Mid side microphone questions (and equipment...)

[littlejim84]

Hello. I have done a search on this, but nothing that's totally relavant to what I'm pondering...

I have a MacBook Pro with an Apogee Duet interface. I have a AKG C414B microphone and a Shure SM58. I'm not looking to upgrade these (if I have too) but wondered if they would be (at the very least) OK to try out the M/S technique on an acoustic guitar. I know the Shure is probably not ideal, but I really can't afford much at the moment... Though I'm interested to know what reasonable cost effective microphone would suit better.

I understand the process in general, but wondered if M/S microphone adaptors exist for a single microphone stand. If so, what and where?

Also, I run Ableton Live 8 as my main DAW and this doesn't come with anything to do the M/S calculations... Is there any software (again cost effective) that will do this for me?

...I'm purely at the stage of wanting to try this technique out. With a limited budget... Can anyone help?

Thanks slutz!

[Chrislpp]

Any cardioid condenser. Ideally you would want to do it with a matched pair of 414's but you say cost effective which maybe rules that out.

Nothing bad is gonna happen if you try it Just the sound from each mic is gonna be very different and probably not work well, not very natural.

But you can still process it ITB and post a sample for us to hear

[Stitch333]

cardioid (or omni) and a figure 8 pattern mics.
Cardioid faces the source, figure 8 captures L/R.
You can use a stereo bar to adjust the mics correctly.
Record to a stereo track.
There is an easy M/S plug in ProTools, don't know about Live tho...

[littlejim84]

Originally Posted by Stitch333

cardioid (or omni) and a figure 8 pattern mics.
Cardioid faces the source, figure 8 captures L/R.
You can use a stereo bar to adjust the mics correctly.
Record to a stereo track.
There is an easy M/S plug in ProTools, don't know about Live tho...

A stereo bar?

...I have found this software, which I presume will do the trick. Voxengo do have a good rep (Audio mid/side encoder/decoder plugin - MSED - Voxengo). What you reckon?

[Stitch333]

Originally Posted by littlejim84

A stereo bar?

...I have found this software, which I presume will do the trick. Voxengo do have a good rep (Audio mid/side encoder/decoder plugin - MSED - Voxengo). What you reckon?

ZenPro Audio: Stereo Bars (Multi-Mic Mounts)

something on this page will do, depending on the mics you use.
The idea is to get the grills/diaphrams as close together and as in phase as possible.
If you look at the link above, there is a pair of Coles 4040s that is in Blumlien stereo, which (as far as mic placement is concerned) is a good start for reference. I've found, too, with this mic placement, both the relative position of the mics to each other and the room placement of the mics, will have an impact on the success of the technique.

That plug looks good to me, tho I haven't used it personally.
The encoder/decoder is not the most complicated circuit.

Cheers!

[littlejim84]

I'll need a vertical stereo bar for this to work right? I can't see how I could align the two microphones correctly using a horizontal one?

[littlejim84]

One of these maybe? The Shure A27M?

Shure - A27M Stereo Microphone Adapter

That, from what I can read, goes in all sorts of directions... For X/Y and for M/S. Or am I wrong?

[Ca$h Marty]

or you could just use two stands and position them coincidentally

[littlejim84]

Originally Posted by Ca$h Marty

or you could just use two stands and position them coincidentally

...im trying for a minimal setup here to be honest. Though yes, of course, that's an option. So is lots of cellotape to hold the two mics together, but don't really want to do that either

[MrCrowbar]

Originally Posted by littlejim84

I'll need a vertical stereo bar for this to work right? I can't see how I could align the two microphones correctly using a horizontal one?

Here's how (picture): http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/9590/img4613y.jpg

The cool thing about figure of 8 is that you only need to orient 2 axes out of 3; You can spin the 8 on its long axis and it will sound pretty much the same.

Here's what you do: Get a normal short stereo bar, attach the mid mic on the top and position it correctly. The attach the fig8 mic, turn it in the shockmount and moe it around on the stereo bar until it is very close to the other one.

[Chrislpp]

Process the audio yourself, you'll learn more about what MID/SIDE actually is and why it works.

[Stitch333]

Originally Posted by MrCrowbar

Here's how (picture): http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/9590/img4613y.jpg

The cool thing about figure of 8 is that you only need to orient 2 axes out of 3; You can spin the 8 on its long axis and it will sound pretty much the same.

Here's what you do: Get a normal short stereo bar, attach the mid mic on the top and position it correctly. The attach the fig8 mic, turn it in the shockmount and moe it around on the stereo bar until it is very close to the other one.

Good picture for front address cardioid MS setup!
I was speaking for set-up using a side address LDC, as that is what I prefer, in addition to the fig 8 mic.
As always: try and listen.

[littlejim84]

Originally Posted by MrCrowbar

Here's how (picture): http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/9590/img4613y.jpg

The cool thing about figure of 8 is that you only need to orient 2 axes out of 3; You can spin the 8 on its long axis and it will sound pretty much the same.

Here's what you do: Get a normal short stereo bar, attach the mid mic on the top and position it correctly. The attach the fig8 mic, turn it in the shockmount and moe it around on the stereo bar until it is very close to the other one.

I have a shockmount for my AKG C414B, but not for the Shure. I'm presuming I really need one for that aswell, to make sure it has the right height to get it into position? ... I only have the small mic stand adaptor that comes with the Shure.

Or, that Shure stereo bar I've seen... Which looks like it can do all sorts of angles. Anyone here have experience with these? Looks versitile...

Shure - A27M Stereo Microphone Adapter

[MrCrowbar]

Originally Posted by littlejim84

I have a shockmount for my AKG C414B, but not for the Shure. I'm presuming I really need one for that aswell, to make sure it has the right height to get it into position? ... I only have the small mic stand adaptor that comes with the Shure.

Or, that Shure stereo bar I've seen... Which looks like it can do all sorts of angles. Anyone here have experience with these? Looks versitile...

Shure - A27M Stereo Microphone Adapter

That Shure adapter looks expensive and doesn't look like it gives you much freedom in terms of positioning.

How about a stereo bar and a goose neck?
http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/5018/img4674n.jpg
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/8222/img4675.jpg
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/9903/img4676j.jpg


My K&M Gooseneck (very thick and not stubborn) holds the SM58 in place nicely, plus the figure of 8 mic gives it some support. I recommend putting something soft and small in between where both mics touch.

[mikethedrummer]

Anyone bored enough to explain to me why you would need to process a M/S signal? Aren't the minor phase discrepancies what gives it its distinct sound? And if it isnt a stereo mic wouldn't recording it in stereo be pointless?

I'm helpless, I know

[MrCrowbar]

Originally Posted by mikethedrummer

Anyone bored enough to explain to me why you would need to process a M/S signal? Aren't the minor phase discrepancies what gives it its distinct sound? And if it isnt a stereo mic wouldn't recording it in stereo be pointless?

I'm helpless, I know

You don't need a stereo mic for MS, just a figure of 8. The trick is that sound pressure coming into the top of the 8 makes positive waves and and the sound pressure coming into the bottom of the 8 make negative waves (i.e. phase reversed).

When processing a Mid Side recording, you need to split the signal up and pan one copy hard left and the other one phase inverted and panned hard right. You can EQ and compress the side channels to shape the sound of the stereo image.

Mid Side is hard to wrap your head around but it really is stereo and sounds pretty nice. It's not hugely popular among rome recordists because figure of 8 microphones aren't very cheap.

[Old Goat]

Originally Posted by MrCrowbar

You don't need a stereo mic for MS, just a figure of 8. The trick is that sound pressure coming into the top of the 8 makes positive waves and and the sound pressure coming into the bottom of the 8 make negative waves (i.e. phase reversed).

When processing a Mid Side recording, you need to split the signal up and pan one copy hard left and the other one phase inverted and panned hard right. You can EQ and compress the side channels to shape the sound of the stereo image.

Mid Side is hard to wrap your head around but it really is stereo and sounds pretty nice. It's not hugely popular among rome recordists because figure of 8 microphones aren't very cheap.

Aw, an AT 4050 isn't that bad, and works just fine with an Oktava M-012 for the mid. And it really sounds good.

[ears2thesky]

Originally Posted by mikethedrummer

Anyone bored enough to explain to me why you would need to process a M/S signal? Aren't the minor phase discrepancies what gives it its distinct sound? And if it isnt a stereo mic wouldn't recording it in stereo be pointless?

I'm helpless, I know

Run the cardiod "mid" mic to one channel of your DAW. Run the Figure-8 "side" mic to another channel. When record arming I feed the figure-8 signal to two tracks simultaneously. Pan the cardiod track to center. Pan the two fig-8 channels hard left and right. Reverse polarity on one of them. Link the two faders so any moves are in sync. You now have M/S across three channels to balance however you please with no other hardware or software needed. You could even automate moves to really make interesting changes in the stereo image of an instrument during a song.
M/S is my preferred drum overhead mic technique.

[Funkster]

hey littlejim,

do whatever you can to set it up and play around with it. MS is a great option. Which +/- you chose for the figure 8 can have a big difference in the sound.

I posted a song on here a couple years ago where the acoustic was recorded MS you can check out.

Why U Walkin Away?

[antilog]

I enjoy using M/S arrays and experimenting with the mics. I use a posilok side-mount boom to get a second mic aligned vertically on the mic stand. Works great.

[littlejim84]

Thank you very much for the responses to this. It's been a really great help.

Just a few more things... I'm interested in a gooseneck for the Shure, it seems like the best most flexible solution. I've seen a 18" Shure one, but that seems like overkill. The other option is the Shure A27M adaptor. The PDF/page is linked here, it looks quite flexible? (Shure - A27M Stereo Microphone Adapter)

Also, what does the -/+ of the figure of 8 mean exactly? I'm not too sure on that. The AKG C414B I have for this figure of 8 is surely a good mic to have right? I know the Shure SM58 probably isn't the best, but it'll do the job right?

Thanks again for all the replies. Really great stuff here to understand this technique.

[matt thomas]

Originally Posted by littlejim84

Thank you very much for the responses to this. It's been a really great help.

Just a few more things... I'm interested in a gooseneck for the Shure, it seems like the best most flexible solution. I've seen a 18" Shure one, but that seems like overkill. The other option is the Shure A27M adaptor. The PDF/page is linked here, it looks quite flexible? (Shure - A27M Stereo Microphone Adapter)

Also, what does the -/+ of the figure of 8 mean exactly? I'm not too sure on that. The AKG C414B I have for this figure of 8 is surely a good mic to have right? I know the Shure SM58 probably isn't the best, but it'll do the job right?

Thanks again for all the replies. Really great stuff here to understand this technique.

I have that shure thing, its not quite as big as I would like, so it can't do everything, but it does do what it does well.

I think you are ovethinking the mid side thing. Just read a couple of explanations of it on the web, it should make sense.

mid side technique - Google Search

In a figure 8 mic one side of the mic picks up sound in phase, and the other side picks up sound out of phase

matt

[antilog]

Originally Posted by littlejim84

Thank you very much for the responses to this. It's been a really great help.

Just a few more things... I'm interested in a gooseneck for the Shure, it seems like the best most flexible solution. I've seen a 18" Shure one, but that seems like overkill. The other option is the Shure A27M adaptor. The PDF/page is linked here, it looks quite flexible? (Shure - A27M Stereo Microphone Adapter)

Also, what does the -/+ of the figure of 8 mean exactly? I'm not too sure on that. The AKG C414B I have for this figure of 8 is surely a good mic to have right? I know the Shure SM58 probably isn't the best, but it'll do the job right?

Thanks again for all the replies. Really great stuff here to understand this technique.

The front side of the fig 8 mic corresponds to + and the back side is -, so front side is aimed left and backside right. Regarding the mic mount, attached is a photo of an MS array I setup with the posilok.

Don't read too many explanations or tutorials of this - find one that is simple (like the one posted above) and just do it. Then experiment with muting the M, listening, muting the S, changing the balance of M and S, to hear the magic. Once you successfully get it set up once, the signal routing is easy.

[mikethedrummer]

Originally Posted by MrCrowbar

You don't need a stereo mic for MS, just a figure of 8. The trick is that sound pressure coming into the top of the 8 makes positive waves and and the sound pressure coming into the bottom of the 8 make negative waves (i.e. phase reversed).

When processing a Mid Side recording, you need to split the signal up and pan one copy hard left and the other one phase inverted and panned hard right. You can EQ and compress the side channels to shape the sound of the stereo image.

Mid Side is hard to wrap your head around but it really is stereo and sounds pretty nice. It's not hugely popular among rome recordists because figure of 8 microphones aren't very cheap.

Ha 414s were on sale for $800 for a little while! Still only paid $840 for mine a year ago new tho
I'm excited to try this technique again. My last try was very brief and a huge failure. Hard to experiment w a band in the control room with you, especially when it sounds like arse
The panning and phase inversion cleared this up for me greatly. Automate the mid mic to open up/ close a mix between verses and choruses. woowoo!

[havanagilaboy]

I know this is an old thread, but since I am doing some mid/side recording I had a couple questions. If I place 2 violinists, one on each side of the figure 8, will I be able to adjust the volume balance between the 2? Nothing drastic, just minor adjustments. I don't have a stereo pair to work with, but I do have a figure 8 (Behringer B2 Pro) *cringe* and a cardioid (Audio Technica Pro35) *cringe again* so I was going to try and work with a mid/side configuration. I want to capture the acoustic interaction between the 2 fiddles - you can't achieve the same sound by miking them separately - but retain the ability to slightly compensate volume in case the lead isn't loud enough - and they take turns at being the lead.

[antilog]

Recording in M/S should be fine, but you would make the adjustments in the L/R domain.

[Refrec]

Check out this article Refinery Recording Studio in Melbourne Mid-Side – Myth, Magic or Mathematics?
It's an in-depth explanation of all the M-S applications and how they work.
Also it has a tip on how a 600Hz shelf boost can help the final sound.
All the info is easy to understand with pictures, samples and diagrams included throughout. It even has some screenshots from Pro Tools, explaining how to setup internal matrixing.
Enjoy

[duff mcshark]

Originally Posted by havanagilaboy

I know this is an old thread, but since I am doing some mid/side recording I had a couple questions. If I place 2 violinists, one on each side of the figure 8, will I be able to adjust the volume balance between the 2? Nothing drastic, just minor adjustments. I don't have a stereo pair to work with, but I do have a figure 8 (Behringer B2 Pro) *cringe* and a cardioid (Audio Technica Pro35) *cringe again* so I was going to try and work with a mid/side configuration. I want to capture the acoustic interaction between the 2 fiddles - you can't achieve the same sound by miking them separately - but retain the ability to slightly compensate volume in case the lead isn't loud enough - and they take turns at being the lead.

Instead of one on each side, have them stand in between the cardioid and figure of eight side, each one about 45 degrees from the center of the cardioid.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by littlejim84

H

I understand the process in general, but wondered if M/S microphone adaptors exist for a single microphone stand. If so, what and where?

Sanken makes one, Schoeps makes one, probably others.

You can do what you want in a test. Chris E at the Benedum Center has been using a subcardioid capsule in place of the cardioid for years, and this has helped the NPR recordings of the Opera. I have a bunch of mics of all sizes and dimensions, I like the sound best with small diaphragm condensers with the capsules as close together as possible. I don't have any inexpensive SD condensers, so I cannot tell you how well or poorly this might work with a budget choice. I do find the width to be distracting to me with acoustic guitar. I know that it is only a few feet wide. If I record it in M/S and widen it to fill the world, it just doesn't sound right. And if I'm trying to mix it into an ensemble performance, it just gets in the way of the stereo mix. But if I use M/S to capture a number of instruments in section I can use that to my advantage in mixdown.