Prodipe Pro 8 Studio Monitors? any owners?

[icecubeman]

Originally Posted by 1j1

Maaaaaaannnnn, monitor shopping makes my head hurt. Thought I had 100% decided on prodipe ribbon 8s but not sure. Currently using Alesis Mk2 actives; before had yamaha msp3s but found that the highs were too harsh (still got em but looking to sell).

Would the Pro ribbon 8s be an improvement on my alesis's? I can't find an alesis freq response chart to compare to and I notice the pros start rolling off at around 70hz. Do you have to go into the £1000s to get a flat response from 50hz-(ish) to 20khz?

Also, my room has NO treatment whatsoever, and currently I don't think I would be able to treat it even if I wanted to. It's a bedroom studio and there's too much stuff in here. All corners are taken up by furniture.

I have recently got record label interest though. I want to start getting more serious and thought that a monitor upgrade would be appropriate.

Got my eye on Genelecs, but they're currently a bit out of my price range. I was thinking, go with the pro 8s (thinking they'd be an upgrade from my alesis') and start saving for Genelecs (8040as or 8250as) and room treatment.

Can anyone advise me before my brain explodes

Prodipes playing down to 50 without problems, go for it and also treat your room because it is very important whatever monitors you have. Flat response from 50 to 20 is not possible with nearfields in 1000 range.

[1j1]

Originally Posted by Rev. Eslam

I suggest the small Genelecs or even better save up for Neumanns.

As in the genelecs I've posted? + which Neumanns?

Also, I don't think I'd be able to afford the genelecs for quite a while. We're talking a year or so (if I'm to consider any treatment at the same time), so for now I'm looking for something that will improve upon my alesis mk2s and I may move some stuff around/get rid of some stuff in my room and start treating.

Thanks for advice.

Any further thoughts?

[1j1]

Originally Posted by icecubeman

Prodipes playing down to 50 without problems, go for it and also treat your room because it is very important whatever monitors you have. Flat response from 50 to 20 is not possible with nearfields in 1000 range.

Re: flat response, that's what I thought. And as I said in the previous post, it will be a while before I can go into the £1000+ range AND start treating. Really I've just got enough cash to get some 400-ish monitors and start treating or some slightly more expensive ones with no treatment.

That slope: Professional Active Ribbon Studio Monitor 8” around 70hz is bothering me though (but I guess that's my perfectionist tendencies coming through). Is there any way to compensate for it? I've read this whole thread and most people say that their mixes translate well, apart from that one which points out that they're a tad bass light (reflected in the above link freq response chart), resulting in too much bass on other systems. Though, I'm guessing my £250 Alesis' are probably even less flat (but I would like to know for sure, before I go spending hard earned pennies).

Do you/does anyone know where I can find a freq response chart for the alesis mk2s (as well as adams a7x) to compare?

So, icecubeman, if that is your real name, would you say that the prodipes would be a definite improvement on my alesis'? Even before I start treating my room? Have you had any experience with the alesis'?

Sorry for the epic amount of questions. Poor student here and it's flippin hard to make these decisions.

All (halfway decent) advice would be much appreciated.

Cheers guys

[1j1]

ALSO, a few years ago I developed tinnitus (live by the sword, die by the sword), it's a lot better, doesn't really bother me much anymore and I've got some wicked ear plugs for when I go out, but listening fatigue is something that has played/is playing a large part in my decision to upgrade also. I've read/heard that ribbon tweeters (in general and on these particular monitors) are supposed to be less fatiguing.

[icecubeman]

Originally Posted by 1j1

Re: flat response, that's what I thought. And as I said in the previous post, it will be a while before I can go into the £1000+ range AND start treating. Really I've just got enough cash to get some 400-ish monitors and start treating or some slightly more expensive ones with no treatment.

That slope: Professional Active Ribbon Studio Monitor 8” around 70hz is bothering me though (but I guess that's my perfectionist tendencies coming through). Is there any way to compensate for it? I've read this whole thread and most people say that their mixes translate well, apart from that one which points out that they're a tad bass light (reflected in the above link freq response chart), resulting in too much bass on other systems. Though, I'm guessing my £250 Alesis' are probably even less flat (but I would like to know for sure, before I go spending hard earned pennies).

Do you/does anyone know where I can find a freq response chart for the alesis mk2s (as well as adams a7x) to compare?

So, icecubeman, if that is your real name, would you say that the prodipes would be a definite improvement on my alesis'? Even before I start treating my room? Have you had any experience with the alesis'?

Sorry for the epic amount of questions. Poor student here and it's flippin hard to make these decisions.

All (halfway decent) advice would be much appreciated.

Cheers guys

I dont know about others, but my Prodipes are not bass light, everything in bass is right there. No problems at all

[squirreltrench]

Originally Posted by 1j1

Maaaaaaannnnn, monitor shopping makes my head hurt. Thought I had 100% decided on prodipe ribbon 8s but not sure. Currently using Alesis Mk2 actives; before had yamaha msp3s but found that the highs were too harsh (still got em but looking to sell).

Would the Pro ribbon 8s be an improvement on my alesis's? I can't find an alesis freq response chart to compare to and I notice the pros start rolling off at around 70hz. Do you have to go into the £1000s to get a flat response from 50hz-(ish) to 20khz?

Also, my room has NO treatment whatsoever, and currently I don't think I would be able to treat it even if I wanted to. It's a bedroom studio and there's too much stuff in here. All corners are taken up by furniture.

I have recently got record label interest though. I want to start getting more serious and thought that a monitor upgrade would be appropriate.

Got my eye on Genelecs, but they're currently a bit out of my price range. I was thinking, go with the pro 8s (thinking they'd be an upgrade from my alesis') and start saving for Genelecs (8040as or 8250as) and room treatment.

Can anyone advise me before my brain explodes

Yes.... the best advice is to stop worrying about the difference in monitors and focus on making great music. You say you have major label interest.... let me assure you they don't give a rat's $#&* what monitors you are mixing on. So forget about it and get back to music!

[1j1]

Thank you both. squirrel you are right (though it's not MAJOR label interest, but nice independent label interest ).

Okay, I think I think I'm going to take the plunge. But first, can I just ask you all/anyone, from the general specs etc and comparing this review: ALESIS M1 ACTIVE MkII with the prodipes, d'you think that they will be a general improvement on my existing alesis'?

I don't want to be spending money if there won't be much difference. I'm sure all you ex-students and stereotypical struggling artists can understand

Cheers guys

[icecubeman]

Active alesis monitors are not very good based on what I read here on Gearslutz. Passive ones are much better, but there is only 6,5 woofer I think. So with Ribbon 8 you will hear significant improvement IMHO

[1j1]

think i'm gonna go for it

[Kierkes]

Originally Posted by 1j1

think i'm gonna go for it

Just make sure YOU click the buy button. My roommate clicked it for me and I feel dirty.

[miro]

Do it! If you're considering speakers in max. 600$ range, they will not dissapoint! Me, as many others rate them as speakers in the 1000-1500$ range.

They are good and brilliant for that price - unbelievable. No worries about bass. it's good and solid without being boomy or fake. The stereo imaging is very good as well.

[1j1]

I did it!!! I did it!!! Feedback soon to come.

[Kierkes]

Originally Posted by 1j1

I did it!!! I did it!!! Feedback soon to come.

Congratulations! Let us know!

[1j1]

Okay. So, they sound great when they're working, stereo imaging a massive step up from my previous monitors. However, I need some advice here.

I am in the UK so, having to, I first bought some multi travel adapter plugs from a store nearby. They worked but they kept cutting out (bad connection in the adapters). When they were on there was a SLIGHT buzz, but barely audible. Audible if you get close to them on the tweeter and the woofer.

I took those adaptors back and got some Shuko adapters. Plugging them in, fine, the same light buzz = woofer, hiss = tweeter, but nothing too bad, BUT now when I connect the speakers to either my audio interface (tascam 122 mk1) via phono, or laptop out via phono to stereo jack I get a REALLY loud hiss/buzz.

What's going on? What should I do? If I could get advice ASAP that would be great as I've only got 30 days to return them free of charge/get them replaced, if there is a fault.

Can you help/advise me gearslutz?

ALSO, should there even be this initial light buzz/hiss there in the first place?

Cheers guys, keep it slutty.

[squirreltrench]

Are you talking about adaptors in your audio chain? (i.e. what is connecting your source to the speakers?) or are you talking about adaptors in your electricity connection?

Either way, adaptors are like the kiss of death to me... the perfect spot to introduce distortion, clicks, pops, humms, buzzes, and everything else.

You want a clean audio chain from your source (interface) to the speakers. What you want is a balanced connection, and that usually means 1/4" TRS (or XLR) from your interface to 1/4" TRS (or XLR) connections for the speaker input and NO ADAPTORS. If you have a balanced audio connection like this, and no audio was playing, you would likely not even know that your Prodipes were even on except for the blue laser beams, errrr, I mean LEDs.

[1j1]

Originally Posted by squirreltrench

Are you talking about adaptors in your audio chain? (i.e. what is connecting your source to the speakers?) or are you talking about adaptors in your electricity connection?

Either way, adaptors are like the kiss of death to me... the perfect spot to introduce distortion, clicks, pops, humms, buzzes, and everything else.

You want a clean audio chain from your source (interface) to the speakers. What you want is a balanced connection, and that usually means 1/4" TRS (or XLR) from your interface to 1/4" TRS (or XLR) connections for the speaker input and NO ADAPTORS. If you have a balanced audio connection like this, and no audio was playing, you would likely not even know that your Prodipes were even on except for the blue laser beams, errrr, I mean LEDs.

Well, both; though my last post was specifically referring to Electricity: Shuko plug to UK plug.

When they were plugged in to the same AUDIO cables, but into the crappy ELECTRIC adapters (that were cutting out if they moved slightly) there was not a LOUD buzz like this. BUT both times, when they've been plugged into both the crappy (electric): 'Whole World to UK' plugs (that were cutting out and have been taken back) and the specific 'Shuko to UK' plugs (but NO audio cables), there has been a slight buzz and hiss from the woofer and tweeter (respectively). THOUGH, now, with the (electric) 'Shuko to UK' adapters, a new, even LOUDER buzz is happening when I plug the audio cables in???

The audio cable setups I've tried (BOTH combinations resulting in the same LOUD buzz with these new 'Shuko to UK plug adapters') are 1: phono(from my tascam 122 mk1 audio interface) to phono/rca(input on the prodipes) and 2: Stereo mini jack (out of my mac's audio out) split to 2 phono, to phono/rca on the prodipes.

There are no other connections on my audio interface to try. The only outputs are phono (or rca. Isn't phono and rca the same thing?) and a single stereo jack/headphone output.

Sorry for the complicated writing, I tried to put it as succinctly as possible.

+ Thank you for the quick reply mr squirreltrench

[squirreltrench]

Ok, I am no expert in UK wiring, but my first instinct would be to get a relatively clean electric connection. So forget the adaptor, and go with a standard UK power cable, something like this or this.

Next step in eliminating hum is to make sure that all devices are plugged into the same outlet or powerstrip. (i.e. your Tascam, your Mac and both Prodipes) Here's an article about eliminating ground loop hum/buzz.

However, it may very well be that the hum is in your audio cable connections. Unfortunately, RCA is an unbalanced connector (2-wires). 1/4" TRS jacks and XLR are balanced connectors (3-wires), and are the professional way to go. The RCA connections can be particularly problematic when running the audio cables near power cords. Since you probably have no choice about the RCA connections, do whatever you can to get them away from any power cords. If you move the RCA cables, and you can hear the hum get louder or softer when you do that, then that's part of the problem.

Here are some articles about unbalanced (RCA) type connections and balanced (1/4" TRS or XLR): Balanced vs Unbalanced • Wikipedia Balanced Audio • Difference between Balanced and Unbalanced

So to me, the bottom line is: The Prodipes should not be buzzing or humming loudly. If both of them are doing this equally, it's most likely in your set-up and not the fault of the Prodipes, since a technical defect is much more likely to be in one monitor, and not both.

The unbalanced RCA connectors should not be massively noisy, but a little bit of hum and/or hiss would not be unexpected.

Someday, you may want to upgrade your audio interface to one with balanced outputs, but you should be able to get perfectly fantastic results with your current Tascam.

[rifftrax2]

I just have to say that I ended giving my Prodipe Pro Ribbon 8 to a friend (payment for some services he rendered) because I found some much more expensive speakers that were better but I would buy them again in a heartbeat to have a second "B" set of mains for my studio...

[1j1]

Originally Posted by squirreltrench

Ok, I am no expert in UK wiring, but my first instinct would be to get a relatively clean electric connection. So forget the adaptor, and go with a standard UK power cable, something like this or this.

Next step in eliminating hum is to make sure that all devices are plugged into the same outlet or powerstrip. (i.e. your Tascam, your Mac and both Prodipes) Here's an article about eliminating ground loop hum/buzz.

However, it may very well be that the hum is in your audio cable connections. Unfortunately, RCA is an unbalanced connector (2-wires). 1/4" TRS jacks and XLR are balanced connectors (3-wires), and are the professional way to go. The RCA connections can be particularly problematic when running the audio cables near power cords. Since you probably have no choice about the RCA connections, do whatever you can to get them away from any power cords. If you move the RCA cables, and you can hear the hum get louder or softer when you do that, then that's part of the problem.

Here are some articles about unbalanced (RCA) type connections and balanced (1/4" TRS or XLR): Balanced vs Unbalanced • Wikipedia Balanced Audio • Difference between Balanced and Unbalanced

So to me, the bottom line is: The Prodipes should not be buzzing or humming loudly. If both of them are doing this equally, it's most likely in your set-up and not the fault of the Prodipes, since a technical defect is much more likely to be in one monitor, and not both.

The unbalanced RCA connectors should not be massively noisy, but a little bit of hum and/or hiss would not be unexpected.

Someday, you may want to upgrade your audio interface to one with balanced outputs, but you should be able to get perfectly fantastic results with your current Tascam.

Thanks again for the speedy reply squirreltrench.

So I have tried everything you suggested but, not luck :(

To take you through what I've done so far:

I have just plugged in my mac, both prodipes (tascam usb powered) into the same power strip.

First: Still with electric 'Shuko to UK' plug adapter, tried with phono to mini jack, no audio cables touching power cables. Result = Same loud buzz.

Second: Replaced electric 'Shuko to UK' plug adapter with a standard Kettle lead as suggested, with phono to mini jack, no audio cables touching power cables. Result = Same loud buzz.

Third: Replaced electric 'Shuko to UK' plug adapter with a standard Kettle lead as suggested, with phono (from my tascam) to phono/RCA, no audio cables touching power cables. Result = Loud buzz ALSO additional high pitched tone.

When I move the phono/rca cables nearer power chords it doesn't seem to make a difference. ALSO, thought I should mention that I had absolutely ZERO, ZILCH, NADA, NO hum/hiss at all with my previous monitors (Alesis Active Mk2), with any combination of audio cables plugged in, audio cables lying next to electric cables, one monitor plugged into one power strip and another plugged into a different one; with all of these scenarios I had NO problems AT ALL with hum/hiss (with audio cables plugged in or not) with my previous monitors.

(Re: audio interface, my next hardware purchase I was already intending to get an RME babyface, but I need to save a little before I can do that.)

Thanks for the advice though squirreltrench it is much appreciated, but none of the above measures seem to be working, so of course, I need to keep asking: What do I do? What's going on?

[squirreltrench]

Ok, let's go back to extreme basics.

Are the AC Select red switches on the back set to 220-240V/ T1AL 50 Hz?
Is the volume set to 0 db?
Did you follow any set-up instructions precisely, if they were for the UK? (such as the AC Select switches, proper cables, and fuses?)

I still doubt this is a fault of the Prodipes unless they were both slammed in shipping.

It's good that you have previously run monitors in your set-up so that you know it should be working. BTW, the audio and power cables do not have to be touching for there to be noise in the audio line. Just near each other can be enough to induce noise into the audio. But if moving the audio cables nearer or farther to the power cables does not change the level of hum significantly, than that is not the issue.

[1j1]

Originally Posted by squirreltrench

Ok, let's go back to extreme basics.

Are the AC Select red switches on the back set to 220-240V/ T1AL 50 Hz?
Is the volume set to 0 db?
Did you follow any set-up instructions precisely, if they were for the UK? (such as the AC Select switches, proper cables, and fuses?)

I still doubt this is a fault of the Prodipes unless they were both slammed in shipping.

It's good that you have previously run monitors in your set-up so that you know it should be working. BTW, the audio and power cables do not have to be touching for there to be noise in the audio line. Just near each other can be enough to induce noise into the audio. But if moving the audio cables nearer or farther to the power cables does not change the level of hum significantly, than that is not the issue.

Ac select is set to correct voltage. Volume (both main and HF) set to 0db.

I followed what little setup instructions there were.

Moving audio cables does not change the volume of hum. :(

[squirreltrench]

I don't know what to say at this point, except to do some A/B testing. Test the Prodipes in another location, say at a friend's place where you know other speakers are working, and also test your previous monitors in your location if you still have them. If you swap speakers and connections in another location where the other monitors are working, and still get noise in the Prodipes, then you know there is a problem with the Prodipes.

[mir]

1j1> This really seems like a common ground-loop problem that can be fixed, don't worry. You just need to fix your audio cables a little to get rid of that hum/buzz/noise/... My suggestion is to use (if possible) 2x RCA (from your audio interface) -> 2x XLR (to Prodipes) and finally disconnect the ground/shield PIN from both XLR connectors. This will close the ground-loop between Prodipes and your audio-interface and in effect you won't have ground-loop noises being picked up by Prodipes. This should also work with TRS/TS (audio interface) -> XLR (monitors) type of connectors. When I sold my Prodipes, the buyer later asked me if I didn't know how to get rid of that hum - I suggested the same.

I can assure you this is not the problem only with Prodipes, I had the very same problem with HS80m (my first monitors) - when I plugged audio cables to them, every crazy noise/hum/buzz from my PC got picked up by them and it was pretty annoying. When connected to the same outlet (audio interface - PC, monitors), ground loop can occur. Ground lift really helps here. Some expensive monitors like Neumann KH120 have ground-lift switch directly incorporated into them.

As for the Prodipes, several users here experienced their "internal" hum/buzz (without audio cables plugged into them), so it's kind of a ordinary here.

Hope this helps. Let us know

[squirreltrench]

Originally Posted by mir

As for the Prodipes, several users here experienced their "internal" hum/buzz (without audio cables plugged into them), so it's kind of a ordinary here.

Wait, what? The Prodipes are silent with no audio connection or a balanced connection in... unless you are wearing them like gigantic headphones. Seriously, you have to stick your ear within 2 or 3 inches of them to hear any internal noise at the 0 dB setting. As long as your head is at least 12" away, you wouldn't even be able to tell that they are on (with no audio signal) if not for the blue laser beams.

If you have the Prodipes set to 0 db, and were close enough to them to hear their internal noise with no audio playing, you would shatter your eardrums when you played music through them. These babies can go plenty loud.

[SquashPile]

I can't hear any buzz, hum or hiss with cables plugged in or not. Using balanced connections. No issues. Sounds like grounding/electrical as previously mentioned.

[mir]

As far as I know, several users here in this thread complained about Prodipes' own hum/buzz/hiss, myself included. But the others have dead-silent experience. But it doesn't matter if they work as intented

[1j1]

Originally Posted by squirreltrench

Wait, what? The Prodipes are silent with no audio connection or a balanced connection in... unless you are wearing them like gigantic headphones. Seriously, you have to stick your ear within 2 or 3 inches of them to hear any internal noise at the 0 dB setting. As long as your head is at least 12" away, you wouldn't even be able to tell that they are on (with no audio signal) if not for the blue laser beams.

If you have the Prodipes set to 0 db, and were close enough to them to hear their internal noise with no audio playing, you would shatter your eardrums when you played music through them. These babies can go plenty loud.

I was going to embark on an epic private message quest this evening to all prodipe ribbon 8 owners on this thread, but it looks like enough of you have chimed in to avoid this

This is what I'm talking about too (as well as my additional issues). With NOO audio cables plugged in JUST electricity, laptop charger and both monitors all in the same power strip there is an audible hiss from the tweeters at 0db from 30cm away and an audible hum/buzz, coming from the either inside the monitors/the transformer(?) or from the woofer, it's hard to tell, at any volume and at most distances.

I have taken one monitor downstairs and tried it there with no surrounding electric cables and still the hiss and hum/buzz issue. And anyway, before in my room with my my alesis active mk1s there was no hiss or hum/buzz at all, even without addressing any ground/earth loop issues, that until now I had never experienced or even heard of.

So, there is this additional issue with them, a REALLY loud buzz/hiss when audio cables are plugged in but even with no audio cables plugged in there is still buzz/hiss. I'm trying to determine whether I have a faulty pair or not before I send them back/get them replaced (and actually wondering whether to replace them or get a refund??). Some people here report NO noise at all from these at 0db when they're on without audio leads plugged in AND even with audio cables plugged in (unless I'm missing something). So I'm wondering whether there is a faulty batch or what??? It's confusing the s*%t out of me.

Feel free to chime in fellow slutz

[rmandelbaum]

So i am looking attne YAMAHA HS80m monitors, any thoughts on how the Prodde ribbon monitors compare?

[squirreltrench]

Using a free decibel meter on my iPhone, here is what I can perceive.

I have a relatively noisy room; the background noise is at about 38-41 db. If I move the mic on the iPhone closer and closer to the ribbon of one of my Prodipe, I can see absolutely no difference in ambient noise until I get it to about 6" away (about 15 cm), and even then, it's only registering maybe 1 or possibly 2 db higher. I can very faintly hear a buzz at this distance. But I can hear no buzz from a listening position of about 3 feet away (roughly 90 cm).

Bear in mind, that at 0dB on the Prodipes, they are capable of outputting well over 100 db of volume at 3 feet/90cm away, and probably over 110 db at 6 inches/15cm away. (I think my iPhone decibel app doesn't go over 100 db).

So if you are going to be using them at a distance of only 6 inches/15cm, then you may want to turn them down less than 0 db so that you don't risk damaging your ear drums. (BTW, using them at a distance of 15cm away is practically like using them as extremely large headphones.)

Now, how much buzz/hiss can you hear at a distance of 15cm? Is it barely audible, or quite loud? If it's pretty faint, then yes, that is normal.

[1j1]

Originally Posted by squirreltrench

Using a free decibel meter on my iPhone, here is what I can perceive.

I have a relatively noisy room; the background noise is at about 38-41 db. If I move the mic on the iPhone closer and closer to the ribbon of one of my Prodipe, I can see absolutely no difference in ambient noise until I get it to about 6" away (about 15 cm), and even then, it's only registering maybe 1 or possibly 2 db higher. I can very faintly hear a buzz at this distance. But I can hear no buzz from a listening position of about 3 feet away (roughly 90 cm).

Bear in mind, that at 0dB on the Prodipes, they are capable of outputting well over 100 db of volume at 3 feet/90cm away, and probably over 110 db at 6 inches/15cm away. (I think my iPhone decibel app doesn't go over 100 db).

So if you are going to be using them at a distance of only 6 inches/15cm, then you may want to turn them down less than 0 db so that you don't risk damaging your ear drums. (BTW, using them at a distance of 15cm away is practically like using them as extremely large headphones.)

Now, how much buzz/hiss can you hear at a distance of 15cm? Is it barely audible, or quite loud? If it's pretty faint, then yes, that is normal.

All of the above tests are with no audio leads plugged in.

The hiss is audible (not loud but audible) at 30cm. The hum/buzz is audible at about 60cm away. My listening position is about 3 foot also, so no worries about using them at close range (I would have thought that it would be common sense not to use them so close). I can't really hear the hiss from my listening position, maybe slightly, but hardly. I can definitely hear the hum/buzz though. They do sound good when audio is coming through them, a definite step up in terms of stereo imaging and flat response BUT, this hiss and this hum

"Now, how much buzz/hiss can you hear at a distance of 15cm? Is it barely audible, or quite loud? If it's pretty faint, then yes, that is normal."

I am confused. I just re-tested my alesis active mk1s, to make sure i'm not going mad, and there is NO hum/buzz from them whatsoever in the same setup and even at full volume I have to put my ear literally almost pressed up against the tweeter to hear any hiss, literally about 1cm away, and even then it's barely audible.

How come monitors that are supposed to be such an improvement and go for double the RRP have this hiss and hum that monitors half the price don't?

Also, from scanning through this thread I'm sure I've read reports of some people saying that they experience no hiss or hum (I think I'm going to PM to confirm this)???

So, once I've got the additional noises sorted (when audio cables are plugged in and they produce audible noise from around the whole room) I guess I need to decide whether I want to keep them or not. That is, unless the hiss/hum shouldn't be there and the supplier can sort it out???

The supplier has asked me to make a video + audio recording of the problem. I'll report back. Till then, if anyone else can come forward re: hiss and hum that would be much appreciated.

Thank you squirreltrench for your advise so far