2 on 1 - the best way to mic acoustic?

[tigerflystudio]

Just joined, 2nd question already (I've been saving them up, ha ha ha...) Basically, I want to record my electro acoustic guitar with as full a sound as possible. I pick & strum moderate alt-country / folk / blues. The only mics I have at my disposal are 1) Shure SM58 Beta (dynamic), and, 2) Rode NT2 (condensor). So, which mic shall I use, and where's the best place to position them? Shall I also D.I. the guitar to multi-track and mix a bit of that in, too? Or is it best to just use the mic recordings? Help / advice / thoughts appreciated.

[MrCrowbar]

Originally Posted by tigerflystudio

Just joined, 2nd question already (I've been saving them up, ha ha ha...) Basically, I want to record my electro acoustic guitar with as full a sound as possible. I pick & strum moderate alt-country / folk / blues. The only mics I have at my disposal are 1) Shure SM58 Beta (dynamic), and, 2) Rode NT2 (condensor). So, which mic shall I use, and where's the best place to position them? Shall I also D.I. the guitar to multi-track and mix a bit of that in, too? Or is it best to just use the mic recordings? Help / advice / thoughts appreciated.

Try M/S recording. It can sound amazing for acoustic guitar and I got great results with an SM58 and a CAD M179 (large multi-pattern condenser): unscrew the basket of the SM58 and use the NT2a in figure-of-8 mode so that the front of the mic points to the neck and the back of the mic to the bridge. Use a mid/side matrix plugin or do it by hand (simple track copying and panning) and you got a damn good guitar sound.

[chuchurocka]

i'd take the the 58 ( minus windscreen ) at the soundhole and place the Rode at the players ear or at the nut pointed down the fret board. 58 stays centered and the other mic can be duplicated and panned hard for some interesting stereo effects. Or pan the 58 off center left and the other mic off center right for a rich spread. YMMV

[KRStudio]

+1 for m/s.

[Eric Pederson]

Not really a technique, but I like to point a dynamic mic at the lower "bout" of the acoustic guitar, about 3/4 of the way from the soundhole to the edge of the guitar. It gives me a balance between picking sounds and overall body of the guitar.

I like the M/S idea the best so far.

[theblue1]

M/S can be good.

Some folks like two mics. I kind of like one (especially if the guitar will be used in a mix with other instruments). In fact, I typically use one mic for guitar and vocal. But then I'm lazy.

I strongly recommend you experiment with all the techniques at your disposal, even tracking with all three onto separate channels (if you have enough AD inputs) and experimenting in the mix. (Mind you, I, personally, don't care for the sound of most acoustic guitar pickups. But it's a big world and others have different approaches and preferences.)

[Disjointed]

since you say its electro-acoustic..

lately, ive been recording an acoustic artist with a ribbon on the instrument (aimed to about the 12th fret, to balance bass boom) and another on his amp in an iso booth (sometimes a sm7)

the ribbon gives a nice round tone, and the sm7 gives great attack.

similar results could be had with your nt2 and beta 58


gl!

[Yetti]

Originally Posted by tigerflystudio

Just joined, 2nd question already (I've been saving them up, ha ha ha...) Basically, I want to record my electro acoustic guitar with as full a sound as possible. I pick & strum moderate alt-country / folk / blues. The only mics I have at my disposal are 1) Shure SM58 Beta (dynamic), and, 2) Rode NT2 (condensor). So, which mic shall I use, and where's the best place to position them? Shall I also D.I. the guitar to multi-track and mix a bit of that in, too? Or is it best to just use the mic recordings? Help / advice / thoughts appreciated.

Welome.
I would go ahead and record the DI, you can choose to blend it in or dump it, but it gives you an option.
Here is what I would do;
Start with the Rode NT2, and put on your headphones..."normally" a condensor mic aimed where the body meets the neck about 1 foot away gives you a full tone without too much low end boomy from the sound hole.
But go ahead and move around slowly as you monitor through the headphones, and listen for what distance from the mic sounds the best, most balanced to your ears. Wherever that loction and distance from the mic sounds best, that's the spot.
I would also make sure to use another mic at least 3 or 4 feet away, even if all you have is a 58...here's why.
You can choose to keep close NT2 mic "dry" with no effects, possibly blending in the DI to taste...possibly panning the DI and the NT2 in different directions for imaging to taste.
Now, soak the 58 with your favorite stereo reverb, and start slowly bringing that fader up....right there, stop. Sounds awesome.

[griff71177]

This is what I did.

First off, this was the first time I've ever recorded my guitars so...that being said.

I used a figure of 8 mic about a foot off the hole, pointed at the hole. I put the other mic in the room, about 3-5 feet from, me pointed at me. Use the Rode (figure of 8) as the mono track and use a stereo plug in on the other mic and, on the mix, get the mono track sounding good. Then, turn the stereo track up to fill it out. Sounded nice when I played it back...Ultimately, trying different setups will give you different sounds. It's up to you what sounds the best.

[tigerflystudio]

WOW guys, some really great replies. Thanks a lot. I'll certainly try the variations you've all suggested. See what works / sounds best in my environment. Sorry to be a complete noob here, but what does "M/S" mean? And, again, this could just be my lack of knowledge spilling over/out again, but I thought condenser mic's were better at capturing room / ambience sound, and the dynamic (58) would be better for close-mic'ing. Am I off the mark on this one? Thanks again (maybe I'll post up the results (audio) when they're done! See what ya'll think?!)

[Yetti]

Originally Posted by tigerflystudio

but I thought condenser mic's were better at capturing room / ambience sound, and the dynamic (58) would be better for close-mic'ing. Am I off the mark on this one?

That is usually correct. lol
However, acoustic guitars "usually" sound better using a condensor as the close mic.
If you were micing a guitar amp, or a drum, then using the 58 as the close mic and a condensor as the room mic may be the better way to go.

Good luck experimenting!

[badhorsie777]

My initial approach would be to point the Rode at the twelfth fret, angled just a hair toward the soundhole, about a foot away. Adjust distance and angle (recording short clips of each) and you'll start to see how important positioning is. I am a big fan of setting a second mic in x-y mode, which means approximately a 90 degree angle to the first one, so it'll be pointing toward the neck/nut. Play with the angle, and the nice thing about this is (like m/s recording) it'll give you one FOR SURE good mic (for rhythm playing) and a second mic you can hard pan with the first if you want a really big acoustic guitar sound.

Another idea is to record the pickup as well, if you're able. That'll give you a possible three sounds, and you're bound to be able to get what you want that way.

Caveat: I usually do two small diaphragm condensors for x-y micing, but no matter what kind of mics you use, as long as the capsules are really close without touching, you'll have no phase issues.

-Matt

p.s. a gentle low end roll off with a high-pass filter/eq around 70-80 hz (6 or 12 db/octave) will help clean up unneccesary low end you might be capturing by having too much "sound hole woof" in your mics.

[MrCrowbar]

Record it like a bass drum: just stick a spare SM58 trough the soundhole.

[ableton123]

I see a lot of mentioning of the sm58 in this thread. Why would I choose the 58 over the 57 in this instance? Just trying to learn. :)

[Yetti]

Originally Posted by ableton123

I see a lot of mentioning of the sm58 in this thread. Why would I choose the 58 over the 57 in this instance? Just trying to learn. :)

The original Poster said this;
"The only mics I have at my disposal are 1) Shure SM58 Beta (dynamic), and, 2) Rode NT2 (condensor)."

[BenjiTwin]

Use the dynamic to catch the low end of the guitar (aimed at bridge or situated near the base of the guitar), Then use the NT2 to catch the high end (Near the nut to catch the strings), after that if you want more high increase the NT2's signal, more low end increase the Dynamics signal. Natural EQ like

[MikeFFG]

Originally Posted by tigerflystudio

WOW guys, some really great replies. Thanks a lot. I'll certainly try the variations you've all suggested. See what works / sounds best in my environment. Sorry to be a complete noob here, but what does "M/S" mean? And, again, this could just be my lack of knowledge spilling over/out again, but I thought condenser mic's were better at capturing room / ambience sound, and the dynamic (58) would be better for close-mic'ing. Am I off the mark on this one? Thanks again (maybe I'll post up the results (audio) when they're done! See what ya'll think?!)

M/S recording stands for 'Mid-Side.' This technique is generally more advanced...not necessarily difficult...but not one of the basics. It involves a cardiod (the pickup pattern) mic (your 57) straight on axis to the source and a figure 8/bidirectional mic (which your rode NT2 can be set 2) off axis...that is with the capsule at 90 degrees to your source. This gives you individual control over the room sound in conjunction with the on axis sound. However you need to know how to combine these signals or use a plug-in or box to 'decode' the MS.

It's a great way to mic, but being new, I'd stay away from it for now.

The best idea I've heard is use the NT2 near the soundhole ish (i prefer aiming at the 12-15th fret myself) and adjust until it sounds best to you. Depending on the style, you could use the 57 aimed at the soundhole as well, almost at the same place...further away to pickup more room...or even aimed at the neck a bit to get the 'finger' noise (i like this...lots of people hate this)

Another thing to try is to put the mic (NT2) right by the players head and this can somewhat simulate what it sounds like to the performer...which can be great, or just okay.

I suppose it is worthwhile to record the output of your electric acoustic, but I have NEVER liked that and always dumped it myself, even with an expensive Martin with a really nice pickup system. If you do decide to do this, you could really mess with the phase and get 'comb filtering.' This will also happen if you use multiple mics.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using one mic and just finding the sweet spot. I'd start simple and get a sound like before trying anything fancy.

[tigerflystudio]

All... thanks again for your kind idreas and encouragement. I have to agree, after recording a couple of provisional tracks with the electro D.I.'d, I have to say I didn't like the sound - it just wasn't full or rounded - so I'm going to record using open mics, as suggested. I think with the SM58 and the NT2 I should be able to follow your guidelines and come up with something decent. I'm not sure about phase reversal etc. but I'll start with 1 mic (the Rode) and see what results I get, then I'll add the 58 to a different area (fig 8?), and fine tune the balance. Shoudl I run the NT2 through a decent pre-amp? or just straight to multi-track (DP02) using the Tascam's onboard mic pre's?

[Yetti]

Originally Posted by tigerflystudio

All... thanks again for your kind idreas and encouragement. I have to agree, after recording a couple of provisional tracks with the electro D.I.'d, I have to say I didn't like the sound - it just wasn't full or rounded - so I'm going to record using open mics, as suggested. I think with the SM58 and the NT2 I should be able to follow your guidelines and come up with something decent. I'm not sure about phase reversal etc. but I'll start with 1 mic (the Rode) and see what results I get, then I'll add the 58 to a different area (fig 8?), and fine tune the balance. Shoudl I run the NT2 through a decent pre-amp? or just straight to multi-track (DP02) using the Tascam's onboard mic pre's?

Everything will benifit from a quality micpre, but it sounds like you are on a tight budget locked into the 2 mics you have right now.
Upgrading is a never ending progress, and at some point you will want to research mic pre options.
For now, I would recommend doing the best you can with the Rode on acousic guitar, keep it simple, and don't feel like you have to do anything more than that.
The true test is going to be if people like your song regardless of anything else.

Good luck Brotha!

[soul&folk]

I read a bunch of posts here and was surprised by much of the advice.

Do NOT point your mic at the soundhole. It will sound boxy and odd.

A condenser mic will pick up ambient sound with greater sensitivity than a dynamic mic. I don't know why some people are telling you a dynamic mic is a better mic to use as a room mic than a condenser mic. Unless they have a noisy room and are trying to minimize picking up the noise in the room.

M/S is cool and try it out, but that wouldn't be the first thing I would advise.

I would try the dynamic alone, pointed at the 12th fret about 15" away from the guitar. Maybe a bit more or less depending on volume. See if you like the sound.

Then try the Rode in the same position.

The one you like better is your starting point.

Now point the other mic away from the soundhole again but this time towards the bottom of your guitar.

You'll need to play with mic positioning but this is a very simple process and will make you smile. It's also easy to repeat once you find the positionings that you like.

(My guess is you'll like the Rode for the 12th fret and the sm58 for the lower end of the guitar)

I do something like this all the time using 2 decent condenser mics and nice preamps. Your mics are good enough and even with just basic preamps from a basic mixer are a nice starting point. We all start somewhere.

Don't bother recording the electrical output of the guitar unless you're looking to add some fx through some cool box and then it's a whole different story. But if you're looking for an acoustic guitar sound, go acoustic!

[Yetti]

Originally Posted by soul&folk

I don't know why some people are telling you a dynamic mic is a better mic to use as a room mic than a condenser mic.

Just speaking for myself, I don't think a dynamic is the better choice for a room mic, but he only has 2 mics...1 condensor and 1 dynamic.
In that context, for acoustic guitar, the condensor will "probably" sound better as the main mic.
The recommendation to use the dynamic further back as a room mic was to avoid newbie phase problems...I am sure you know that using both mics in close proximity will open the door to that problem.
I think the DI and the room dynamic could offer a little flavor and wider panning and effect options at mixdown...but the condensor would be the main mic to get right....yes, aimed somewher toward where the neck meets the body about a foot away.

[soul&folk]

Originally Posted by Yetti

Just speaking for myself, I don't think a dynamic is the better choice for a room mic, but he only has 2 mics...1 condensor and 1 dynamic.
In that context, for acoustic guitar, the condensor will "probably" sound better as the main mic.
The recommendation to use the dynamic further back as a room mic was to avoid newbie phase problems...I am sure you know that using both mics in close proximity will open the door to that problem.
I think the DI and the room dynamic could offer a little flavor and wider panning and effect options at mixdown...but the condensor would be the main mic to get right....yes, aimed somewher toward where the neck meets the body about a foot away.

There won't be phasing problems if they are pointed away from each other.

[nsarlo]

i usually do an X/Y in front of the sound hole, a 57 pointed at the neck right before the sound hole and DI.

[soul&folk]

Originally Posted by nsarlo

i usually do an X/Y in front of the sound hole, a 57 pointed at the neck right before the sound hole and DI.

Please translate what you mean by DI. It obviously doesn't mean what I usually understand by DI.

[nsarlo]

Originally Posted by soul&folk

Please translate what you mean by DI. It obviously doesn't mean what I usually understand by DI.

its exactly what you think, direct in, if you have a acoustic/electric of course.

[soul&folk]

hmmm.

so you're using 4 signals? 2 mics xy, plus a 57, plus the di signal?

[nsarlo]

Originally Posted by soul&folk

hmmm.

so you're using 4 signals? 2 mics xy, plus a 57, plus the di signal?

yup!

[soul&folk]

that's a bit much for me but as we all know, three are no hardfast rules. whatever works is good

[nsarlo]

Originally Posted by soul&folk

that's a bit much for me but as we all know, three are no hardfast rules. whatever works is good

yeah it might be considered a bit much, but i love the sound. very full!

but i wouldn't do this for every situation, theres times when this technique won't work with the feel of the song.