightCory]

I usually record the mix to a stereo track (as you have done) and then bounce the mix to whichever format is necessary.

[CJ Mastering]

Dithering should only be applied at the very last stage of the mix, when your going form a higher bit depth, to a lower bit depth. Like going form 24bit to 16bit.
You do not dither when you go from a lower bit depth to a higher bit depth. You only need to dither when going down in bit depths. So, if you go from 24bit to 32bit floating point, you do not need to dither.
Cj

[Eric Pederson]

I think there might be some audio myths with regards to the Pro Tools bounce.. I remember some tomfoolery "bouncing around" my recording school at one time.

May I ask why are you avoiding the Pro Tools bounce?

[CJ Mastering]

Like some urban legend..LOL

To the original poster, Im sure there is nothing wrong with the way pro tools renders your audio
Cj

[glenn Taylor]

yea really wwhy not try bounce to disk. save at the same rate or bounce has options on it like stereo interlink. I usually label the bounces so I can find them easy AAA (song tile) BNC 1. usually mix to a separate 2 track computer with Wavelab abd CD architect.. Wavelab can convert files sample rate.
GT

[caryhorner]

You guys wouldn't believe how much information I lose when I bounce to disk! The difference is night and day. Now I realize that I am going from hi-res to low-res but I really don't believe I should get such drastic differences in my mix.

But, the real reason I avoid the bounce to disk is because of the way Pro Tools handles it's bounces. I don't remember the specifics from the article I read (which was in a magazine I also can't remember, go figure) but basically it's design has a tendency to create lots of errors in the process. The recommendation was to buss your mix to two tracks internally and work from there. I'll try to search for the article online. I think it was in the magazine "Music Computers" or something. This was a few years ago. I'm still on PT 7.4, which is what they were referring to, I believe.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by caryhorner

You guys wouldn't believe how much information I lose when I bounce to disk! The difference is night and day. Now I realize that I am going from hi-res to low-res but I really don't believe I should get such drastic differences in my mix.

But, the real reason I avoid the bounce to disk is because of the way Pro Tools handles it's bounces. I don't remember the specifics from the article I read (which was in a magazine I also can't remember, go figure) but basically it's design has a tendency to create lots of errors in the process. The recommendation was to buss your mix to two tracks internally and work from there. I'll try to search for the article online. I think it was in the magazine "Music Computers" or something. This was a few years ago. I'm still on PT 7.4, which is what they were referring to, I believe.

I've been reading this contention on and off through the better part of this decade and, while I've heard of people performing null tests that they felt showed identical results from the two different rendering processes, I've yet to see any convincing, hard evidence of the supposed problem from 'the other side.' Mind you, I'm not saying it doesn't exist (I'm maybe on the skeptical side of agnostic), but if it was really a problem, I'd think there would be a better developed consensus and some clear, objective evidence of the problem.

Remembering reading something somewhere once rises to the level of tantalizing, perhaps, for the rememberer.

But it's not really convincing evidence to us interested bystanders. [And I'll just leave snarky comments about the magazines Computer Music, Future Music, etc, to others. ]

[Eric Pederson]

I really dont know for a fact if the Pro Tools bounce is lossless or not, but lets try to wrap our heads around HOW you would do this.

Would the OP need to buy some sort of stand alone digital recorder with support for changing bit depth? Could this recording be done using digital connections? (what interface are you using by the way?)

Is there a software way for him to do this with his files?

[caryhorner]

Eric, if you're patching digitally within your interface, you're still slaved to the master clock of your device so you wouldn't be able to play back the recording at 24/88.2 and simultaneously record at 16/44.1 in the same box, unless your interface miraculously had two independent, port assignable clocks (not a bad idea really, but would it be good for anything else?!).

I currently interface PT with a Delta 1010 but as soon as I get the cash for a Focusrite ISA 428 I'll take the 1010 out of the chain and make my ProFire 2626 the main interface. I currently don't use the ProFire except for mic pres and outputs to go outboard before going into PT (it doesn't have inserts ). When I get the Focusrite though, I'll have the 4 pres plus the 4 extra inputs for my other outboard pres flying S/MUX into PT with extra ProFire pres if need be.

I think ultimately, some form of mastering software is my solution, but what softwares are out there for this purpose? I know of Wavelab, the former SoundForge (whatever Sony calls it now) and Peak, but Peak is Mac only I believe. Is there anything else? Surely there's more...

Cary

[djgizmo]

Originally Posted by caryhorner

Hey Slutz, I tried to find a thread on my question but I couldn't. I know this has been discussed though.

When I'm creating a master 2 track in Pro Tools, I bounce everything down to 2 tracks IN Pro Tools via bussing.

Do you mean a single stereo track, 2 stereo tracks or 2 mono tracks?

Personally, I record to disk as well, but its for work flow reasons.

My question is, where do I go from there? I'm recording at 24 bit 88.2k and I need to dither down to 16/44.1. Does Pro Tools have a dither down option that is independent of the Bounce to Disk option?

yes, Pro Tools dithers upon export. (PC - Ctrl+Shift+K if memory serves correct).

Is there a way to export my master stereo track so I can import it to other mastering software to do the dithering?

Yes, export the region (as mentioned above, but don't change your bit depth. No change of bit depth means no dithering done in PT.

does anyone recommend any good mastering software for Windows? My friends have used Wavelab. That seems pretty good.

Well, personally, if you're trying to do this in house with very little money invested, I'd recommend using Pro Tools for playing around with it (Even though this won't help with frequency phase shift issues). 2nd best option I would recommend is T-Racks 3 Deluxe from IK multimedia.

You can use it as plugins within PT or as a separate app. It includes Linear compressor and a Linear EQ (which controls frequency phase shifting)

PSP Audio Ware has a nice Linear Phase EQ plugin called the Neon HR, which also allows separate processing of MS as well.

Not a lot of linear phase multiband compressors out there besides the L3 package from Waves. The Ozone 4 maybe, but I'm not a fan of the sound.

Let me know if you have any more questions.

[rns900]

You can use Powr dither on the last insert on your stereo master fader. Create a stereo audio track. Bus the output of the master fader to the input of the stereo audio track. Record enable that audio track and record your mix. Select the new region and you can export the region. I think thats what your trying to do.

[Piedpiper]

If your exporting it to master it in another program, you don't want to reduce the resolution anyway. Keep it whatever resolution the original session is in until you bounce it down to CD redbook rez. Any mastering processing should be done at the highest rez.

[caryhorner]

I'm sorry. My words have been misleading. I have since realized that in my OP I incorrectly used the term "dither", although the dither discussion has helped me learn more about it, thanks guys. What I meant to say was "Does PT have sample rate/bit conversion independent of the bounce to disk option?". Forget the dither for right now. And since formerly basic audio editing softwares now double as mastering packages, my use of the term "Mastering Software" just lead the discussion right down the eq/comp aisle. I've actually got the Master X3 in my Powercore, which is pretty good.

What I'm needing is just a good way to get a 24/88.2 mix down to two tracks of 16/44.1, bussing to two tracks and NOT using PT's bounce to disk option. I was hoping I could do that in PT as well, but if I have to fly in audio editing software to do that I can. It seems to me that you can only do sample rate/bit conversions in PT when you're bouncing to disk. Is that correct?

Djgizmo, I'm bussing my final mix to one stereo track, which presumably creates one interleaved stereo file on my computer, right? Ultimately I would think that this is the best option, since that's where the audio will end up anyway. But I guess if I'm going to master some more at that point, I probably should do it as two independent tracks and then sum them to one file. Whose got their $.02 on that?

I'll try out the export option next time I'm at the studio to see how it works. Sounds simple enough anyway.

[rns900]

Now that I think about it...if you record to an audio track even after the dither on the master fader the region would still be 24bit since thats what the session is in. Why don't you want to use bounce to disk?

[Eric Pederson]

And we come full circle lol. Help this dude do whats hes trying to do (if its doable) tutt

"24/88.2 mix down to two tracks of 16/44.1, bussing to two tracks and NOT using PT's bounce to disk option"

[Eric Pederson]

Originally Posted by caryhorner

Eric, if you're patching digitally within your interface, you're still slaved to the master clock of your device so you wouldn't be able to play back the recording at 24/88.2 and simultaneously record at 16/44.1 in the same box,

I was thinking you would be doing this into an external device. Just like some would print their mix into a external CDR recorder, but your recorder would have to be changing sample rate/bit depth. Thats why I suggested a digital audio transfer might be necessary?

Just a thought...

[Purple]

Originally Posted by caryhorner

I'm bussing my final mix to one stereo track, which presumably creates one interleaved stereo file on my computer, right?

Negative - PT always makes separate left and right files for any stereo tracks.

Record your mix to a stereo track, then make all of your other tracks inactive and bounce-to-disk your raw stereo track, with the addition of a dither on it, with the bounce settings as 44.1KHz, 16-bit (tweakhead setting).

I have never noticed a "night and day" difference between bounce-to-disk and record-to-disk, but even if there is a difference, doing it this way Pro Tools doesn't have to worry about plugins, VI's, etc when it is doing the bounce. Just dither and sample rate.

[Tim Ragnur]

djgizmo allready adviced you: after recording down on a track, just export audio as interleaved stereo 16bit/44.1k.
Done.

[jaketanner]

...I work this way all the time with excellent results. Busing internally is the way to go, PLUS the added bonus that if something is not right, you can just punch in, then consolidate and don't have to start from the beginning, or you can automate on the fly while bouncing.

EXPORT region, let PT do the rest. However, DON'T master from a 16bit file.

Good luck!

[scottwilson]

Originally Posted by jaketanner

PLUS the added bonus that if something is not right, you can just punch in, then consolidate and don't have to start from the beginning

I hear all the time that this is a great reason for bussing rather than bouncing and to all of those folks: I hope you aren't using any time based effects whatsoever. Obviously delay and reverb are problems, but even compression needs to 'hear' that last second of audio to be in the right place at the edit point.

It's nice to know that your time is worth so much that you can't be bothered to render the entire track at once cause you screwed something up!

s

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by scottwilson

I hear all the time that this is a great reason for bussing rather than bouncing and to all of those folks: I hope you aren't using any time based effects whatsoever. Obviously delay and reverb are problems, but even compression needs to 'hear' that last second of audio to be in the right place at the edit point.

It's nice to know that your time is worth so much that you can't be bothered to render the entire track at once cause you screwed something up!

s

Ever do post? Bouncing a radio play from an hour ago for one little change gets dull quickly.

[djgizmo]

Originally Posted by Eric Pederson

And we come full circle lol. Help this dude do whats hes trying to do (if its doable) tutt

"24/88.2 mix down to two tracks of 16/44.1, bussing to two tracks and NOT using PT's bounce to disk option"

Record to track... THEN EXPORT. Select your Sample Rate & Bit Depth... and DONE. PT ALWAYS dithers (by default install) upon exporting regions when selecting a different sample rate/bit depth.

[djgizmo]

Originally Posted by jaketanner

However, DON'T master from a 16bit file.

Agreed.
It CAN be done, but shouldn't be done due to increased subharmonic noise floor after dithering.

If one is going to master, master at 24bit, dither, and then export.

Personally, OP, I recommend you record to track, rename your region, export it as a 88.2/24bit file (this way you'll always have a 88.2/24bit wav/aif mixdown of your mix w/o having to re-open your session). Create a new session specifically for mastering, import that 24bit file, process to taste, then record to track again, rename the region and export at the final 44.1/16bit. In your case, you're probably going to want to keep Tracking/Mixing separate from mastering. As you're new to mastering, you'll be tempted to go back and tinker with what you already set in the mix if you try to work on the master all in the same session. Good luck!

If you would like me to give a opportunity at mastering it, let me know via PM and I'll see if I have any magic for you.

[caryhorner]

Originally Posted by djgizmo

Record to track... THEN EXPORT. Select your Sample Rate & Bit Depth... and DONE. PT ALWAYS dithers (by default install) upon exporting regions when selecting a different sample rate/bit depth.

This is GREAT! Thanks for that information. I'm going to try that today when I mix.

Originally Posted by djgizmo

Personally, OP, I recommend you record to track, rename your region, export it as a 88.2/24bit file (this way you'll always have a 88.2/24bit wav/aif mixdown of your mix w/o having to re-open your session). Create a new session specifically for mastering, import that 24bit file, process to taste, then record to track again, rename the region and export at the final 44.1/16bit. In your case, you're probably going to want to keep Tracking/Mixing separate from mastering. As you're new to mastering, you'll be tempted to go back and tinker with what you already set in the mix if you try to work on the master all in the same session. Good luck!

If you would like me to give a opportunity at mastering it, let me know via PM and I'll see if I have any magic for you.

You know, I was kind of thinking of doing something like this. I think I'm actually going to set up one file, put all the final mixes for this record in there, and master it all together. It seems like a good way to stay organized and keeping things consistent. If I think I need some mastering advice, I'll hit you up. Thanks for that.

And to everyone else, thanks for all the feedback. My misleading words have turned into a great discussion about mastering digitally and I'm loving the feedback. This is a great board!