influence of cables on audioperformance

[gizeh12]

Ive antacipated in some topic on some forum about audio cables. A guy stated that he can hear a big difference in audio quality between cheaper cables and more expensive cables. What do yall think===

[orange]

this issue comes up all the time. Everybody has an opinion on this...here's mine.

High end cables are snake oil. If the cable meets all the basic electrical requirements (decent shielding - low resistance/capacitance - low handling noise - correct current rating - mechanical strength etc etc etc). Then it should work fine. I've never seen any of this stuff pass a decent 'double blind' listening test. Additionally its unlikely that you'll see any of the big studios using the esoteric stuff - they too, know better.

I've seen hilarious claims over the years made for cable by companies that should know better. That's not to say that there isn't some cheap AND crap cable out there.

If you can hear a difference, then fine spend the extra cash and sleep easy, I prefer to spend the money on something useful.

PS - compare and contrast this to the Big Ben debate that is still running after a year !!!

[Ethan Winer]

> High end cables are snake oil. If the cable meets all the basic electrical requirements ... <

I second that. There are so many MUCH weaker links to worry about, it's amazing to see people obsess over, er, wire.

--Ethan

[JonCraig]

i'd have to say i agree with orange. there seem to be three types of cable:

1) cheapo crap cable. this stuff is high capacitance, breaks, etc. etc.

2) good cable. low capacitance, resistance, tough, etc.

3) good cable that you pay lots of money for. same quality as #2, but the company has spent $100,000 on marketing the bullshit idea that their dialectric focuses the electrons to minimize phase interference up to 100kHz, giving you unparalled blah blah blah.

---

here's another way to look at it. say you're interfacing an SSL & ProTools (just as an example). the audio paths on the SSL are copper pcb's. the audio paths (after the converters, of course... we don't care what the ones & zeros do (although, tell that to the guy that bought a $100 AES cable...)) anyway... PT interface audio traces are copper PCB. you think either of those companies are spending $2 per foot for "high quality linear copper" or anything of the sort? weakest link in the chain and all that bit.

but... here's the real test. get one of those audiophile shops to send you a couple feet of cable (understanding that you will return it if you don't hear a difference), and try it out! if you hear a difference, keep it, and invite me & orange over to hear the A/B/X comparison. We'll bring the beer!

--jon

[gizeh12]

in wich category is SSnake, Yellow Cable DAP-audio???

[gizeh12]

Thanx for the input till so far

Are there any poeple who experienced loss of audio quality because of cables???

Can anyone give some more input on this one???

[bunnerabb]

I've had crap cables pull some of the definition a good chain.

Actually, if you can, just put some Mogami on everything and you'll be fine.

[popmann]

yeah...cheap cables got to go.

Wanna make a mic essey when it's not? Connect it up with generic store brand or Hosa mic cables. To any preamp you want.

I've got Monster and Mogami around...6 of one....half dozen of another...couldn't tell them apart.

[69 Sound]

I know alot of people may scoff at this idea, but I think Hosa cable get's a bit of a bad rap...

Now before any one screams heresy... Hear me out and give this a try.

No it's not mogami, monster, canare, etc BUT I have found the biggest problem with Hosa cables and snakes is the cheap molded connectors they use.

Since I'm sure most of you have atleast one or two Hosa cables lying around (and who doesn't) What I suggest trying is to change out the cheap molded connectors to something decent like neutrik or switchcraft and then listen again.

I'll bet money you will hear a difference.

I probably wouldn't believe this myself, but I experienced this very situation a few years back when I needed to do a quick fix at a friends studio which was wired with Hosa cables and snakes.

As always YMMV

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by 69 Sound

Since I'm sure most of you have atleast one or two Hosa cables lying around (and who doesn't) What I suggest trying is to change out the cheap molded connectors to something decent like neutrik or switchcraft and then listen again.

I'll bet money you will hear a difference.

Arguably, if both cables are working, and you level match the output of the 2 cables under test, and then (most importantly) test blind so you are not aware of which is which when you're auditioning them, the likelihood of you collecting that money should go WAY down.

The whole notion of "cable sound" fascinates me, in an almost perverse way. I read lots of testimonies from so-called audiophiles who swear there are dramatic differences between this wire and that...or this connector and that...or this dialectric and that...or this direction of twist and that. "Even my wife could hear the difference!"

And then I read a good bit of the scientific literature, not just on electrical properties (which hopefully everyone reading this forum has a passing familiarity with) but also on cognitive studies, nueropsychology, the process of perception, etc. Your brain is a wicked powerful mojo machine; if it "knows" it's listening to $2,000/foot speaker cables versus Home Depot 14awg lamp cord, it will manufacture a preference that has nothing to do with what you're actually "hearing." So I'm a staunch believer that non-blinded listening tests are potentially (if not always) fraught with error. On the other hand, I've done some informal non-blind listening tests between cable types and it sure as hell SEEMS as if there's an audible difference! And then you start to wonder, "well, crap, I wasn't blind when I tested the U-87 versus the C-800G on Ms. Thing in that vocal session last night and we all heard the difference...was that our brain playing tricks on us too?"

(Short answer: maybe.)

It's enough to make you doubt your every instinct!

So, despite my perverse fascination with "cable sound" and despite the fact that I never miss an opportunity to mention that non-blind non-level matched audio tests aren't reliable, I have *NEVER* participated in a blind level matched audio test for cables. 'Cuz who's got the time? I chose cables based on reliability, period. Good wire by Canare, Mogami, or Belden, good connectors by Switchcraft or Neutrik, badda-boom, badda-bing, end of story. Does one sound better than the other? Who cares?!?!?!

However, if you *do* honestly believe there is an audible difference between cables, a difference that you could easily identify under level matched double-blind conditions, there are some diehards over on rec.audio.high-end who have amassed a pot of some $10,000US that they claim can be yours. You only have to demonstrate this alleged ability. I'd love to see someone walk away with their money, but I don't have a lot of confidence that anyone's gonna do so any time soon.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by 69 Sound

No it's not mogami, monster, canare, etc BUT I have found the biggest problem with Hosa cables and snakes is the cheap molded connectors they use.

But that is a big problem. They will fail on you at the worst possible moment.

Hosa cables sound the same as anything else, when they work!

[69 Sound]

Bob,

I believe we are probably both in agreement about the relative "sound" differences among various brands of cable. I fully agree that most people (myself included) in a double blind level matched test such as you have mentioned would be truly hard pressed to hear any difference or be able to identify brand X from Y.

The intention of my post was actually to point out that although Hosa is not the best cable out there, I do believe they get somewhat of a bad rap and are not anywhere near as bad as some may suggest.

That said... I do still believe that by swapping out the cheap molded Hosa connectors for something better like Neutrik or Switchcraft you can hear an audible difference. This might simply be attributed (if for no other reason) that you will be getting a more positive contact point on a soldered connection vs a pressed connection hence there is less resistance for the signal to pass through.

Regards,

Chris

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by 69 Sound

I do still believe that by swapping out the cheap molded Hosa connectors for something better like Neutrik or Switchcraft you can hear an audible difference.

Your confidence is admirable, Chris. Step on up and collect $10,000.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...c489340e08f31a

(that might not be the best example of the rec.audio-high-end "cable sound challenge", but it was the first reference to it I could find. A Google search will come up with dozens more.)

[69 Sound]

Originally Posted by Bob Ross

Your confidence is admirable, Chris. Step on up and collect $10,000.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...c489340e08f31a

(that might not be the best example of the rec.audio-high-end "cable sound challenge", but it was the first reference to it I could find. A Google search will come up with dozens more.)

The listening challenges are interesting, although I highly doubt that anyone would ever be able to collect.

In my personal experience our ears acclimate much to quickly to the room and surroundings hence any minute differences simply are not heard after a very short period. I know I've experienced this myself when participating in any listening test that went beyond a very brief period.

Regards,

Chris

[tINY]

Take the snake oil back to the High End forum....

There is an audible difference between cables when you use equipment designed 50 years ago without low-impedance outputs, high impedance inputs, and widespread use of negative feedback.

So, if you are hooking up an Al-Ni-Co moving magnet cartridge to a tube pre-amp with tranformer coupled output to a low wattage class A tube amp with a low damping factor - then try listening to different cables. The ones that work best in that set-up aren't the "better" cables in a general sense, they just compensate for the particulars of your set-up in a way that you like.

If you are wiring up a modern studio - get something with the charateristics that are appropriate (if you have a 500' mic run, you may need special cable).

I understand the tweeky old-school bug. I have a clock in my living room with weights on strings and a sliding weight on a pendulum that I have to wind every 36 hours....

I set it using the clock on my cell phone.




-tINY

[tINY]

Barry,

I don't mean to insult anyone, but high end cables have no place in modern recording - especially in the low-cost, best value for your money arena.

Re-read my post. There once was a reason for expensive cable design - but most of us aren't using that kind of equipment any more...

If you can hear the differences - go get the $10k.



-tINY