To Amp or to Sim (with caveats)?

[tratledge]

Hey guys,

If this question has been posted here before, please point me in the right direction, but I've been searching all night and haven't found a similar question to mine.

I use Logic 9 as my DAW and I have a Taylor Solidbody (thing rocks). Thing is, I'm into playing rock music in the vein of Dashboard Confessional - I had read he uses some Marshall stack typically on his electric stuff. The sound I love that he has is a very clean kind of crunch. Something with a lot of kick and attack but where the chords aren't muddy at all. You can clearly pick out every note and it just sounds freakin' fantastic to me (your mileage may vary).

So, two questions, the second more important than the first:

1. With a budget up to $1000-1200, what is the best amp that will mimic that kind of sound the best? Please note I don't need anything super powerful and I'd like to avoid a full stack if possible - I'd like to keep my ear drums and keep my roommates and my neighbors from wanting to murder me.

2. Should I even do this? To be quite honest, I have great preamps and good microphones to record an amp speaker/cab with, buuuut.... I don't have a treated room, and never will, really. Should I invest in an amp that has a balanced XLR out, like the Egnater Rebel series, or do I ditch this idea entirely and try to find an amp sim that will do the trick? I'm currently using Logic's Amp Designer, but.... getting that nice clean, powerful sound is REALLY lacking. It just sounds too digital and too fake for the quality I want right now. The upside to it is that I don't have to have an amp, I can record with the cans on, and it's... passable, I guess.

Your thoughts, ladies and gentlemen?

[russbeye]

I love my JCM2000 DSL (50-watts), and it comes in a combo option. I got my head for about $700 used. It is able to mimic a lot of the sounds out there today, as far as crunch is concerned. There are a lot of combos that would would work great between 15-50 watts and within your price range. I suggest you spend some time in some guitar shops in your area and try them out personally. I find calling ahead and bringing my own guitar avoids a lot of problems with the staff. Just remember that the sound you want is developed by a professional guitar tech and a lot more than amp and guitar... But you can come close to what you hear on the CDs with some a little elbow grease.

I also use Guitar Rig 4 for just fleshing out ideas when I don't feel like setting up the entire room at 1am when I get an idea, or when I'm on the road with my MacBook Pro. I actually dig it, after some careful tweaking. You can download the demo on the Native Instruments site and try it out yourself. I used some others, but really dig NI's stuff altogether. You don't get the organic sound from a real amp, but it's doable for some low level work. Heck, you can even through a cabinet impulse on the Space Designer in Logic after the sim to make it a little better (YMMV).

My verdict: Download the Guitar Rig 4 demo and try that one out, and go to your local guitar shop and check out some combos.

[tratledge]

Hey Russ,

Thanks for your reply, but I'm not sure you caught my real question. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough and that's my fault.

I'm going to record the amp - if I have a small 10x10, untreated room, would this be a bad idea and should I just try to get the most out of amp modeling software?

[kittonian]

Take a look at Digidesign's Eleven Rack. Sure, it's an amp sim, but I can attest to the fact that it's darn hard to beat the sounds with the real deal. In fact, I have a bunch of boutique amps with great mics/preamps in a great room. We A/B'd between them and there was such a small difference that we ended up using Eleven quite a bit on the last album I did.

[tratledge]

Originally Posted by kittonian

Take a look at Digidesign's Eleven Rack. Sure, it's an amp sim, but I can attest to the fact that it's darn hard to beat the sounds with the real deal. In fact, I have a bunch of boutique amps with great mics/preamps in a great room. We A/B'd between them and there was such a small difference that we ended up using Eleven quite a bit on the last album I did.

Do you have to use ProTools for that? I'm a Logic guy.

[kafka]

Originally Posted by tratledge

Do you have to use ProTools for that? I'm a Logic guy.

No, it has line level outs, and can work as a standalone.

[aortizjr]

I think you would be better using an amp-sim over using the XLR speaker simulated output on most real amps.

Sims are great for "get the job done" sort of tone. But if you are looking for that rich inspiring tone, a real amp is where it is at.

Now with your room, that could be interesting. Another idea might be to use an iso-speaker box. Or take an un-speaker-simulated line out and use impulses. Then at least you are getting the true tube tone.

With sims, I find that I spend a lot of time dialing and tweaking and things are either too muddy, too harsh, or just sound weird with aliasing and artifacts. Guitar Rig 4 I have been using recently and it is worth trying for sure. Gets the job done. Eleven is good too, and the new Eleven Rack really looks cool. I recently used a GSP1101 with the C48 update on a gig and was really really impressed. I need to get that on a mix and see how it does.

With your budget, I think I would go the real amp or preamp, un-simulated DI out, then use impulse responses for the speaker sim. You will also need a dummy load for the amp.

[MrCrowbar]

# 1 Try recent line 6 amps and pedals. Sounds very decent on stage and they hit the marshall tone pretty well.

Other than that, you can get a Combo Amp as some here suggested, put 1 or 2 mics in front of it and cover the whole thing with a thick blanket to get the room sound away from the mics. Worked very well for my stuff.

[Infrablu]

It sounds like you want some guitar tones that are clean on the edge of break-up with smooth sustain. As mentioned, an good amp sim would be a start since your room is box/square shaped and you don't have treatment. Along with the new Digidesign unit mentioned, the Softube Vintage Amp room collection is a nice sim. If you go the amp route you'll need to isolate a small area for just tracking the amp so a small combo is in order along, with some absorption. The Rebel 20 has great tone but, it's a loud amp although I have not heard it on the 1-watt setting. Another good amp is the Fender Super champ XD a small "Hybrid" combo (tube/modeling) I was very surprised at the smooth saturation I got out of this amp at low volumes for recording or a Vox AC15 for that chimey breakup.

Here's a quick isolation idea: Welcome to sE Electronics

[AfterTheAccident]

In this picture,

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1186/...2be230.jpg?v=0

The other guitarist is using a Bogner Shiva.

In this picture,

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...06_cropped.JPG

It appears it's Bogner Shiva and then a Badcat amp of some sort. Hard to tell.

I own one so I can comment, but that clean, distinct crunch is pretty easy to get out of my Orange AD30.

I don't think the marshall DSL's would be where I'd turn first for that type of tone.

As for Real vs. Sim, if you don't have the room or the amp, then I suggest using Digidesign Eleven. I use the plug in version and I find that when you blend different amp tones using separate tracks, you can get some great sounds. I'd start with blending an AC30 and a JCM800 and see what that gets you.

Problem with that type of tone is it typically takes volume to produce. Not a large amount, but a cranked AC30 isn't a quiet amp. Neither is an AC15. If I were to turn up my Orange AD30 and 2x12 cab, I'm sure the neighbors would be rather pissed.

My suggestion is to use the amp sims. The Eleven rack is a good suggestion, or if your budget allows, try the Fractal AxeFX.

[kludge]

Line 6 Pod Farm is very, very good. It's the first amp sim I've used that gets the feel of a real amp. (hint: Learn to twiddle the knobs, don't stick with their obnoxious "impressive" presets) But that said, I have no problem getting a better sound out of a real amp and mic.

What I'd recommend, though, and this is left field - get a tube amp that has great cleans at moderate volume, and use pedals for the distortion. Modern overdrive/distortion pedals, especially the cutting-edge boutique stuff, can utterly nail amp sounds, at studio or live volumes. I personally own a vintage Boogie Mark I with overdrive so rich you'll think it's made of solid God. But live? I run it clean and use pedals. I'm quite happy with the sounds I get. And I'll use 'em in the studio, too.

I'd start by checking out the ZVex Box of Rock for that powerful-but-clear Marshall sound. You can find the Vexter version of it at Guitar Center. Into a good clean amp (crap amps won't cut it), then miked, it should do what you want. Another nice thing about the clean amp + pedals approach is you can get new flavors just by getting new pedals. Get a few different speakers/cabs, too.

My current fave pedals are a Keeley-modded Rat (it'll do the Appetite for Destruction Slash sound), a HAO Rumble Mod for low-gain, a Skreddy Screwdriver for medium gain, and a treble booster to goose any and all of them. For recording, I like fuzzes and have several, but I don't find they translate as well live.

Also, if you're recording guitar direct, get a really great direct box if you can. It makes a huge difference. Guitars are very sensitive to how they're loaded, and the cheap "instrument" input on your workstation may well just drag your guitar to the ground.

[John Suitcase]

I think your best bet is to DI your guitar, then split it onto 2 or 3 tracks. Insert the Pod Farm plug on each, and try a few different combos. Add a little delay and panning, and see what you can brew up. I suspect an AC30 type sound blended with a very clean direct tone compressed heavily will get you real close...

[ManOnAMission]

Originally Posted by kludge

Line 6 Pod Farm is very, very good. It's the first amp sim I've used that gets the feel of a real amp. (hint: Learn to twiddle the knobs, don't stick with their obnoxious "impressive" presets) But that said, I have no problem getting a better sound out of a real amp and mic.

What I'd recommend, though, and this is left field - get a tube amp that has great cleans at moderate volume, and use pedals for the distortion. Modern overdrive/distortion pedals, especially the cutting-edge boutique stuff, can utterly nail amp sounds, at studio or live volumes. I personally own a vintage Boogie Mark I with overdrive so rich you'll think it's made of solid God. But live? I run it clean and use pedals. I'm quite happy with the sounds I get. And I'll use 'em in the studio, too.

I'd start by checking out the ZVex Box of Rock for that powerful-but-clear Marshall sound. You can find the Vexter version of it at Guitar Center. Into a good clean amp (crap amps won't cut it), then miked, it should do what you want. Another nice thing about the clean amp + pedals approach is you can get new flavors just by getting new pedals. Get a few different speakers/cabs, too.

My current fave pedals are a Keeley-modded Rat (it'll do the Appetite for Destruction Slash sound), a HAO Rumble Mod for low-gain, a Skreddy Screwdriver for medium gain, and a treble booster to goose any and all of them. For recording, I like fuzzes and have several, but I don't find they translate as well live.

Also, if you're recording guitar direct, get a really great direct box if you can. It makes a huge difference. Guitars are very sensitive to how they're loaded, and the cheap "instrument" input on your workstation may well just drag your guitar to the ground.

This is good advice,, there is nothing magical about distortion circuits,, some of the great recordings come from pedals.

High output pickups through any distortion are usually tighter and sharper. They sound metal.

Lo fi grunge sounds happen when you distort low ouput pickups.