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KRK ERGO vs JBL MSC1?
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praashekh
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10th December 2009
Old 10th December 2009
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KRK ERGO vs JBL MSC1?

which of these two would be better option for Room correction?? i have treated my room at all key first reflection points.. wanted to get this unit to make my speakers sound More closer to flat.. (im using old aiwa hi-fi speakers for now .. clear sound.. but lots of colouration in the mids - so have to compensate my listening a LOT).. would these units help in making ANy monitoring set-up sound flatter?? should i even go for them??and if yes.. which one??
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10th December 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by praashekh View Post
which of these two would be better option for Room correction?? i have treated my room at all key first reflection points.. wanted to get this unit to make my speakers sound More closer to flat.. (im using old aiwa hi-fi speakers for now .. clear sound.. but lots of colouration in the mids - so have to compensate my listening a LOT).. would these units help in making ANy monitoring set-up sound flatter?? should i even go for them??and if yes.. which one??
What do you mean by "coloring"? Harshness, or smokiness?

Frank
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11th December 2009
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I too am curious about both those units. From what I can gather the KRK appears to be a little more robust than the JBL and also corrects low frequencies up to approx 500Hz whereas the JBL only corrects up to 100Hz. That is a huge difference to my way of thinking, and although its significantly more (at present) makes me lean towards the ERGO. Plus, the JBL has not released Mac compatible software yet.

my .02

jn
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11th December 2009
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Just wanted to add that the price of the Ergo has come down by about $200. Look around because every retailer hasn't changed the price yet. I know that Guitar Center has, and it's $499- down from $699. A few other retailers have the new pricing...check online. I was in Sam Ash today and they have not changed the price yet.
PDC
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11th December 2009
Old 11th December 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John N View Post
I too am curious about both those units. From what I can gather the KRK appears to be a little more robust than the JBL and also corrects low frequencies up to approx 500Hz whereas the JBL only corrects up to 100Hz. That is a huge difference to my way of thinking, and although its significantly more (at present) makes me lean towards the ERGO. Plus, the JBL has not released Mac compatible software yet.

my .02

jn
Neither correct anything. They compensate with generic EQ, which is seldom the sole remedy. What about time and energy? Fix the room, then you will not have to neuter the speaker.
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11th December 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John N View Post
I too am curious about both those units. From what I can gather the KRK appears to be a little more robust than the JBL and also corrects low frequencies up to approx 500Hz whereas the JBL only corrects up to 100Hz. That is a huge difference to my way of thinking, and although its significantly more (at present) makes me lean towards the ERGO. Plus, the JBL has not released Mac compatible software yet.

my .02

jn
According to to this picture from JBL manual it corrects more than just under 100hz.

Matti
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11th December 2009
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Originally Posted by PDC View Post
Neither correct anything. They compensate with generic EQ, which is seldom the sole remedy. What about time and energy? Fix the room, then you will not have to neuter the speaker.
I agree. That's why I asked the question I asked. It's always a better idea to treat the room well, THEN add a correction system if necessary. I know that sounds counter intuitive, but that's the way it works. If you add a correction system before the room is adequately controlled, then the system has to make radical, drastic changes that sound anything but natural. If the room is well-treated, then the system can make broad, shallow changes that make a much bigger impact in terms of translation.

I'm not saying no...I'm just saying that you should probably treat the room a bit more before you do it.

Frank
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praashekh
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11th December 2009
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my room currently is treated pretty Ok.. all the first reflection points have broadband panels... hope that is enough.. the JBL MSC1 sells at about $299.. comparatively a lot cheaper than ERGO..
also i wondered.. if these devices made the sound neutral and 'flat'.. wouldnt people rather buy some cheap monitors like maybe alesis MkII or BX8a etc with these room correction stuff and have a near perfect flat sound after the correction rather than shell out a Lot more cash and go for the high end genelecs, dyns and PMCs? this is a point that i was wondering about..
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11th December 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by praashekh View Post
my room currently is treated pretty Ok.. all the first reflection points have broadband panels... hope that is enough..
I can pretty much guarantee you that it's not. What do you mean by "broad band" panels? 2"? 4"? There's also the ceiling to deal with, the back wall, the corners...

Quote:
Originally Posted by praashekh View Post
the JBL MSC1 sells at about $299.. comparatively a lot cheaper than ERGO..
also i wondered.. if these devices made the sound neutral and 'flat'.. wouldnt people rather buy some cheap monitors like maybe alesis MkII or BX8a etc with these room correction stuff and have a near perfect flat sound after the correction rather than shell out a Lot more cash and go for the high end genelecs, dyns and PMCs? this is a point that i was wondering about..
That's the thing, you're NOT going to get anything even remotely close to the same universe as "flat and neutral". It's just not going to happen. After the room is well treated then you can get a little bit of help in the trouble spots, but room correction software is not useful as a fix *instead* of proper treatment.

Frank
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11th December 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weasel9992 View Post
I can pretty much guarantee you that it's not. What do you mean by "broad band" panels? 2"? 4"? There's also the ceiling to deal with, the back wall, the corners...



Frank
i have dealt with side walls... back walls... ceiling.. and the walls behind the speakers... currently have 4" thick panels.. will be soon removing all n putting 6" ones and bass traps at rear corners and removing the acoustic absorption panels from the back wall and putting a qrd diffusor there.. hope the room is Ok then..
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11th December 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weasel9992 View Post

That's the thing, you're NOT going to get anything even remotely close to the same universe as "flat and neutral". It's just not going to happen. After the room is well treated then you can get a little bit of help in the trouble spots, but room correction software is not useful as a fix *instead* of proper treatment.

Frank
Then whats the Use of those RMC things?? so you Say after I treat my room completely with absorption and diffusion and all then apply the RMC I could get a sound like a Genelec or JBl from a behringer or maudio monitor??
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11th December 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by praashekh View Post
i have dealt with side walls... back walls... ceiling.. and the walls behind the speakers... currently have 4" thick panels.. will be soon removing all n putting 6" ones and bass traps at rear corners and removing the acoustic absorption panels from the back wall and putting a qrd diffusor there.. hope the room is Ok then..
Cool...that sounds like a good plan.


Quote:
Originally Posted by praashekh View Post
Then whats the Use of those RMC things?? so you Say after I treat my room completely with absorption and diffusion and all then apply the RMC I could get a sound like a Genelec or JBl from a behringer or maudio monitor??
No...you're kinda missing the point a little here. The RMC programs, good as they are, are really only designed for cleaning up relatively small issue. Again, they are to be used as a supplement to treatment, not as a substitute. Secondly, the best you can ever hope is to get an even frequency response (to whatever degree the room will allow) and appropriate decay times. The speaker will then sound the way it sounds. You can never make it sound like what it isn't. An Adam A7 will sound like what it's supposed to sound like, which is a different thing than my JBL 4328's. A cheap speaker is still going to have the same problems it would have had otherwise.

Frank
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11th December 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weasel9992 View Post
The RMC programs, good as they are, are really only designed for cleaning up relatively small issue. Again, they are to be used as a supplement to treatment, not as a substitute. Secondly, the best you can ever hope is to get an even frequency response (to whatever degree the room will allow) and appropriate decay times. The speaker will then sound the way it sounds. .

Frank
oh alright... i thought it could make any speaker sound 'flat' no matter how coloured the speaker would be naturally (i read this on some forum once long back).. thats why i wondered why it ws ROOM CORRECTION and Not MONITOR CORRECTION... but it could get the speaker to sound very true and flat if the room is properly treated?? right? also.. what monitor should i go for withthis when i getthe budget later?was thinking of JBL 2328P?? but heard the KRK Rokits 8" were cheaper.. So many options available....
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11th December 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by praashekh View Post
oh alright... i thought it could make any speaker sound 'flat' no matter how coloured the speaker would be naturally (i read this on some forum once long back).. thats why i wondered why it ws ROOM CORRECTION and Not MONITOR CORRECTION... but it could get the speaker to sound very true and flat if the room is properly treated?? right? also.. what monitor should i go for withthis when i getthe budget later?was thinking of JBL 2328P?? but heard the KRK Rokits 8" were cheaper.. So many options available....
All the good, reputable software correction options work great when they have a good room to sample from, and when they have to make small changes here and there.

There are tons and tons of speaker options...lots of good stuff in the $800-$1,000 price range.

Frank
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11th December 2009
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I first used Ergo in an untreated room.
The difference was dramatic.
I then treated the room, (just spot treatments with Auralex, no bass traps) and the difference was not near as much. A also shifted the listening position 90 degrees.

Whenever you do something to the room you have to re-run the correction process. For those that this might not be obvious to do.
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12th December 2009
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but one query.. say a speaker had a peak at maybe 3khz... and a dip at 300hz.. would the RMC make these two 'faults' of the speaker sound 'flat' or near neutral?? so that i would hear a Flat sound?
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12th December 2009
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Bear in mind that if you are running a Mac, JBL will not have the software ready for the MSC1 Mac platform until the spring of 2010. I returned mine.
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12th December 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by praashekh View Post
but one query.. say a speaker had a peak at maybe 3khz... and a dip at 300hz.. would the RMC make these two 'faults' of the speaker sound 'flat' or near neutral?? so that i would hear a Flat sound?
It would try to compensate for the dip or the peak additively or subtractively. The word "flat" really is meaningless; the word "accurate" is far more meaningful.

Frank
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13th December 2009
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Originally Posted by bilco View Post
Bear in mind that if you are running a Mac, JBL will not have the software ready for the MSC1 Mac platform until the spring of 2010. I returned mine.
Using PC.. so hopefully i can use it.. till i ever plan on shifting to Mac.. using cubase sx n sumtimes nuendo now.. do my programming on Reason.
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13th December 2009
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Originally Posted by Weasel9992 View Post
It would try to compensate for the dip or the peak additively or subtractively. The word "flat" really is meaningless; the word "accurate" is far more meaningful.

Frank

Yup.. very true.. Accurate is What im looking for... I wud look for a sound that would be accurate and could translate well on other systems without compensating my listening or my mixing because of inaccuracy.. so.. would these RMC be good?? i mean.. i wouldnt know there Is a peak or dip so i wouldnt know if i should treat it.. And besides The DIP or PEAK would be in the speaker.. so no matter how well i treat the room the speaker would still play it the same way.. Now in this situation, would the MSC1 help?? because it could kinda EQ the sound that is fired out of the speakers.. so will it bring it out accurately?
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13th December 2009
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how do these units deal with modal ringing?
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8th January 2011
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Objective answer:

BOTH boxes ONLY treat frequency resonances between 20hz and 500hz but you have to dig a bit to find this out about the ERGO. Additionally the fact that neither box goes beyond this range makes a lot of sense to me considering you've should have already begun to treat the missing range with acoustic treatments (provided you've done so correctly). Neither is a 'fix' and we all know that, but either can go the extra mile to help 'tame' resonances for which treatment is super expensive and bulky (ie sub 100hz).

The JBL MSC1 is a much better value. It allows you to set delay times, adjust sub polarity, has dedicated sub management and output, attenuate individual outputs, apply a hi and/or low shelf on top of the RMC, and seems more of a work horse all around. Plus its cheaper.

Unfortunately the KRK ERGO is completely or mostly lacking in all of these areas. If you have taken care of the acoustics as best you can and are looking for a little extra resonance management or a monitor processor, the JBL is the way to go IMO. I spoke to KRK engineers about this and they are now aware of the short comings when compared to the JBL, I reckon their R&D team will address these things in the future if they want to remain competitive.
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Last edited by mrbibidy; 27th January 2011 at 01:18 AM.. Reason: found informations relevant to OP
#23
27th January 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemonsqueezer View Post
how do these units deal with modal ringing?
what they do is attenuate the problematic frequencies with eq filters. this isn't the 100% ideal way to 'fix' modal ringing but it is A way to deal with it. When we setup PAs in lager arenas we use eq to reduce frequencies that 'set the room off ringing' in order to use these modes to our advantage and not cause acoustic chaos. Effectively the room becomes PART of the pa when brought under control. You can use this concept when thinking about what one of these boxes will do for your environment. To properly fix these issues you would need to spend a great deal of money installing large heavy traps or fully reconstructing your room. Since this is often not feasible these boxes can go a long way to help provided you've taken some steps to treat what acoustics you can.
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31st January 2011
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I dont understand what are the short comings. the krk can manage freq and phase. That should be enough?
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31st January 2011
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After researching before purchase, IMO, the KRK Ergo is a more capable unit in terms of audio.
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26th March 2011
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I recently purchased the JBL msc1. My room is well treated, but I still get a few low freq room modes. The JBL setup was lengthy, but it paid off. It worked well, and got rid of the resonant freqs.
1 day after I bought it, it stopped working. I returned it, and I am very hesitant to buy it again.
I hope I was just un lucky. It is a good product.
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29th March 2011
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Sucks that yours stopped working.. Did you submit a support request? I had what I thought was a busted clip light and submitted a request. They called me the next day and I later found out it wasn't broken, my old interface was just incapable of outputting enough voltage to clip the inputs on my MSC1. I upgraded my interface and discovered quite quickly they clip light works just fine.

As I said: The ergo doesn't do delay times, and doesn't have an additional user-settable EQ, switchable in/out, for whatever purpose your heart or ear desires. Additoinally, the ergo and the msc1 both only notch resonant frequency below 500hz. Those additional features coupled with its multiple input and output selections make the msc1 a clearly stronger unit.
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29th March 2011
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Have you used both units?
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11th April 2011
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HEY GUYS i am still wondering

HEY guys i got one question for these two room corrections systems.
Do they actually store the correction setting in the hardware?
So that means when you use the monitor-correction all you need to do is pressing the bottom down. Or, does it required the software(plugins) to run with it every time you active it like IK ARC because it sucks with protool.
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11th April 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcc449 View Post
HEY guys i got one question for these two room corrections systems.
Do they actually store the correction setting in the hardware?
So that means when you use the monitor-correction all you need to do is pressing the bottom down. Or, does it required the software(plugins) to run with it every time you active it like IK ARC because it sucks with protool.
No it's all stored on the hardware and you can turn it off with a button press. I believe they actually cover this in the YouTube videos for each product, not positive though. And remember, it's more of a final alteration to finish off an already thought out acoustic treatment. For instance my room is treated and tuned by orientation, the msc1 was the final touch and it's really only doing bass management with a single filter at 50hz cause that was really the only major problem left. So if you already treated you room even a little then definitely consider one of these (I like the msc1, better value, more features, less money). If not, think about some basic treatment first, you may find just that works wonders.

Last edited by mrbibidy; 11th April 2011 at 09:29 AM.. Reason: Spelling.
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